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3 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

So you think that criticism or support for the government is equally spread across all voter groups and that there is no correlation between vociferous support or rejection of brexit and stated opinion on the handling of this crisis?

I think that this sub thread has run its course.  I remain of the opinion that everyone's take on the handling of this crisis is informed by their prior view of this government.  The less strident and vocal the prior opinion the less fixed is the current opinion.

This would be an interesting case study on the psychology of opinion forming.  

 

Indeed. On the whole, I agree. Most (not all) minds will already be entrenched. Confirmation bias will only add to this.

OTBC

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49 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Err..  what party did Boris belong to when the coalition was in power? Did he follow the party whip? Yes I can blame the idiot for policies that are now costing nhs staff their lives..3 so far

1. I don't think that Boris was in Parliament was in Parliament when all the coalition cuts took place? 

2. Even if he were, "following the whip" is the norm in politics, even if internally you are fighting against a policy. I think that politicians should be judged by what they do in power rather than what their party has happened to do at some stage during their political lifetime. In 1983, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown both stood on a Labour manifesto that supported leaving the EU - does this mean that they were anti-Europeans?

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3 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Indeed. On the whole, I agree. Most (not all) minds will already be entrenched. Confirmation bias will only add to this.

OTBC

Do you have any evidence to support this view?

RTB cited a poll saying that 50% of labour voters thought the govt was doing a good job at the present, which would seem to contradict your view.

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

Which suggests that views are NOT tribal as BB suggests, but quite fluid. Whether the 50% thinks the same in a few weeks remains to be seen.

 

Just now, Badger said:

Do you have any evidence to support this view?

RTB cited a poll saying that 50% of labour voters thought the govt was doing a good job at the present, which would seem to contradict your view.

Oh yes I do...

Polling from 27th March:

Support for government's actions during coronavirus:

% of people who voted in the 2019 election that said they thought they were doing 'very well'

41% of Tory voters

8% of Labour voters

16% of Lib Dem voters

****

14% of remain voters

35% of leave voters

OTBC

 

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Just now, Mello Yello said:

Is Sadiq Khan (Lab) doing a better job as Mayor of London, than Boris (Con) did?.....

I don't live in London so not sure how I could judge. Not even sure whether the Mayor has that much real power over most aspects of Londoner's lives - except transport and possibly policing and even then constrained by national politics?

 

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Just now, Badger said:

I don't live in London so not sure how I could judge. Not even sure whether the Mayor has that much real power over most aspects of Londoner's lives - except transport and possibly policing and even then constrained by national politics?

 

I lived in London under both of them- generally, I think most people were pretty happy with Khan. Johnson seemed to be largely associated with expensive vanity projects. 

Think Khan did the wrong thing with the tube services though.

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5 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

 

Oh yes I do...

Polling from 27th March:

Support for government's actions during coronavirus:

% of people who voted in the 2019 election that said they thought they were doing 'very well'

41% of Tory voters

8% of Labour voters

16% of Lib Dem voters

****

14% of remain voters

35% of leave voters

OTBC

 

I don't have your poll but this suggests that Labour and liberal voters have been very non tribal on the issue. A majority of both parties think that the govt has done either very or quite well on this issue. Lib Dem voters in particular were vehemently anti- Brexit but two thirds of them think the govt has done well.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/03/27/covid-19-support-government-reaction-swells

Voters-01.png

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26 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Social media activists won this government's term in office!    Much of it promoted, even pushed out there by the Conservatives who have all the finances and backing of big businesses (in whose interests they operate) ........  the vilification of Corbyn being typical!    No, i'm not a lefty but that is fact!     These statements are so ironic though!     Talking of the views of the country as a whole, refer back to FCL's very true comment earlier 'People seem to prefer Johnson telling lies to Corbyn telling the truth'.

Media activists my bottom hole.

Corbyn vilified himself every time he opened his nasty, vindictive, mean, bitter little mouth.

Corbyn doesn't lie when he says this is not a perfect world.

He lies when he says he can make it so.

 

Edited by ron obvious

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14 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't have your poll but this suggests that Labour and liberal voters have been very non tribal on the issue. A majority of both parties think that the govt has done either very or quite well on this issue. Lib Dem voters in particular were vehemently anti- Brexit but two thirds of them think the govt has done well.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/03/27/covid-19-support-government-reaction-swells

Voters-01.png

Even using your figures, do the Labour and Lib Dem numbers match the Tories? No - nowhere near. My numbers, which are actually from the same poll, show an even bigger difference for those who are very happy with the government. 

But let's use yours - taking your figures for the country as a whole, looking at 2019 voting figures, it roughly means 970,000 Tories aren't happy with the governments handling of the virus, while  4.5 million Labour voters aren't happy. 

Bit of a difference. Just a tad tribal; as a lot of the posts on this thread clearly show.

OTBC

 

Edited by Disco Dales Jockstrap
Looked at the wrong election!

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24 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't live in London so not sure how I could judge. Not even sure whether the Mayor has that much real power over most aspects of Londoner's lives - except transport and possibly policing and even then constrained by national politics?

 

I would never live in London......Not for me thank-you.....Don't mind the occasional jaunt and night stops down into the 'Smoke' for various entertainment reasons and family visits.....But actually live there?....Noooooooo!...... 

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

1. I don't think that Boris was in Parliament was in Parliament when all the coalition cuts took place? 

2. Even if he were, "following the whip" is the norm in politics, even if internally you are fighting against a policy. I think that politicians should be judged by what they do in power rather than what their party has happened to do at some stage during their political lifetime. In 1983, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown both stood on a Labour manifesto that supported leaving the EU - does this mean that they were anti-Europeans?

Boris is a Tory he supported cuts to the NHS 100%, to deny that is just stupid

Edited by Kenny Foggo

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28 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

I would never live in London......Not for me thank-you.....Don't mind the occasional jaunt and night stops down into the 'Smoke' for various entertainment reasons and family visits.....But actually live there?....Noooooooo!...... 

London is without doubt the greatest, open minded, fantastic City in the world. It's takes a certain attitude to love London.

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13 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Boris is a Tory he supported cuts to the NHS 100%, to deny that is just stupid

Didn't he cut the fire service while London mayor? 

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10 minutes ago, Herman said:

Didn't he cut the fire service while London mayor? 

The Tories cut the fire service, the police service (20'000 less) and stopped the NHS staff getting any rise above 1% effectively making the staff poorer year on year.. hence why the massive shortages compounded by Patel's criteria of having to earn £25k to come here, meaning they can not plug the gap with foreign workers... Now they need them desperately they are falling over themselves to praise them. Makes me want to vomit! All Boris has to do to con idiots into thinking he is doing a good job is look slightly less a bumbling prat and not make some witty gaff in Latin....

Edited by Kenny Foggo
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1 hour ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Bit of a difference. Just a tad tribal; as a lot of the posts on this thread clearly show.

 

Certainly a bit of a difference - but a very weak tribe! More than half of the tribe think that the opposition is doing a good job with the vehemently pro-EU Lib Dems being 2 to 1 pro-govt.

I'm sorry, this really does not support an argument that peoples' decisions have been made purely by where they stand on other issues - indeed quite the reverse: you are more likely to support the govt's actions than oppose them however you voted. 

 

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1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Boris is a Tory he supported cuts to the NHS 100%, to deny that is just stupid

Blair and Brown supported Labour party policy on leaving the EU in 1983 - are they anti-EU?

Judge people on what they do, not on something they had to say but not implement for the sake of their career development.  

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Media activists my bottom hole.

Corbyn vilified himself every time he opened his nasty, vindictive, mean, bitter little mouth.

Corbyn doesn't lie when he says this is not a perfect world.

He lies when he says he can make it so.

 

What game were you watching!     The Tories spent something like £5m on propaganda compared to Labours £200K!      How else do you think they were able to mask all their lies!    Trust you agree that regardless of Labour, the Tories lied and lied and lied and threw in a tiny bit of massive bulls**t during that campaign.     Recommend 'The Great Hack' on Netflix to anyone easily influenced by social media - scary how the public are so easily manipulated by the wealthy.

Going back to the point, I wasn't the one that brought up Media activists!    Just commenting on the actual influence they had!    For the record, I'm no Corbynite, he couldn't fight his corner, was weak and thus not leadership material but I prefer to make my own mind up rather than be taken in by all the garbage that's put out there.      

Edited by ged in the onion bag
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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Media activists my bottom hole.

 

 

I'd say you have you're gander up Ron 😉

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1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

London is without doubt the greatest, open minded, fantastic City in the world. It's takes a certain attitude to love London.

I must have an attitude problem then.....Maybe I have one leg slightly longer (or shorter) than the other?........

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It is merely a case of one side being in denial while the other doesn't have to be.

Diane Abbott gets figures wrong in an interview, Boris Johnson says it's OK to shake hands during this pandemic,  Note the response to each.

The shortage of equipment was part of a continuous programme of cuts by Tory ministers. The shortage could have been relieved to an extent by joining an EU buying/supply action. One that was supposedly missed as the email was not received by the UK. Which turns out to be yet another Johnson lie, as

"British officials took part in four meetings where EU projects to bulk-buy medical kit were discussed – the earliest in January.........."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/uk-discussed-joint-eu-plan-to-buy-covid-19-medical-supplies-say-officials#img-1

Does anyone think had that have been Labour then certain sections of the media would have been all over this - that the usual suspects on here would now be bleating away. Would their shrieking not reach record levels if it were Dianne Abbott behind this ?

"Frontline doctors have told The Independent they have been gagged from speaking out about shortages of protective equipment as they treat coronavirus patients – with some claiming managers have threatened their careers. Staff have been warned not to make any comments about shortages on social media, as well as avoiding talking to journalists, while NHS England has taken over the media operations for many NHS hospitals and staff."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nhs-uk-doctors-gagged-england-a9433171.html

The tribal lines are simply those who think the truth is important, is an intergral part of democracy and so should be fought for at every point  And those who don't.  Because those who are being deceived are not a wartime enemy ..... but us. And those aiding and abetting them are just as guilty of attacking democracy as are those they fawn over.

Where now bigots your bleats about freedom of speech when you see what is being done to NHS straff ?

 

 

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Hello Badger! :classic_biggrin: You aren't going to let me rest are you!!! Man, I'm going to have to bring out the big guns!!!

7 hours ago, Badger said:

Certainly a bit of a difference - but a very weak tribe! More than half of the tribe think that the opposition is doing a good job with the vehemently pro-EU Lib Dems being 2 to 1 pro-govt.

From the same polling you quoted:

Leave voters:  72% net positive towards the governments actions.

Remain voters: 32% net positive towards the governments actions.

40% difference, based on one issue. Tribal? 🤔

7 hours ago, Badger said:

I'm sorry, this really does not support an argument that peoples' decisions have been made purely by where they stand on other issues 

...and this is where we need to be very careful with discussions of this nature - shifting parameters. I certainly didn't say that 'peoples' decisions have been made purely by where they stand on other issues' .

I did say that most minds **not all** are entrenched in their previous views of the government. Clearly some, however they voted, look at all the evidence and draw their own conclusions. Again, that is clear from some of the comments on this board - yours included may I say. You seem very fair.

Again using your polls: 93% of Tories, 44% of Labour and 34% of Lib Dems have gone 'tribal' shall we say. 171 out of 300 (57%).  I can''t be bothered to work our how many millions that is (sorry) but clearly its most of the voting population that voted for them collectively, taking into account their general election performances. It's important to look at the tribal aspect from all ways, and all parties. I think some of the more 'vocal' respondents on here are clearly from the Labour fold but clearly Tories can be every bit as tribal (if not more so, according to the figures).

I also agreed with what Barbe bleu said, that it is not the case that "criticism or support for the government is equally spread across all voter groups"

Criticism or support for the government is clearly NOT equally spread across all voter groups - if it was, those graphs for each political party would be pretty much the same. Much the same would apply for the remain/leave stats I gave earlier. But they aren't the same. They are significantly different, way beyond any margin of error you could put on the polling.

7 hours ago, Badger said:

indeed quite the reverse: you are more likely to support the govt's actions than oppose them however you voted. 

True - but if indeed there is no tribalism, why is there any difference in the parties voters at all, let alone a significant one? 3.5 million voters difference between the amounts of Tory and Labour voters who think the government aren't doing well. That's no small fry. Nearly all Tories think they are doing great; about half of Labour voters don't think they are.

And now I need to rest my brain!!! Good debate Badger! 👍 It's all opinions after all....based somewhat on tribalism, obviously. 😉

I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Stay safe. 

OTBC

Edited by Disco Dales Jockstrap

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42 minutes ago, Bill said:

Where now bigots...

Sigh.

You call anyone who doesn't agree with what you think a bigot.

Look up irony in the dictionary; you'll find it next to goldy and bronzy.

OTBC

  • Haha 1

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It is not about agreeing with me, as everything was a statement of fact

the use of the word bigot is in reference to those who choose not to accept fact.....or truth

as with Johnson's recorded comments on handwashing and on the previously denied meetings with the EU on 'combined purchasing'

but do carry on, whoever you are

my posts are not intended to chage the behaviour of your sort

merely to expose it

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5 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

What game were you watching!     The Tories spent something like £5m on propaganda compared to Labours £200K!      How else do you think they were able to mask all their lies!    Trust you agree that regardless of Labour, the Tories lied and lied and lied and threw in a tiny bit of massive bulls**t during that campaign.     Recommend 'The Great Hack' on Netflix to anyone easily influenced by social media - scary how the public are so easily manipulated by the wealthy.

Going back to the point, I wasn't the one that brought up Media activists!    Just commenting on the actual influence they had!    For the record, I'm no Corbynite, he couldn't fight his corner, was weak and thus not leadership material but I prefer to make my own mind up rather than be taken in by all the garbage that's put out there.      

Sorry I judge others to be as bright as me. I believe nothing without corroboration & I believe most people are the same.

I know many people you might not regard as not very intelligent & they display a huge amount of scepticism.

Generally people trust their own life experiences over what they're told . They're not the gullible fools you seem to think.

 

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Corbyn vilified himself every time he opened his nasty, vindictive, mean, bitter little mouth.

Give it a rest, the bloke would have been history now if it weren't for the virus. He did open his mouth a lot whereas Boris let his cronies do it for him. And now he has conveniently for him, got the virus.

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16 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Generally people trust their own life experiences over what they're told . They're not the gullible fools you seem to think.

Given that elections are fought on what voters are told then that falls flat in it's ar se immediately.

If it was down to supposed 'life experiences; then huge sums of money would not be spent and elections, nor would non UK residents who own newspapers want to use them to tell folk stuff.

As some russkie said the average person is only interested in 'bread and circuses' and "“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

I expect you will tell us all that it was not voter ignorance that had so many believing that 79m Turks were about to come to the UK, or that £350m would be given to the NHS each week (where that now ?). Whereas the NHS  was suffering cuts in it's funding and staff. And was the lack of complaint from the average voter because they were being told otherwise ?

 

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DDJ said it far better than I ever could!

I didn't k ow about these polls but I am not wholly surprised by them. Whether we like it or not we are all to some extent prisoners of our previous opinions, actions and decisions.  Looking at a novel situation (and this is about as novel as any situation could be) without without the weight of our history is still very hard 

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6 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

DDJ said it far better than I ever could!

I didn't k ow about these polls but I am not wholly surprised by them. Whether we like it or not we are all to some extent prisoners of our previous opinions, actions and decisions.  Looking at a novel situation (and this is about as novel as any situation could be) without without the weight of our history is still very hard 

we are all to some extent violent, dishonest, greedy, selfish etc

humans have a great capacity for behaving in many ways

however that does not vindicate disco's guff, which amounts to no more than a quite hamfisted attempt to deflect from Johnson's incompetence by suggesting  that evidence of that is just one side trying to score points

and that people are not capable of reasoned thought over and above some supposed tribal allegiance - which is absolute bollox, as why would so much be spent on 'propoganda' ?

Johnson's limitations have been exposed, as was always going to happen at some point, and the real lesson from that is why some feel the need to try to deny what is obvious to the rest of us

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