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sonyc

National League null and void

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There seems to be two different and unaligned threads to the EPL (and EFL) questions.

From a purely financial point of view the EPL want the full games played and aired for Sky etc. A cut down shoot out or similar would not meet Sky's criteria. Sky and the EPL don't care who's relegated or promoted. It's the games that need to be played in full for revenue.

Secondly - we have the supporters - those that don't really care about the remaining games but for the teams to be promoted based on the table as is.

Both are of course living in cloud cuckoo land.

Even if the peak of the virus passes by May we will still be on 'social distancing' mode i.e 6 foot apart right though the summer into the autumn. No 'team' games can operate let alone provide any good example if they do - until such rules are relaxed.

Long and short is the best the EPL can do is scrap this season, negotiate with Sky (who after all themselves don't want to kill the golden goose) and worry - as they should be - if the 2021/22 season will be unaffected and the far bigger financial hit that follows if it is!

Should in straightened circumstances clubs fail in the EPL or EFL then clubs such as Leeds (if indeed they themselves are financially sound) could be invited to fill any gaps and so on down the leagues. Yes it will be a long overdue football reset & shake-out!

Did cross my mind that even Celtic etc could join but that has other issues.

Present season is null and void. Accept it, sort out finances and move on.

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There is only one realistic solution that covers all bases and that is to pick up the season where it left off - maybe in the Autumn - or whenever conditions allow. That is going to dictate the timescale for next season - finish the season, in Oct/Nov, start the new season in December...or finish the season Nov/Dec, start the new season in January......or whatever. 

It is even possible that football might not start again this year and there being such a small time gap to fit everything in, that next season might not happen. In that scenario, the probability would be that we could finish this season's games in Jan/Feb, Feb/March, or March/April, with the next full season starting in August 2021, with all promotion and relegation issues sorted quite naturally.  Yes, I know there are financial/contract issues with that, but everyone is in the same boat - it's just part of the overall picture that is affecting all businesses and all of us.

Timescale and plans cannot be made at the moment - simply postpone the games this season until they can be played, then fit next season in after that - if possible - and if not, scrap 20/21 season and start next season in August 2021. 

 

 

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If football applies its own rules for abandoned matches to the current situation, then, as I understand it, they will attempt to get the outstanding fixtures played. If they can't, the season's void.

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28 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

There is only one realistic solution that covers all bases and that is to pick up the season where it left off - maybe in the Autumn - or whenever conditions allow. That is going to dictate the timescale for next season - finish the season, in Oct/Nov, start the new season in December...or finish the season Nov/Dec, start the new season in January......or whatever. 

It is even possible that football might not start again this year and there being such a small time gap to fit everything in, that next season might not happen. In that scenario, the probability would be that we could finish this season's games in Jan/Feb, Feb/March, or March/April, with the next full season starting in August 2021, with all promotion and relegation issues sorted quite naturally.  Yes, I know there are financial/contract issues with that, but everyone is in the same boat - it's just part of the overall picture that is affecting all businesses and all of us.

Timescale and plans cannot be made at the moment - simply postpone the games this season until they can be played, then fit next season in after that - if possible - and if not, scrap 20/21 season and start next season in August 2021. 

 

 

The one thing I think both the EPL and I currently agree on is that this next season can't be affected or unduly delayed by this failed one.

Any 'extension' of this season beyond July would rapidly and catastrophically multiply up all the financial and legal issues as if these were a virus themselves. Won't happen!

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Posted (edited)

Given there are much lower attendances at the respective leagues which have been null and voided, there would be absolute uproar if the top tiers games can be concluded before the start of the season, yet theirs can’t (safe distancing).

Personally, I think they’ve been the smaller sacrificial lamb just to test the waters and get a gauge of what sort of legal reaction they might receive, albeit on a relative larger level, if the top tiers have to follow suite.

Edited by Alex Moss
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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

There is only one realistic solution that covers all bases and that is to pick up the season where it left off - maybe in the Autumn - or whenever conditions allow. That is going to dictate the timescale for next season - finish the season, in Oct/Nov, start the new season in December...or finish the season Nov/Dec, start the new season in January......or whatever. 

It is even possible that football might not start again this year and there being such a small time gap to fit everything in, that next season might not happen. In that scenario, the probability would be that we could finish this season's games in Jan/Feb, Feb/March, or March/April, with the next full season starting in August 2021, with all promotion and relegation issues sorted quite naturally.  Yes, I know there are financial/contract issues with that, but everyone is in the same boat - it's just part of the overall picture that is affecting all businesses and all of us.

Timescale and plans cannot be made at the moment - simply postpone the games this season until they can be played, then fit next season in after that - if possible - and if not, scrap 20/21 season and start next season in August 2021. 

 

 

To finish the season after June requires every club in every league to maintain the exact same playing squad. Players contracts will expire, players will have signed pre contract agreements and transfer deals will already be in place for many signings. So no, it far from covers all bases.

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

There is only one realistic solution that covers all bases and that is to pick up the season where it left off - maybe in the Autumn - or whenever conditions allow. That is going to dictate the timescale for next season - finish the season, in Oct/Nov, start the new season in December...or finish the season Nov/Dec, start the new season in January......or whatever. 

It is even possible that football might not start again this year and there being such a small time gap to fit everything in, that next season might not happen. In that scenario, the probability would be that we could finish this season's games in Jan/Feb, Feb/March, or March/April, with the next full season starting in August 2021, with all promotion and relegation issues sorted quite naturally.  Yes, I know there are financial/contract issues with that, but everyone is in the same boat - it's just part of the overall picture that is affecting all businesses and all of us.

Timescale and plans cannot be made at the moment - simply postpone the games this season until they can be played, then fit next season in after that - if possible - and if not, scrap 20/21 season and start next season in August 2021. 

 

 

Makes sense LDC, this could also be linked in with the World Cup in Qatar when the season will effectively be cut in half

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

There is only one realistic solution that covers all bases and that is to pick up the season where it left off - maybe in the Autumn - or whenever conditions allow. That is going to dictate the timescale for next season - finish the season, in Oct/Nov, start the new season in December...or finish the season Nov/Dec, start the new season in January......or whatever. 

It is even possible that football might not start again this year and there being such a small time gap to fit everything in, that next season might not happen. In that scenario, the probability would be that we could finish this season's games in Jan/Feb, Feb/March, or March/April, with the next full season starting in August 2021, with all promotion and relegation issues sorted quite naturally.  Yes, I know there are financial/contract issues with that, but everyone is in the same boat - it's just part of the overall picture that is affecting all businesses and all of us.

Timescale and plans cannot be made at the moment - simply postpone the games this season until they can be played, then fit next season in after that - if possible - and if not, scrap 20/21 season and start next season in August 2021. 

 

 

There are any number of problems with that, LDC, but just one is that if clubs below the PL have to wait until the autumn at the earliest to start getting vital income from gate receipts then they won't still be in business by then.

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42 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

There are any number of problems with that, LDC, but just one is that if clubs below the PL have to wait until the autumn at the earliest to start getting vital income from gate receipts then they won't still be in business by then.

Football may well have to be on hold until the Autumn, so it is going to be tough for all football clubs and they will all need to find a way through this somehow. 

As for contract/player transfers issues, that JF mentioned, these can be dealt with far easier than voiding a season.  Normal life is on hold for as long as it takes and the best thing the powers that be in football could say is that when football returns, it will return as before, finish the season and go on to the next one, with all relegation/promotion issues sorted as normal. Yes, it is unprecented, yes it means all sorts of difficulties with squads/players etc, but if we finish this season somehow, however long it takes, it makes the transition to the following season a heck of a lot smoother than if we just void this season.

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I can't imagine what would happen if any option is chosen.

If the season is null and void, would a legal challenge prevent the next season beginning? Surely no court would allow an injunction to prevent those not affected from carrying with their normal business.

If they try and play the remainder of games and eke into next season then there will loss of earnings by those playing less games. Which I assume would mean more of a class action from every team.

There cannot be any other compromise as these two options will cause enough problems anyway.

The first option is IMO the sensible one as it makes it clear. There will be no merging into next season which could make a mockery of  it all.

The EPL can sustain a setback. I doubt there are many clubs in L1/L2 that can.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

F Yes, it is unprecented, yes it means all sorts of difficulties with squads/players etc, but if we finish this season somehow, however long it takes, it makes the transition to the following season a heck of a lot smoother than if we just void this season.

When are you going to realise that this just cannot happen. They are not difficulties, they are impossibilities so what can't happen won't happen. Face reality, the season has died of corona virus, it cannot be brought back to life by wooly and wishful thinking.

Edited by ricardo
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1 minute ago, ricardo said:

When are you going to realise that this just cannot happen. They are not difficulties, they are impossibilities so what can't happen won't happen. Face reality, the season has died of corona virus, it cannot be brought back to life by wooly and wishful thinking.

It's not wooly or wishful thinking, it is common sense and nothing is impossible.  Many things have been postponed everywhere and I have been involved directly with extending two contracts with companies in groups I am involved in who have shown flexibility in dealing with us and want things to carry on as much as we do after the current situation improves. They have both given open ended extensions so that we can complete our projects, no time limit, no restrictions.  It just takes the will to do it and is the simplest way of getting things back to normal, once the situation improves.

We are going to need a simple solution as the minefield that voiding this season, would cause far more problems legally in the long term than re-arranging contracts and adjusting rules.  It needs someone to show some leadership.....mind you, the PL and the FA are not historically good at that.....

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We are going to need a simple solution as the minefield that voiding this season, would cause far more problems legally in the long term than re-arranging contracts and adjusting rules.  It needs someone to show some leadership.....mind you, the PL and the FA are not historically good at that.....

I don't necessarily think that is true LDC. If you void this season then the amount of clubs who will probably beef is far less than those who don't. And for clubs in the lower divisions who rely mainly on gate receipts, to lose any more games because Liverpool Leeds and WBA object, could put them out of business.

The minefield of player's contracts alone should next season be delayed because of anything other than the Virus, would delay the season even longer. Lengthy court cases, of which Football may well have to take its turn in the queue of all the others, would be disastrous.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We are going to need a simple solution as the minefield that voiding this season, would cause far more problems legally in the long term than re-arranging contracts and adjusting rules.  It needs someone to show some leadership.....mind you, the PL and the FA are not historically good at that.....

I don't necessarily think that is true LDC. If you void this season then the amount of clubs who will probably beef is far less than those who don't. And for clubs in the lower divisions who rely mainly on gate receipts, to lose any more games because Liverpool Leeds and WBA object, could put them out of business.

The minefield of player's contracts alone should next season be delayed because of anything other than the Virus, would delay the season even longer. Lengthy court cases, of which Football may well have to take its turn in the queue of all the others, would be disastrous.

 

The way I look at is that voiding or cancelling the season is actually the simplest  solution with very few if any legal challenges compared to any other. It also a bit like a badly delayed train or plane - they do not get endlessly delayed they get cancelled as there is a larger interlocking time table to gel with. Easier to start / go again.

 

Edited by Yellow Fever

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On 25/03/2020 at 15:47, ricardo said:

Did anyone seriously believe it?

The football authorities are in danger of suffering reputational damage from this. They are living in cloud cuckoo land. I would love a month of football but I think I speak for everyone if I say I would gladly accept relegation if this was ended. Not everyone loves our game. 

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The way I look at is that voiding or cancelling the season is actually the simplest  solution with very few if any legal challenges compared to any other. It also a bit like a badly delayed train or plane - they do not get endlessly delayed they get cancelled as there is a larger interlocking time table to gel with. Easier to start / go again.

I agree there may not be any legal challenges with a null and void because they would look foolish in many people's eyes, particularly those who don't give two monkeys about sport.

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I believe the decision has to be made by the start of June. Making a determination of 'null and void' will indeed be the simplest and the cleanest in terms of players contracts, sponsorships and the sheer logistics of fitting in matches before next season. I cannot see a decision to postpone next season by any more than a month or two. If they should come up with playing behind closed doors in the middle of a national health crisis, or even towards the end of it, they will considered callous (imo). There will undoubtedly be a certain period of celebration after this but also a deeper reflective mood ... perhaps even mourning / remembrance for those lives lost.

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5 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Given there are much lower attendances at the respective leagues which have been null and voided, there would be absolute uproar if the top tiers games can be concluded before the start of the season, yet theirs can’t (safe distancing).

Personally, I think they’ve been the smaller sacrificial lamb just to test the waters and get a gauge of what sort of legal reaction they might receive, albeit on a relative larger level, if the top tiers have to follow suite.

This crossed my mind too Alex. If there are legal challenges there will be a precedent set and would allow any decision at the top of the game to be made with more certainty.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

The way I look at is that voiding or cancelling the season is actually the simplest  solution with very few if any legal challenges compared to any other. It also a bit like a badly delayed train or plane - they do not get endlessly delayed they get cancelled as there is a larger interlocking time table to gel with. Easier to start / go again.

 

Voiding the balance of this season is the right solution. And take the monies that would have gone to the three clubs that would have been relegated from the PL and spread that around the 72 EFL clubs as "compensation" for no promotion / relegation.  Ten of the EFL clubs might vote no, but 62 others would almost certainly vote yes to that solution. 

Edited by Surfer

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

It's not wooly or wishful thinking, it is common sense and nothing is impossible.  Many things have been postponed everywhere and I have been involved directly with extending two contracts with companies in groups I am involved in who have shown flexibility in dealing with us and want things to carry on as much as we do after the current situation improves. They have both given open ended extensions so that we can complete our projects, no time limit, no restrictions.  It just takes the will to do it and is the simplest way of getting things back to normal, once the situation improves.

We are going to need a simple solution as the minefield that voiding this season, would cause far more problems legally in the long term than re-arranging contracts and adjusting rules.  It needs someone to show some leadership.....mind you, the PL and the FA are not historically good at that.....

How about the millions and millions of pounds of commercial deals that clubs have signed that will end at the traditional finishing date of this season? Liverpool themselves have a kit deal ending in may with new balance and Nike have paid millions to make the next one. So how does that work then? And it isn’t just Liverpool, it’s clubs across the whole spectrum of football here and abroad 

Edited by JF

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4 minutes ago, JF said:

Liverpool themselves have a ket deal

I knew they were cheating!

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7 minutes ago, JF said:

How about the millions and millions of pounds of commercial deals that clubs have signed that will end at the traditional finishing date of this season? Liverpool themselves have a kit deal ending in may with new balance and Nike have paid millions to make the next one. So how does that work then? And it isn’t just Liverpool, it’s clubs across the whole spectrum of football here and abroad 

In all seriousness JF you are right, the complications in delaying next season are huge. I believe voiding the season is the only viable option. 

 

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Posted (edited)

So it’s already looking like Liverpool, New Balance and Nike are going to court over this. Liverpool’s deal with Nike is worth £70 million a season

https://ghanasoccernet.com/nike-and-new-balance-could-battle-in-court-over-liverpool-kit-deal

The Daily Mail write that they have been told that agreements between clubs and their kit suppliers and commercial partners do not contain clauses enabling either party to unilaterally extend or cancel and that leaves negotiated settlements or court cases as the only way to resolve disputes if the campaign continues beyond the term of the existing contracts, as appears increasingly likely.

Like so many aspects of daily life, the current coronavirus pandemic has brought football to a halt and with no prospect of a return to action until the end of April at the earliest, fixtures are set to run into the summer at least as clubs – including Liverpool who are on the brink of their first League Championship for 30 years – attempt to bring the 2019/20 season to a satisfactory conclusion.

Liverpool, Newcastle United and Watford are all coming towards the end of existing kit deals with New Balance, Puma and Liverpool's impending move from New Balance to a new £70m-a-year deal with Nike is by far the most significant and valuable. The former contract expires on May 31, by which time the Premier League season is unlikely to have been completed.

Edited by JF

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42 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

Now we've got numpties like Pedro of Chelsea saying that before games can resume we will have to have some pre-season games because the players won't be match fit.

Eh so?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52077977

But isn't he right, though? After a couple of months of inactivity, the players would need a mini pre-season.

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Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But isn't he right, though? After a couple of months of inactivity, the players would need a mini pre-season.

Another reason it can’t drag on and on. It really isn’t as simplistic as saying the season must be finished whenever that’s possible 

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Just reading that clubs have been told not to use null and void and instead say it’s curtailed. Apparently it will help with the pending legal battles with broadcasters 

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32 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But isn't he right, though? After a couple of months of inactivity, the players would need a mini pre-season.

Exactly, so many obvious reasons why the season will be "curtailed"

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30 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But isn't he right, though? After a couple of months of inactivity, the players would need a mini pre-season.

In a word no.

Inactivity?

So what's he doing with all his free time - he's hardly been going down the pub every night or eating Big Mac's everyday.

I would have thought that for the sort of money he's on it wouldn't be a big ask for him to keep fit.

Besides, it would be the same situation at every Club.

Anyway, I note that his contract at Chelsea runs out at the end of May.

Added to that he's 32, and IMO a vastly overrated player, so he might be out the door long before football resumes anyway.

And, if there are still restrictions, who are they going to play these pre season friendlies against?

 

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