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National League null and void

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25 minutes ago, JF said:

Can’t possibly happen with Aston Villa having a game in hand and Bournemouth would be relegated on goal difference with 9 games to go! Then the play offs in the championship.  There  is no way that any of the bottom 3 would accept that and the legal battles would stop any new season ever starting 

Not a chance. The 'bottom three' would immediately and correctly shout foul and injunct. Forget next season as well in that scenario until they were reinstated.

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15 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I didn’t know that re Chile. Do they normally have playoffs? If so did they just promote the side top of the playoffs or only those who were in the automatic positions do you know?

It was due to anti-government riots, with six rounds of matches left to play. The top team were declared champions as they were 13 points clear. The bottom two stayed up, and from the second tier they promoted the top side, in the one automatic place, and the higher of the teams in the two play-off places. Presumably they wanted a league with an even number of teams.

That only increased the division from 16 clubs to 18. Increasing the EPL to 22 - by taking the two sides in the automatic slots - in the current circumstances would seem the last thing they would want to do. But there are some arguments for it.

It would mean the season had not been a total waste, and would probably attract fewer lawsuits than voiding and certainly fewer than abandoning and relegating as well as promoting.

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The good news is that the Belgians are actually recognizing the inevitable and now addressing the issues. 

Unlike the EPL that currently still has it's head buried in the sand.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

But they haven't gone for "null and void" - they have cancelled the rest of the season and the current league positions stand.

Not so at the moment

Although they have announced Club Bruges as Champions according to the BBC a working group will decide the relegation and promotion issues on the 15th of April.

Edited by Making Plans

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I hope we have good lawyers as if we do the top and bottom approach with Leeds replacing us we would want significant compo. 

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I’m at an absolute loss for words. According to the athletic one of the ideas that have been put up for discussion to finish the PL season is to take the league to China to finish it. It just beggars belief 

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PFA not keen on a pay cut apparently.

This will play very badly with the general public.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

I hope we have good lawyers as if we do the top and bottom approach with Leeds replacing us we would want significant compo. 

I just can’t see anyway that can happen with 9 games of the season left. Leeds were in the top 2 this time last year, how did that pan out for them!? Equally the season before Leicester won the PL they were in a position like we find ourselves in and obviously survived. As has been said all along, the only way is to null and void and face the consequences

edit: perhaps they should have got adequate insurance like many others seem to have!

Edited by JF

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17 minutes ago, JF said:

I’m at an absolute loss for words. According to the athletic one of the ideas that have been put up for discussion to finish the PL season is to take the league to China to finish it. It just beggars belief 

Actually of all the 'out of the box' ideas I've heard if they really do want to 'finish' the league this isn't a bad one. China is after all one of the major markets for the rights and marketing and has the money. I've actually already watched Norwich play when in Hefei! Would actually be rather good for Norwich on the world stage.

As to the comments I see above on China in general - be wary you don't place your own cultural norms on another less you be judged -- animal welfare is a major issue in China too (and no excuses for some behaviour) but rapidly improving - but you don't have to think too far back when we used dogs for vivisection in cosmetics and smoking! Then again I think the Swiss still eat dogs ....

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Actually of all the 'out of the box' ideas I've heard if they really do want to 'finish' the league this isn't a bad one. China is after all one of the major markets for the rights and marketing and has the money. I've actually already watched Norwich play when in Hefei! Would actually be rather good for Norwich on the world stage.

As to the comments I see above on China in general - be wary you don't place your own cultural norms on another less you be judged -- animal welfare is a major issue in China too (and no excuses for some behaviour) but rapidly improving - but you don't have to think too far back when we used dogs for vivisection in cosmetics and smoking! Then again I think the Swiss still eat dogs ....

It won’t happen as the article says the idea has been largely dismissed. In fact the article hints that they are starting to accept the reality that it can’t be finished. Another idea is a World Cup style camp where all the matches get played at a neutral venue, again largely dismissed. 
 

as for being judged, I couldn’t care less. I won’t defend the indefensible 

Edited by JF

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1 minute ago, JF said:

It won’t happen as the article says the idea has been largely dismissed. In fact the article hints that they are starting to accept the reality that it can’t be finished. Another idea is a World Cup style camp where all the matches get played at a neutral venue, again largely dismissed. 

I would agree - it certainly can't and won't' be played out in the UK this summer.

I suspect we'll eventually do something rather like the Belgians. Call L'pool champions (nobody will object) but otherwise the table becomes meaningless (alphabetical will suffice). No objection to the Champs promoting Leeds or Leeds + 1 other if they wish and can agree  - when it restarts (then 4 or 5 for the drop) but I doubt they'll be agreement in the Champs on that.

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5 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

It was due to anti-government riots, with six rounds of matches left to play. The top team were declared champions as they were 13 points clear. The bottom two stayed up, and from the second tier they promoted the top side, in the one automatic place, and the higher of the teams in the two play-off places. Presumably they wanted a league with an even number of teams.

That only increased the division from 16 clubs to 18. Increasing the EPL to 22 - by taking the two sides in the automatic slots - in the current circumstances would seem the last thing they would want to do. But there are some arguments for it.

It would mean the season had not been a total waste, and would probably attract fewer lawsuits than voiding and certainly fewer than abandoning and relegating as well as promoting.

Look as though the league leaders were crowned champions.

What is very strange is that the mirror inMarch this year  (and a bbc article from last November) suggest there was no relegation or promotion. Other sources suggest there was. Most league tables you can find online show 18 teams in the prem (two more than the season before), but then espn (and a couple of others) only show 16 for this season. Wikipedia though confirms it is as you say Purple.

Even stranger though is the way they’re deciding relegation. Normally two sides go down. Because there are two additional teams this season, three teams are going down (okay so far). The teams to be relegated are:

(1) the team who finishes bottom this season

(2) the team who finishes bottom in a combined table from the cancelled last season and this season and

(3) the loser of a playoff between the side who finishes second bottom in the combined table and the side who finishes second bottom in the current season.

Please can we just scrap the whole thing - my head hurts just typing the above!

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14 minutes ago, JF said:

As for being judged, I couldn’t care less. I won’t defend the indefensible 

The point I'm trying to make is that they eat different foods to you - their diet is generally lacking in protein which places a premium on any animal meat - they tend to waste nothing and use everything. What we are used to eating is purely cultural (you likely haven't eaten insects deliberately but don't mind 'sea' ones i.e. shrimps and so on). Its protein.

Nobody will defend the abuse of animals though.

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Just now, Yellow Fever said:

The point I'm trying to make is that they eat different foods to you - their diet is generally lacking in protein which places a premium on any animal meat - they tend to waste nothing and use everything. What we are used to eating is purely cultural (you likely haven't eaten insects deliberately but don't mind 'sea' ones i.e. shrimps and so on). Its protein.

Nobody will defend the abuse of animals though.

I’ve sat and watched videos ( all be it for a second or two as they are disturbing ) on twitter of them frying dogs alive, and laughing whilst doing it. Do you know what they do to the sharks for their shark Finn soup? How about the absolute slaughter of the Rhino population for their ‘medicines’ among many other species. I’ve no time for them whatsoever 

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1 minute ago, JF said:

I’ve sat and watched videos ( all be it for a second or two as they are disturbing ) on twitter of them frying dogs alive, and laughing whilst doing it. Do you know what they do to the sharks for their shark Finn soup? How about the absolute slaughter of the Rhino population for their ‘medicines’ among many other species. I’ve no time for them whatsoever 

You are falling into the trap of judging a whole people by some extremes (which goes by another name) when there are many things us Brits have also done (yes we are one of the few counties that have pretty successfully committed genocide - Tasmania). Let''s hope we are all judged fairly and try to improve.

By the way there are many disturbing videos of animal cruelty that take place here in the UK (some even in the the EDP) - does that make all us Brits bad ? 

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What the Chinese do to animals is vile, but let's be honest, us Europeans do similar stuff. The English hunt foxes for fun, the Spanish torture bulls slowly before killing them, the French fatten up geese to make foie gras resulting in a very unpleasant death. 

I personally eat a lot of meat so I'm part of the problem when it comes to animal rights, but these examples are going too far. The Chinese have serious animal rights issues but we're not whiter than white in Europe. 

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

What the Chinese do to animals is vile, but let's be honest, us Europeans do similar stuff. The English hunt foxes for fun, the Spanish torture bulls slowly before killing them, the French fatten up geese to make foie gras resulting in a very unpleasant death. 

I personally eat a lot of meat so I'm part of the problem when it comes to animal rights, but these examples are going too far. The Chinese have serious animal rights issues but we're not whiter than white in Europe. 

Yes - that's all I'm trying to point out - and the cultural differences but not to defend any such abuse. 

I used to go fishing when I was young - but frankly I can't today justify it. Why would I hunt an animal not to eat but just for my pleasure? Fox hunting, hare coursing, bear baiting  / dancing are all from the same European mind-set.

"I've no time for them whatsoever"

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5 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

You are falling into the trap of judging a whole people by some extremes (which goes by another name) when there are many things us Brits have also done (yes we are one of the few counties that have pretty successfully committed genocide - Tasmania). Let''s hope we are all judged fairly and try to improve.

By the way there are many disturbing videos of animal cruelty that take place here in the UK (some even in the the EDP) - does that make all us Brits bad ? 

You can have your opinion and I’ll have mine. I’m more than comfortable with mine. We’ve only scratched the surface on the animal cruelty, there are many more examples. Where shall we start with their human rights?? And before you dare to start attempting the ‘racist’ card, it’s not racism, it’s fact. A perfect example of how pathetic this world is becoming when highlighting facts is pushed as racist...

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, JF said:

You can have your opinion and I’ll have mine. I’m more than comfortable with mine. We’ve only scratched the surface on the animal cruelty, there are many more examples. Where shall we start with their human rights?? And before you dare to start attempting the ‘racist’ card, it’s not racism, it’s fact. A perfect example of how pathetic this world is becoming when highlighting facts is pushed as racist...

Yes I can see this is turning into an all too common general anti-Chinese rant based on a few disturbing videos or newspaper articles and little to no first hand experience so I'll leave it there.

I treat people as I find them - no 'tropes'.  I enjoy the differences and engage with other cultures - and generally all over the world people I meet are good, friendly and helpful - indeed pleased to meet people of differing cultures to themselves!

Edited by Yellow Fever
Anyway - I still think its null and effectively void.
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5 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes I can see this is turning into an all too common general anti-Chinese rant based on a few disturbing videos or newspaper articles and little to no first hand experience so I'll leave it there.

I treat people as I find them - no 'tropes'.  I enjoy the differences and engage with other cultures - and generally all over the world people I meet are good, friendly and helpful - indeed pleased to meet people of differing cultures to themselves!

Turns out the international community has been wrong all along then...

 

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38 minutes ago, JF said:

Turns out the international community has been wrong all along then...

 

JF, i totally agree with you about the practices in those food markets. The things are barbaric, obscene and totally unhygienic and have given the world a very nasty and deadly virus to contend with.

But ive also written more than one post, saying its the small  and powerful Chinese elite that allowed these food markets to stay open, to satisfy their own ridiculous and selfish opinions that all manner of animal parts will somehow envigorate them in all things healthy.

Cannot be over emphasised that the vast majority of ordinary Chinese peoples do not indulge in these ways.

To show that im no goody goody please be kind to all animals type of person, i personally believed that fox hunting should have continued, but not in the way it was ...i.e. not with the lords and ladies in their red coats on horseback galloping behind a  trained pack of marauding hounds. People love foxes, often because they look pretty, but foxes themselves are vicious creatures...they often kill instinctively just to kill...not for the eating.  They can and do rip through chickens, geese and the like...biting the heads off and moving on...leaving  littered headless corpses laying around everywhere. A licensed and proper cull should happen in areas where to many foxes roam. Ok this is getting off topic..

I trust that after this virus is over the entire worlds organisations lean heavily on the Chinese authorities that such food markets should never, ever again find a place in their land. Other such markets in nearby nations should also be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

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10 hours ago, JF said:

I just can’t see anyway that can happen with 9 games of the season left. Leeds were in the top 2 this time last year, how did that pan out for them!? Equally the season before Leicester won the PL they were in a position like we find ourselves in and obviously survived. As has been said all along, the only way is to null and void and face the consequences

edit: perhaps they should have got adequate insurance like many others seem to have!

Don't disagree at all. However Belgium have sort of shot themselves in the foot by declaring champions as now their season can't be null and void, at least that's how I see it. They now need to fudge the promotion and relegation and issue. Top and bottom to swap places is probably the least contentious from their perspective.

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Posted (edited)

So this is Uefa’s latest on the issue....

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11967732/uefa-urges-european-leagues-not-to-cancel-seasons-and-hopes-football-restarts-in-july

Any ideas on how this would work? None of the players would be ‘match fit’ and then playing as many games in as short a time as possible must risk serious injury. Surely after such a lay off they would almost need a pre season again? Still doesn’t resolve the contract issues and when does next season start as after this season is concluded there would presumably be a pre season fro the next one and an open transfer window? Just cannot see any way this will work myself 

 

Edited by JF

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1 hour ago, JF said:

So this is Uefa’s latest on the issue....

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11967732/uefa-urges-european-leagues-not-to-cancel-seasons-and-hopes-football-restarts-in-july

Any ideas on how this would work? None of the players would be ‘match fit’ and then playing as many games in as short a time as possible must risk serious injury. Surely after such a lay off they would almost need a pre season again? Still doesn’t resolve the contract issues and when does next season start as after this season is concluded there would presumably be a pre season fro the next one and an open transfer window? Just cannot see any way this will work myself 

 

"Their work is now focusing on scenarios encompassing the months of July and August, including the possibility that the UEFA competitions restart after the completion of domestic leagues. A joint management of calendars is strictly required as the conclusion of the current season must be coordinated with the start of the new one, which may be partly impacted because of the overstretch.'

That wonderful euphemism '...may be partly impacted...' translates as: 'We will finish this season no matter what even though the next season will be shot to h*ll.'

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It increasingly appears that a null and void decision is not going to be made. Unless of course events force them to this. Otherwise you essentially make next season fit into a 75% space (shortened) which would be good for quick starters.

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23 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

"Their work is now focusing on scenarios encompassing the months of July and August, including the possibility that the UEFA competitions restart after the completion of domestic leagues. A joint management of calendars is strictly required as the conclusion of the current season must be coordinated with the start of the new one, which may be partly impacted because of the overstretch.'

That wonderful euphemism '...may be partly impacted...' translates as: 'We will finish this season no matter what even though the next season will be shot to h*ll.'

That Sky report leaves out a crucial paragraph:

“Since participation in Uefa club competitions is determined by the sporting result achieved at the end of a full domestic competition, a premature termination would cast doubts about the fulfilment of such condition. Uefa reserves the right to assess the entitlement of clubs to be admitted to the 2020-21 Uefa club competitions, in accordance with the relevant applicable competition regulations.”

In other words if you don't complete the season we will ban your clubs from the Champions League. I suspect this threat is being driven by Agnelli, but could be counterproductive.

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

That Sky report leaves out a crucial paragraph:

“Since participation in Uefa club competitions is determined by the sporting result achieved at the end of a full domestic competition, a premature termination would cast doubts about the fulfilment of such condition. Uefa reserves the right to assess the entitlement of clubs to be admitted to the 2020-21 Uefa club competitions, in accordance with the relevant applicable competition regulations.”

In other words if you don't complete the season we will ban your clubs from the Champions League. I suspect this threat is being driven by Agnelli, but could be counterproductive.

The only chance they have is if deaths per day drastically decline. Looking at the profile of the pandemic, that appears to be wishful thinking. UEFA can make as many pronouncements as they like but ultimately they are at the mercy of events.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only chance they have is if deaths per day drastically decline. Looking at the profile of the pandemic, that appears to be wishful thinking. UEFA can make as many pronouncements as they like but ultimately they are at the mercy of events.

I agree but there is another significant line in that statement:

“Stopping competitions should really be the last resort after acknowledging that no calendar alternative would allow to conclude the season.”

And what Uefa are doing is defining the calendar not as ending in June, with a decision having to be made soon, but pretty much anytime it wants. It is talking about not needing to make a decision before mid-May with football not before July and August.

---

To add, what I would look out for today with the EPL is whether that Uefa timetable is discussed, because it blows a hole in the idea of finishing the EPL season in early July, before the danger of getting sued by the TV companies gets real.

It also means the whole of the English pyramid would have to fit in, to make promotion and relegation realistic, and a complete redrawing/shortening of next season.

I can see a few voices being raised against Uefa trying by threats to force such major changes on English football, just to preserve the Champions League.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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Posted (edited)

What clout do UEFA actually have? I thought Belgium announced yesterday that their season has finished and Bruges have been declared Champions. Promotions and relegations to be decided by a Committee. 

Edited by Barry Brockes
Mispelling

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