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Bill

Rishi Sunak

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2 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I would much rather have a government that prefers reasoned persuasion to authoritarian dikta until that becomes necessary in the last resort.

I think everyone would, but the public haven't listened.

They weren't listening in Italy, they were ignoring the advice not to travel, and the southerners living in the north were basically breaking quarantine by leaving to go home, when the situation in the north was already bad and the south was relatively untouched. The government responded by shutting everything and putting the country on 'lockdown'.

It's the same in the UK. The government told people not to bulk buy, but they did. They told the public to stay off work, avoid all non-essential contact and to not go to pubs and restaurants on Friday before they were forced to close, yet I can see from my Facebook that people are ignoring the rules regarding working with the public and on Friday loads of people went out for 'one last ****-up' because it would be the last for a while.

The government has given the UK a chance to be responsible but they haven't taken it, which is why the government and now having to take things into their own hands and close everything down. Don't complain if/when a lockdown gets introduced next week.

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The situation shows how much we have changed as a country, not because of immigration changing demographics but within the established community. 

Time was when Boris Johnson's very British measured nudgings would have been enough. 'This is the right thing to do' and 95% of the population accepted. 

You still see many examples of British altruism and sense of duty but we have developed a characteristic of selfishness and hostility to others. 

Respect for authority is gone. Yes, authority needs to be held to account, it is sometimes wrong but what is the alternative but chaos? 

Every day we are all subjected to micro-aggressions: on roads, public transport, bars. What is wrong with us? 

Do we want French style certificated movement? We are not as rule abiding as Germans, no one is, but do we want to bring authoritiam on our heads. We soon bleat and plead when brought to account, no one ever admits fault and that is a massive weakness. 

The British Gent is a myth. London isn't full of chaps in bowler hats carrying umbrellas. It is full of pushy young men and women fighting for space or lost in their social media amidst a mayhem of unrestrained idiots on cycles, bikes and cars. 

Even on this site, people air their opinions and are shot down aggressively with other opinions presented as if they were facts. 

If you post something uncontroversial with a plain headline no one reads it. 

Under a previous incarnation (which I lost the password for so it's history) I myself used alarmist titles just to get 'clicks.' I also found how a flippant suggestion became fact once it had been quoted once or twice. It was light-hearted but just as you can't discipline children with irony you cannot control reaction to your comments in a world where extreme language is the norm. 

We need to stop using hyperbole for everyday situations. The media is the driver of this with 'weather bombs' and 'vile' politicians etc etc. 

Perhaps this virus will help to readjust some of our priorities. When you cant do things, the simple everyday things, they mean much more. I wish I could hug and kiss my mum today and one of my grandchildren next week. 

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

I have to say that I am confused by this as well. They have been behind the curve right from the start. The advice was available from other countries and from medical journals like the Lancet. Other countries chose to take radical action earlier whilst we were still flirting with ideas of partial herd immunity - even super loyal Jeremy Hunt criticised the approach.

In direct answer to your question posed above, I think that during times of national crisis people want to rally round making overt sounds of loyalty to the govt/ nation whilst simultaneously taking actions from a selfish standpoint - e.g. hoarding. There are parallels with the Second World War and the loyalty shown to Churchill despite the mistakes/ contradictions and hypocrisy. 

I guess people want to think that we have a it under control and the govt knows what it is doing, even if the evidence is very much to the contrary.

The problem is that the stringency of conditions placed on the population does not correlate with results. As i keep saying, Germany has by far the best record in restricting deaths but was rather behind other countries in applying conditions. France & Italy for example were both further ahead & many in Germany were complaining they were too slow:

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-is-germany-doing-enough-to-slow-the-outbreak/a-52770782

Simply put we do not have enough information to be sure of the best course of action so it is necessarily a judgement call. Nobody will know who was right until after this is over; you can agree or disagree but there is no properly objective scientific way to determine what to do right now.

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Do we want French style certificated movement? We are not as rule abiding as Germans, no one is, but do we want to bring authoritiam on our heads. We soon bleat and plead when brought to account, no one ever admits fault and that is a massive weakness. 

I have said on countless thread that we will not accept draconian measures. But the longer people do their own thing, the more stringent the measures might have to be.

It is frightening to think of rationing, vouchers etc but that would be a measure considered if we don't act sensibly. 

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54 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

The problem is that the stringency of conditions placed on the population does not correlate with results...

Nobody will know who was right until after this is over; you can agree or disagree but there is no properly objective scientific way to determine what to do right now.

I take your point that nobody knows for certain but there are certainly steps that should have been taken that weren't and the govt has been behind the curve. 

Why for example, do we find that it was not until last week that the govt decided to buy up testing kits or is planning measures to manufacture more ventilators. Data was available which showed that it would place a huge strain on the NHS. Why even at this stage are key staff short of basic equipment.

We are talking about lack of planning - not just stringency of measure. NHS provision and the economic measures showed that they were behind the curve with the planning and preparation, despite having the advantage of seeing what other countries had gone through.

There are also issues of clarity of communication - e.g. don't go to pubs/clubs etc, but we won't close them; visiting on Mother's day etc.

There is a suspicion that this is due to a reliance on a clique of advisers without keeping the machinery of govt up-to-date. 

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16 hours ago, ricardo said:

Boris maybe a bit of a lightweight but seems to have the ability to delegate and pick the right person. He has also listened to what the experts are saying even though not all the experts are saying the same thing.

Impressed with Rishi Sunak, he seems to have a grasp of what needs doing.

I beg to differ. Johnsons limited time as PM has removed any lasting doubt of his limited abilities. Appointing the likes of the serial failure Patel and the odious IDS does not smack of anything but very poor judgement. And it should be borne in mind that Sunak is only in the job due to johnson falling out with the previous chancellor.

Johnson is a weak personality and so as a politician he will not take decisions that might go against his popularity - and goes' missing' when the difficult work is required. You may recall him having to be recalled during the riots of 2013, whereby he 'spaffed' ,ore money up on the wall by buying unusable water cannon. Similarly 'missing' during the recent floods, the questions over Windrush and the vital early days of this virus.

Where now the 'herd immunity ?  Quickly dumped as his policy on not closing schools, pubs, gyms etc. With much the same happening with food sistribution. Pious words because necessary action might affect his popularity. Sinak is doing the job fools thought Johnson is capable of doing and would do. Beyond the false bonhomie Johnson  is ashallow man desperate for the recognition that position should afford. Whereas with ll his previous posts that recognition also serves to put his competence under a critical gaze. Too many times he has been found wanting.

Too much wasted money, too many failed projects and too many times he has made ill judged comment in the belief it will please a certain section of society - without the sense or care that those words will not conveniently disappear. And they haven't.

Just as his current level of incompetence will not, years hence.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

 

44 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

To be fair I think he is doing a pretty good job in the crisis in which we find ourselves right now.. I think calling him a crook is wrong and potentially libellous. Tax evasion is criminal, tax avoidance is immoral but still legal however unpleasant that seems.

That said it's disgusting that he and his hedge fund partners cost the country billions. That does seem to have been glossed over and it's fair that it should be brought to public attention.

 

Edited by ......and Smith must score.

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20 minutes ago, Bill said:

I beg to differ. Johnsons limited time as PM has removed any lasting doubt of his limited abilities. Appointing the likes of the serial failure Patel and the odious IDS does not smack of anything but very poor judgement. And it should be borne in mind that Sunak is only in the job due to johnson falling out with the previous chancellor.

Johnson is a weak personality and so as a politician he will not take decisions that might go against his popularity - and goes' missing' when the difficult work is required. You may recall him having to be recalled during the riots of 2013, whereby he 'spaffed' ,ore money up on the wall by buying unusable water cannon. Similarly 'missing' during the recent floods, the questions over Windrush and the vital early days of this virus.

Where now the 'herd immunity ?  Quickly dumped as his policy on not closing schools, pubs, gyms etc. With much the same happening with food sistribution. Pious words because necessary action might affect his popularity. Sinak is doing the job fools thought Johnson is capable of doing and would do. Beyond the false bonhomie Johnson  is ashallow man desperate for the recognition that position should afford. Whereas with ll his previous posts that recognition also serves to put his competence under a critical gaze. Too many times he has been found wanting.

Too much wasted money, too many failed projects and too many times he has made ill judged comment in the belief it will please a certain section of society - without the sense or care that those words will not conveniently disappear. And they haven't.

Just as his current level of incompetence will not, years hence.

Did you read the scorching analysis of him by Marina Hyde (Guardian)? Available on Twitter if difficult to find which I doubt. It's well worth the 5 minute read. Don't think I've read such a portrayal of any other politician. 

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Needs to get his **** into gear and help the self employed. We’re losing work rapidly and there will be millions who can’t work from home struggling. I had a full year of work sorted and it’s gone within a week

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28 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Did you read the scorching analysis of m by Marina Hyde (Guardian)? Available on Twitter if difficult to find which I doubt. It's well worth the 5 minute read. Don't think I've read such a portrayal of any other politician. 

I found this piece, which echos my words about Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/boris-johnson-covid-19-prime-minister-brexit

"We are being asked to put our trust – our lives – in the hands of a man whose entire career, journalistic and political, has been built on a series of lies. It is the work of seconds to dredge up Johnson columns about radical population control, or Johnson buses about the NHS enjoying vast savings from the EU. Who knows which of these, if any, he ever really believed.

Time and again this week I have been reminded of that great line from last year’s Chernobyl drama series. When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”

Sadly this not a single and jaundised view by one columnist. it is the common currency of almost all political observers, bar the now certified rants of the Telegraph - who are unsurprisingly one of his paymasters. To watch a politician stumble from one extremely costly failure to another, from one bare faced lie to another is to watch a Greek tragedy played out in long agonising days, months and years with the one thought. Will it end at some point.

And why are so many still so easily fooled ?

"

 

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14 hours ago, kick it off said:

No objection to that point, but delivering the messages with such utter incompetence and lack of understanding of the consequences shows him to be the poor, tone deaf leader he is. He's causing problems by making vague announcements and not filling in the blanks, and leaving everybody else to pick up the pieces. I don't dispute its a horrendously difficult situation, but things like saying keyworkers will have childcare, but not detailing who a keyworker is until midnight 30 hours later is gross incompetence. Get the policy in place, then make the announcement, doing things backwards is leadership basics.

This was the point where I thought, hang on maybe they really don't have a clue what they are doing. Practically every other country in Europe had closed their schools already so surely it had occurred to someone that we might close ours too and maybe therefore we'd need a plan for exams, vulnerable kids and key workers.

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4 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

This was the point where I thought, hang on maybe they really don't have a clue what they are doing. Practically every other country in Europe had closed their schools already so surely it had occurred to someone that we might close ours too and maybe therefore we'd need a plan for exams, vulnerable kids and key workers.

Exactly - it is the total lack of planning in so many aspects of what has happened. In essence the govt has been dysfunctional and constantly trying to catch up with actions and planning that they should have made before. 

It is not particularly a political point - it is about style of government. Johnson/ Cummings made their stance pretty clear by the de facto "centralisation" of the Chancellor of the Exchequer: they wanted total control over what happens and didn't trust the machinery of govt at all - being constantly behind the curve is a direct consequence. 

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Posted (edited)

I have been impressed by our bumbling buffoon of a PM. Yes he likes to be popular and seems to have no convictions but he seems like he's chosen some good people to do what needs to be done.

 

this is a time of unbelievable national crisis and a time to pull together. I'm minded to give my last loo roll to an 1p5wich supporter.

the time for division has gone. Let's pull together to support the most vulnerable.

 

Edited by yellowandgreen

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2 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

 

 

To be fair I think he is doing a pretty good job in the crisis in which we find ourselves right now.. I think calling him a crook is wrong and potentially libellous. Tax evasion is criminal, tax avoidance is immoral but still legal however unpleasant that seems.

That said it's disgusting that he and his hedge fund partners cost the country billions. That does seem to have been glossed over and it's fair that it should be brought to public attention.

 

I deliberately used the word 'crook' because it means someone who can't be trusted. Sorry, but I don't trust a man who had a part to play in bringing the financial world to its knees. 

As for his political performance, it was only a matter of days ago that he made his budget speech which was extraordinarily ill judged based on what most people saw coming. 

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1 hour ago, Crafty Canary said:

Guardian journalists criticise Conservative politicians shocker! 

But it's not just the Guardian is it? The ultra loyal ex-health minister (Jeremy Hunt), other govts, representatives of the World Health Organisation; UK businesses, leading doctors, the Lancet and many others have criticised it too. The Lancet was expressing concerns weeks in advance.

The planning has been appalling and incompetent.

e.g. Ex-Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said: 'It is surprising and concerning that we're not doing any of it at all'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8108053/Jeremy-Hunt-blasts-Boris-Johnsons-concerning-decision-not-ban-public-events.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-jeremy-hunt-warns-there-are-too-many-gaps-leaving-nhs-doctors-without-proper-protective-equipment-2482762

e.g. The former regional director of Public Health England has issued a furious condemnation what he described as the UK government’s “complacent” response to the coronavirus pandemic.

"We’ve wasted a month" - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-cases-john-ashton-nhs-hospital-covid-19-budget-a9396211.html

"For Unknown Reasons They Waited. And Watched’ – Lancet Editor Exposes Devastating Government Failure On Coronavirus"

https://www.medialens.org/2020/for-unknown-reasons-they-waited-and-watched-lancet-editor-exposes-devastating-government-failure-on-coronavirus/

Richard Horton, editor of the world’s leading medical journal, The Lancet, asked:

‘Why did it take the UK government eight weeks to recognise the seriousness of what we now call Covid-19?’

After all, in January, under huge pressure, Chinese doctors ‘took time to write up their findings… Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. But medical and scientific advisers to the UK government ignored their warnings. For unknown reasons they waited. And watched.’

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I deliberately used the word 'crook' because it means someone who can't be trusted. Sorry, but I don't trust a man who had a part to play in bringing the financial world to its knees. 

Unfortunately trust is something most people wouldn’t put in many politicians from any party at the moment. I have very little criticism of the actions this week, but does that mean I trust Boris and his cronies? 

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Unfortunately trust is something most people wouldn’t put in many politicians from any party at the moment. I have very little criticism of the actions this week, but does that mean I trust Boris and his cronies? 

I admit to leaning to the left but I don't trust Corbyn. If Rory Stewart had been the leader of the Conservative party at the last election I would have voted for them for the first time ever. 

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5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I admit to leaning to the left but I don't trust Corbyn. If Rory Stewart had been the leader of the Conservative party at the last election I would have voted for them for the first time ever. 

Would definitely agree on Corbyn although it would have taken a lot for me to vote Tory!

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5 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

Guardian journalists criticise Conservative politicians shocker! 

Of course you could have posted a rebuttal.

Nothing to detailed just a few lines pointing out that Johnson didn't cost the country milions with his failed cable car, garden bridge, 'Boris island', water canon, routemaster buses. pollution catching glue....etc

Was not sacked twice for lying, exposed in 2019 umteen times for lying

Earned his salary when in Brussels posting back misrepresentations of EU statements (lying)

but then to do that you would have had to ape Johnson's career.....and lie through your teeth

 

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" but he seems like he's chosen some good people to do what needs to be done. "

Those dealing with this ARE NOT those he has chosen. They were at they post long before John infexted number 10

The work is being done by NHS and armed forces chiefs. They are doing their job in spite of Johnson, not because of him.

A man actively behind the past decades massive cuts to the above, as well as the police and other much needed services

 

A man who appointed as Pritti Patel a quite loathsome creature,

who worked as a consultant, defending BAT (British American Tobacco)

“BAT’s factory in Burma was jointly owned with the military dictatorship and so helped fund one of the most brutal military dictatorships in the world,”

"and in Nigeria after children as young as seven were found to be working on farms supplying it with tobacco leaf."

" lobby MEPs against the introduction of the EU tobacco control directive "

I can only wonder how loud the shrieking and bleating of the rightwing would be on here were this to be Diane Abbott's previous work

 

 

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Bill, he appointed Patel because he knew the Windrush report was coming and he wanted someone of her colour in charge of the Home Office when it was published.

As it happens, the virus gave the Government a wonderful opportunity to publish the report last week. Quite shameful behaviour but the media will ensure that the report is revisited when the virus has gone. Patel will be useful to him at that point but I doubt she'll last long afterwards 

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On 22/03/2020 at 10:50, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think everyone would, but the public haven't listened.

They weren't listening in Italy, they were ignoring the advice not to travel, and the southerners living in the north were basically breaking quarantine by leaving to go home, when the situation in the north was already bad and the south was relatively untouched. The government responded by shutting everything and putting the country on 'lockdown'.

It's the same in the UK. The government told people not to bulk buy, but they did. They told the public to stay off work, avoid all non-essential contact and to not go to pubs and restaurants on Friday before they were forced to close, yet I can see from my Facebook that people are ignoring the rules regarding working with the public and on Friday loads of people went out for 'one last ****-up' because it would be the last for a while.

The government has given the UK a chance to be responsible but they haven't taken it, which is why the government and now having to take things into their own hands and close everything down. Don't complain if/when a lockdown gets introduced next week.

I certainly won’t be complaining as the government now has no choice. It’s first priority is to protect its citizens from enemies foreign and internal. The government has tried reasoned persuasion and now they have to take actions to protect some of the people from themselves. Full lockdown with online passes to download if you want to leave your home giving details of destination and reason for travel. Substantial fines for those ignoring the lockdown including detention if necessary. 

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14 hours ago, Bill said:

" but he seems like he's chosen some good people to do what needs to be done. "

Those dealing with this ARE NOT those he has chosen. They were at they post long before John infexted number 10

The work is being done by NHS and armed forces chiefs. They are doing their job in spite of Johnson, not because of him.

A man actively behind the past decades massive cuts to the above, as well as the police and other much needed services

 

A man who appointed as Pritti Patel a quite loathsome creature,

who worked as a consultant, defending BAT (British American Tobacco)

“BAT’s factory in Burma was jointly owned with the military dictatorship and so helped fund one of the most brutal military dictatorships in the world,”

"and in Nigeria after children as young as seven were found to be working on farms supplying it with tobacco leaf."

" lobby MEPs against the introduction of the EU tobacco control directive "

I can only wonder how loud the shrieking and bleating of the rightwing would be on here were this to be Diane Abbott's previous work

 

 

BAT is not an illegal organisation so being a consultant for it is not a crime either. Whether she remains Home Secretary or not is another issue that her role as a BAT consultant has nothing to do with. You might not like her but then you didn’t like Brexit and spent several years abusing posters on this forum who disagreed with you. Remind us how that ended.

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6 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I certainly won’t be complaining as the government now has no choice. It’s first priority is to protect its citizens from enemies foreign and internal. The government has tried reasoned persuasion and now they have to take actions to protect some of the people from themselves. Full lockdown with online passes to download if you want to leave your home giving details of destination and reason for travel. Substantial fines for those ignoring the lockdown including detention if necessary. 

Cynics might suggest that part of protecting it's citizens is to ensure that the health, police and fire services are adequately funded as with the armed services.

But I can see where your sort would welcome almost 'martial law'. Soon your sort will be wanting all wirelesses handed in and 'undesirables' to wear a piece of coloured cloth attached to their clothing.

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3 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

BAT is not an illegal organisation so being a consultant for it is not a crime either. Whether she remains Home Secretary or not is another issue that her role as a BAT consultant has nothing to do with. You might not like her but then you didn’t like Brexit and spent several years abusing posters on this forum who disagreed with you. Remind us how that ended.

No one claimed it was a crime so stop making up stuff.

Yes. do remind us how brexit went.

Are we out of the single market, customs union, ECJ, Did we whistle about paying £39bn ? Will EU schedules still be in use for around another 1o years ? Has the EU now imposed a customs border within UK sovereign territory...which it will monitor ? Taking back control 🤣

Perhaps you should come back with your bigoted squeaks when all that has gone...along with the right of naughty foreigners to ............. keep our NHS, care system, food production, supply and harvest going.

Or maybe your whining bleat is in the same line as that of your upset when naughty folk on here pointed out the incompetence of Johnson.

 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Help for the self employed now.

Did you predict that three months ago ? 😉

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Interesting correlation between those bashing Johnson and those who are remoaners.

The current crisis is a God send for those bleating remoaners to bash Johnson for having the temerity to actually Get Brexit Done 🙂🙂🙂

The government are doing a great job and are keeping the death toll down, tragic as each death is for those involved, despite the actions of some to ignore the restrictions in place. 

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