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On 27/03/2020 at 21:19, Creative Midfielder said:

Well if Gordon Brown's response to the 2008 crisis is any guide to what they would have done this time around then the answer is very clearly yes, and not only that they would have done so more promptly and more competently.

This is not a Government with a plan, it is a Government in panic mode making it all up on the hoof because they ignored all the warning signs and made no preparations until it was too late.

I don't think there is much comparison between the Labour Party under Blair/Brown and this current incarnation.

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Posted (edited)

There seems to be two opinions on this.

  1) the government is doing well in what are unprecedented circumstances

2) the government has ignored previous advice, run down the health system for years, given misleading or ambiguous advice and botched the logistics.

Did anyone who subscribes to (1) not vote for a right/right of centre party in 2019?

Likewise does anyone who subscribes to (2) not vote for a left/left of centre party?

Is this war just a continuation of politics by other means?

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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46 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

There seems to be two opinions on this.

  1) the government is doing well in what are unprecedented circumstances

2) the government has ignored previous advice, run down the health system for years, given misleading or ambiguous advice and botched the logistics.

Did anyone who subscribes to (1) not vote for a right/right of centre party in 2019?

Likewise does anyone who subscribes to (2) not vote for a left/left of centre party?

Is this war just a continuation of politics by other means?

 

Sorry BB, but the situation is far more complex than the two alternatives that you give.

I subscribe to a view that the situation is unprecedented and that the government was initially slow to respond. This was partly due to initially underestimating the scale of the issue and partly because of an attempt to highly centralise the process of govt. 

It is not, imo, a left-right issue as imo, Johnson was already showing signs of becoming the most left-wing PM since Harold Wilson.

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

 It is not, imo, a left-right issue as imo, Johnson was already showing signs of becoming the most left-wing PM since Harold Wilson.

Johnson doesn't know his Einar Aas from his Assou-Ekotu. That's the problem. He is a man who has been educated and employed well beyond his level of intelligence. The medical people who he has stood alongside him make him look an intellectual pygmy by comparison. Yes, he can facilitate the briefings and generally remember his lines, but that's about it.

He may actually be coming out of the Covid-19 rather well in terms of popular image. I suspect his inner character is showing, and he can come across as amiably good egg, wanting to do the right thing, out of his depth, but desperate to not cause disaster. It's impossible not to feel empathy for him. He is in a living nightmare. But ultimately his loyalties surely still lie with the born-to-rule Etonian financiers who have previously guided him. Rest assured that Priti Patel and Dom Cummins will be planning their next move.

Based on performance, how could Johnson ever be trusted to actually make rapid strong and instinctive decisions when it really mattered?

And on the question of the Tory treatment of the NHS, speak to anyone employed by the NHS, absolutely anyone, to appreciate how valued they have felt under the Tories. I am not saying we could have planned better for the current situation, because the dreadful thing about Continuity Planning is that no one can foresee the way the dice roll, but the NHS could have been maintained as a more robust entity.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Pugin said:

Johnson doesn't know his Einar Aas from his Assou-Ekotu. That's the problem. He is a man who has been educated and employed well beyond his level of intelligence....

I will put you I  the didn't vote tory, think  he is doing a bad job category then!

Edited by Barbe bleu

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Badger said:

Sorry BB, but the situation is far more complex than the two alternatives that you give.

Of course it is far more complicated than the two alternatives. There are, however , few people, I would guess, whose opinion on the government response deviates much from  their previous opinion on the government.

Edited by Barbe bleu
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Government got off to a slow start on CV19 but are doing a pretty good job now.

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31 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Of course it is far more complicated than the two alternatives. There are, however , few people, I would guess, whose opinion on the government response deviates much from  their previous opinion on the government.

That would suggest that it doesn't matter how well the govt does - those that support it, will agree with whatever it does and those that disagree with it will be against whatever it does!

I know that a few might fall into that category but surely most people have interest in what is going on? 

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8 hours ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

People seem to prefer Johnson telling lies to Corbyn telling the truth.

 

here is Bertie the Buffoon demonstrating why he is such a clueless idiot

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-boris-johnson-positive-test-health-advice-shaking-hands-hospital-hancock-a9430231.html

what is happening now is in spite of him, not because of him

the NHS, police and other civil authorities have taken over and are organising this - and hopefully they will find a way of keeping this idiot in number 10 with no means of causing further damage

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, Bill said:

 

the NHS, police and other civil authorities have taken over and are organising this - and hopefully they will find a way of keeping this idiot in number 10 with no means of causing further damage

Isn't that the way it should be?

Number 10 gives very high level strategic direction  it leaves it up to others to implement?  

Sometimes it pays to have  lazy leader as they will leave the details to the people who know the details.

Edited by Barbe bleu

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4 hours ago, Badger said:

That would suggest that it doesn't matter how well the govt does - those that support it, will agree with whatever it does and those that disagree with it will be against whatever it does!

I know that a few might fall into that category but surely most people have interest in what is going on? 

This.

Bit like us lot saying anything ITFC does is good and vice-versa with their lot about us. Whichever tribe you're in there'll be only grudging praise at best.

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7 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

Bit like us lot saying anything ITFC does is good and vice-versa with their lot about us. Whichever tribe you're in there'll be only grudging praise at best.

Yes, I think this debate is remarkably tribal.  

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19 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

 

Isn't that the way it should be?

Number 10 gives very high level strategic direction  it leaves it up to others to implement?  

Sometimes it pays to have  lazy leader as they will leave the details to the people who know the details.

David Cameron was a lazy leader. He's now hiding in a shed.

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4 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

This.

Bit like us lot saying anything ITFC does is good and vice-versa with their lot about us. Whichever tribe you're in there'll be only grudging praise at best.

err no, as I don't think medical advice coming from both our experts and those at the WHO is partisan views which supposdly reflects how they voted in the UK

neither do I think reasoned croticism from such diverse characters as Jeremy\Hunt and Piers Morgan can be said to be based on their political leanings

the treality is Johnson and his assorted idiots got this wrong repeatedly (see handshaking), but the bigots presume that anyone pointing this out is doing it puerely to score points - much as with their usual whataboutery, so the obvious has to be denied

which means no comment can be accepted in regard to the underfinding of theNHS, the lack of nurses and medical staff in general not equipment - so we have the bigots re-enacting the Parrot Sketch - however the reserve equipment now being drawn upom os that which was stockpiled to cope with shortages after brexit.................which rather suggests the government didn't believe the misleading guff after all

quelle surprise

 

 

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18 hours ago, Van wink said:

Government got off to a slow start on CV19 but are doing a pretty good job now.

I have to declare my bias as a natural lefty, but trying to be even-handed, what is it about the job they're doing now that you think is pretty good?

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12 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Yes, I think this debate is remarkably tribal.  

If debate was purely tribal it would mean that nobody ever changed their minds which clearly is not the case. Of course, some people remain attached to views that they have always had but in most cases opinions evolve over time. 

The comparison with football is effective here. I would argue that nobody changes their mind and becomes a Norwich supporter having supported Ipswich and vice versa. This is not the case with important political issues.

e.g. David Cameron caricatured Brexit/ UKIP supporters as "nutters" at one stage but within a decade it became Conservative party policy, to the extent that you were kicked out of Parliament if you opposed it.

e.g. The govt was elected in 2010 with an explicit aim of running a budget surplus by 2014. This policy has been totally abandoned in a decade.

Opinions change as a result of argument and policy changes very significantly over time. On the key issues of the last decade we have seen a complete turn around.

Brexit has changed from being a minority opinion into the new orthodoxy with a clear majority: I would be amazed if the Labour  Party campaigned to rejoin the EU in 2024 - the argument has been won by Brexit advocates. Equally, arguments for eliminating the deficit and running a surplus, let alone of paying down debt have disappeared and will not imo resurface for the 2024 election: those arguing for fiscal intervention have one this argument.

On this particular issue, my best guess is that in the future we will mostly agree that the govt response was too slow and that we were under-prepared and we will learn from this and respond differently to future pandemics.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Bill said:

err no, as I don't think medical advice coming from both our experts and those at the WHO is partisan views which supposdly reflects how they voted in the UK

So you think that criticism or support for the government is equally spread across all voter groups and that there is no correlation between vociferous support or rejection of brexit and stated opinion on the handling of this crisis?

I think that this sub thread has run its course.  I remain of the opinion that everyone's take on the handling of this crisis is informed by their prior view of this government.  The less strident and vocal the prior opinion the less fixed is the current opinion.

This would be an interesting case study on the psychology of opinion forming.  

 

Edited by Barbe bleu
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Even handed perspective. 

What the government got wrong. Too slow to respond, allowing things like Cheltenham to carry on. Still not enough testing and the figures they say are different to reality. 

What the government got right. Sunak's budget was necessary and welcome, although some are still needing assistance desperately. The building of a hospital in a couple of weeks. And getting our brilliant engineers and producers on side to build ventilators. 

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2 hours ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

I have to declare my bias as a natural lefty, but trying to be even-handed, what is it about the job they're doing now that you think is pretty good?

flattening the curve

financial package

 

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3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

flattening the curve

financial package

 

I'd agree with this on the positive side.

On the negative side, lack of testing and protective equipment.

I disagree with BB - I don't think that it is "tribal" although I think he has decided to disengage from the argument.

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20 hours ago, Badger said:

That would suggest that it doesn't matter how well the govt does - those that support it, will agree with whatever it does and those that disagree with it will be against whatever it does!

I know that a few might fall into that category but surely most people have interest in what is going on? 

Check out the poll published in the Corona thread on the other football forum. 50% of Labour voters think Johnson is doing a good job. 

A lot of the criticism of the government is coming from social media activists and isn't a reflection of the views of the country as a whole

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2 minutes ago, Badger said:

I'd agree with this on the positive side.

On the negative side, lack of testing and protective equipment.

I disagree with BB - I don't think that it is "tribal" although I think he has decided to disengage from the argument.

On the PPE I'm still not sure if its a lack of supply or logistics, either way its not good enough atm and I dont think anyone would disagree with that.

Lack of testing I wouldn't necessarily blame them for, they are making big efforts to upscale this.

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12 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Check out the poll published in the Corona thread on the other football forum. 50% of Labour voters think Johnson is doing a good job. 

A lot of the criticism of the government is coming from social media activists and isn't a reflection of the views of the country as a whole

Which suggests that views are NOT tribal as BB suggests, but quite fluid. Whether the 50% thinks the same in a few weeks remains to be seen.

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Lets see what happens next time the Tories try to cap NHS spending and wages... still you can make it alright by clapping for two minutes on a balcony...

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4 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Lets see what happens next time the Tories try to cap NHS spending and wages... still you can make it alright by clapping for two minutes on a balcony...

Yes but Boris Johnson had already moved away from this policy before the corona virus crisis hit. You can't blame Johnson for Cameron/ Clegg's mistakes. 

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2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Yes but Boris Johnson had already moved away from this policy before the corona virus crisis hit. You can't blame Johnson for Cameron/ Clegg's mistakes. 

Err..  what party did Boris belong to when the coalition was in power? Did he follow the party whip? Yes I can blame the idiot for policies that are now costing nhs staff their lives..3 so far

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

A lot of the criticism of the government is coming from social media activists and isn't a reflection of the views of the country as a whole

Social media activists won this government's term in office!    Much of it promoted, even pushed out there by the Conservatives who have all the finances and backing of big businesses (in whose interests they operate) ........  the vilification of Corbyn being typical!    No, i'm not a lefty but that is fact!     These statements are so ironic though!     Talking of the views of the country as a whole, refer back to FCL's very true comment earlier 'People seem to prefer Johnson telling lies to Corbyn telling the truth'.

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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