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56 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

New Zealand is just a dangerously unhinged country it’s best to ignore them tbh

Just wait until the fag smuggling starts. 

Are they going to criminalise under age smokers?

Seems nobody learned anything from the prohibition era.

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The BBC has an interesting calculator (?) embedded into one of its current articles which allows you to see hospital admissions in your area, waiting times etc.

Various different results, but one in my local nhs trust states in November 2021 they had 3,352 emergency admissions. In November 2019, they had 3,467 emergency admissions. There were around  300 more attendances at a&e this year, but around 100 fewer admitted.

The next Trust along did have more admissions in November 2021 (4,264 vs 3,913 in 2019). But in 2019, 44 per cent of those admissions needed to wait over 4 hours for a hospital bed. In 2021, only 33 per cent needed to wait that long (and that’s waiting for beds after admission, not waiting to be seen at a and e ). So more people didn’t have a bed after being admitted in November 2019 than November 2021.

 

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2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Just wait until the fag smuggling starts. 

Are they going to criminalise under age smokers?

Seems nobody learned anything from the prohibition era.

To be honest, smoking is dying out anyway. Very few people my age smoke compared to my parents’ generation. And even fewer of my cousins’ generation seem to (they’re students). Booze on the other hand is still quite popular! 

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Reading that only 72% of residents in care homes had received their booster, so much for “Hancocks protective ring”……..as they say!!

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3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Reading that only 72% of residents in care homes had received their booster, so much for “Hancocks protective ring”……..as they say!!

Afraid it’s worse for the home bound, it is believed 300,000 will need boosters. As I understand it the effort to get those vaccinated will finally begin in earnest next week.

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21 hours ago, Indy said:

No YF I haven’t and you nor I know what’s needed to be done! Hospitalisation are very low compared to the numbers infected with the delta variant which is at first report a down site more severe.

So I’ll go again to challenge the doomsters,, what exactly do you think needs to be done to slow it down?

1, stop everyone working? Millions of people need to travel to a work sites and mix, it’s just how it is.

2, stop people revelling? Goods are moved in massive bulk around the country do you want to stop all the deliveries?

3, stop people going shopping or going out at all? We still need to eat, see loved ones we care for etc.

4, stop education again?

Lets not beat around the bush, it’s not about slowing this strain, it’s R 2.5 to 4 in its transmission rates and is already in this country, it’s not going to be stopped.

Luckily over 20 million have already had three vaccines, vast majority have had two vaccines and this is going to stop the numbers hospitalised and deaths compared to other times we had big waves.

Additionally we now understand the treatments and hospitalisation time for Covid has been dramatically reduced.

So the reality is we’re totally unprepared in the way we live to prevent this from spreading, it’s like holding back a waterfall with a sieve, it’s heading our way and rather than think we can prevent this quick spread we need to have a plan to deal with it, if we really think more will be hospitalised then the nightingale hospitals should be implemented and additional staff put on standby.

WBB - just to say that I think December is the start of malaria in Africa and hospitalisation start to rise this time of year, so without actually knowing why patients are being hospitalised for we don’t know the true Covid numbers, as said anyone hospitalised is automatically tested for Covid.

I just don’t think there’s much more we can sensibly do, yes you can cancel parties, stop mass gatherings like sports events and cancel Christmas but it’s not going to stop the press of this variant.

 

1. No. Just wear high-grade masks. Frequent rapid tests at home.

2. No. Goods transportation has little to no impact on spread of disease. Frequent rapid tests at home.

3. No. Just wear high-grade masks, increase ventilation and HEPA air purifiers. Frequent rapid tests at home.

4. No. Just wear high-grade masks, increase ventilation and HEPA purifiers. Frequent rapid tests at home.

In addition:

- test & trace & quarantine those who have been exposed fast and decisively

- monitor spread of variants with frequent sequencing

- Mandate booster shots for all

- Test all travelers to and from abroad, repeatedly, even those fully vaxxed. Quarantine until neg. result. Mandate daily rapid testing at hotels.

 

These measures are extremely cheap compared to alternative of mass death or mass lockdowns. It is extremely stupid that this extremely cost-effective and proven measures have not been implemented yet to full extent.

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On 09/12/2021 at 01:51, Tetteys Jig said:

who's footing the bill for this one? When does it end? When the entire world is at ZeroCovid? Then another pangolin will give us "Covid 20 - the squeakual"

 

Far from it, because we have a tool which is superior to any vaccine or in fact any measure there is or ever will be: High grade masks. How effective are masks?

95-99% effective -> both ways.

FFP2 (95% filtration): 1 / 0.05 x 0.05 = 400. -> From one person wearing a ffp2 mask to another wearing a ffp2 mask, it takes 400 times longer to deliver the same number of viral particles from one to the other compared to not wearing any masks

FFP3 (99% filtration): 1/ 0.01 x 0.01 = 10000 -> 10000 times longer to deliver same number of particles

Do you get it now?

We need to get over ourselves and start thinking about masks like we think about wearing shoes: You put them on when you step outside and take off when you come back at home. Mask use in Asia is the norm and that is why Japan has crushed delta despite modest restrictions.

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Forget data from SA for a moment. Here is the best news:

Quote

Mask compliance in London increased from half to 90% - Sadiq Khan

The Mayor of London was speaking to Sky News this morning following the recent reintroduction of rules requiring masks on public transport.

Mr Khan said: "I' m really pleased the government changed their mind on taking away our powers … on 19 July we had good compliance, once the government changed the rules on 19 July I'm afraid there were fewer people wearing face masks on public transport.

"The good news is, over the last 10 days because we've had ... the ability to issue fines. The number of those wearing face masks on tubes, buses and trams has gone up hugely.

 

Source: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-news-uk-latest-live-boris-johnson-party-new-rules-plan-b-covid-12469075

If 90% compliance is true, UK will crush delta and may be able to control spread of omicron until everybody have had their boosters. Caveat: universal mask use has to be implemented in schools. Boosters are absolutely necessary.

Edited by Upo

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19 minutes ago, Upo said:

We need to get over ourselves and start thinking about masks like we think about wearing shoes: You put them on when you step outside and take off when you come back at home. Mask use in Asia is the norm and that is why Japan has crushed delta despite modest restrictions.

This  is so clearly true. I speak to Japan most days  - they are fed up with Covid too - but mask wearing is simply required etiquette and the polite civilized thing to do (rather like always wearing indoor slippers even at work) - as well as generally following the rules. 

Was it called the 'Miracle' of Japan a few weeks ago in the media.

Whether it will hold up against Omicron is another thing but it can only help.

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30 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

This  is so clearly true. I speak to Japan most days  - they are fed up with Covid too - but mask wearing is simply required etiquette and the polite civilized thing to do (rather like always wearing indoor slippers even at work) - as well as generally following the rules. 

Was it called the 'Miracle' of Japan a few weeks ago in the media.

Whether it will hold up against Omicron is another thing but it can only help.

Absolutely I’ve been wearing my masks (high grade, not a face covering) for two years including at Carrow Road on my visits, throughout the two years now.

But when the inane politicians can’t even be bothered to wear them in parliament what does that say about them all?

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1 hour ago, Upo said:

 

Far from it, because we have a tool which is superior to any vaccine or in fact any measure there is or ever will be: High grade masks. How effective are masks?

95-99% effective -> both ways.

FFP2 (95% filtration): 1 / 0.05 x 0.05 = 400. -> From one person wearing a ffp2 mask to another wearing a ffp2 mask, it takes 400 times longer to deliver the same number of viral particles from one to the other compared to not wearing any masks

FFP3 (99% filtration): 1/ 0.01 x 0.01 = 10000 -> 10000 times longer to deliver same number of particles

Do you get it now?

We need to get over ourselves and start thinking about masks like we think about wearing shoes: You put them on when you step outside and take off when you come back at home. Mask use in Asia is the norm and that is why Japan has crushed delta despite modest restrictions.

I've never denied that they don't work but they're certainly not a superior tool to vaccinations. I wear one when required and when I feel its suitable and isn't going to be impractical. Still isn't going to end the pandemic. Or are you thinking we all just wear masks all the time?

Edited by Tetteys Jig
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1 hour ago, Upo said:

 

1. No. Just wear high-grade masks. Frequent rapid tests at home.

2. No. Goods transportation has little to no impact on spread of disease. Frequent rapid tests at home.

3. No. Just wear high-grade masks, increase ventilation and HEPA air purifiers. Frequent rapid tests at home.

4. No. Just wear high-grade masks, increase ventilation and HEPA purifiers. Frequent rapid tests at home.

In addition:

- test & trace & quarantine those who have been exposed fast and decisively

- monitor spread of variants with frequent sequencing

- Mandate booster shots for all

- Test all travelers to and from abroad, repeatedly, even those fully vaxxed. Quarantine until neg. result. Mandate daily rapid testing at hotels.

 

These measures are extremely cheap compared to alternative of mass death or mass lockdowns. It is extremely stupid that this extremely cost-effective and proven measures have not been implemented yet to full extent.

Those points you make are indeed to be followed, totally agreed, they’re for companies to enforce and pay for and people to implement themselves, you don’t need to be told these things.

This government has been utterly focused on themselves led by self promoting selfish guy with no focus on what’s best for the country, from Brexit to Covid he’s been utterly crap. The only thing we managed to do quicker was the vaccine roll out which others have caught up with.
But again you’re points are only relevant to a degree, this virus will still spread even with you measures, as you say delivery systems have little impact, I disagree, the volume off goods going through distribution centres and food production through to shelves and onto customers have massive chances of spreading the virus, you only need a couple with Covid to transmit the virus onto multiple goods, who really wipes everything delivered or from the shops thoroughly before handling them?

It’s the next variant, it’s going to spread as we are not as a population that obedient or disciplined as those Asian countries, as mandating vaccines you can’t, as much as I would like to see it from a personal view we live in a culture where freedom comes first. We can and should make it a stigma not to be vaccinated other than health reasons and limit those who choose not to be vaccinated everyday function in society, push them to be vaccinated, after all they also have a duty of care under living in society for others.

Edited by Indy
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10 minutes ago, Indy said:

Those points you make are indeed to be followed, totally agreed, they’re for companies to enforce and pay for and people to implement themselves, you don’t need to be told these things.

This government has been utterly focused on themselves led by self promoting selfish guy with no focus on what’s best for the country, from Brexit to Covid he’s been utterly crap. The only thing we managed to do quicker was the vaccine roll out which others have caught up with.
But again you’re points are only relevant to a degree, this virus will still spread even with you measures, as you say delivery systems have little impact, I disagree, the volume off goods going through distribution centres and food production through to shelves and onto customers have massive chances of spreading the virus, you only need a couple with Covid to transmit the virus onto multiple goods, who really wipes everything delivered or from the shops thoroughly before handling them?

It’s the next variant, it’s going to spread as we don’t as a population are not as obedient or disciplined as those Asian countries, as mandating vaccines you can’t, as much as I would like to see it from a personal view we live in a culture where freedom comes first. We can and should make it a stigma not to be vaccinated other than health reasons and limit those who choose not to be vaccinated everyday function in society, push them to be vaccinated, after all they also have a duty of care under living in society for others.

The crunch comes Indy if the NHS has to start to pick and choose who it can treat (triage).

Personally when it comes to that - no vaccine - then back of the queue (plus box of paracetamol). It was their choice.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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18 minutes ago, Indy said:

Absolutely I’ve been wearing my masks (high grade, not a face covering) for two years including at Carrow Road on my visits, throughout the two years now.

But when the inane politicians can’t even be bothered to wear them in parliament what does that say about them all?

This is actually alluding to a thought I made weeks go - Israel and Japan both 'crushed' Delta but we always run to explain it with the most high tech (booster) explanation whereas it could in large part be that the low tech masks and social distancing are actually far more effective than we give them credit for (Israel reintroduced them at the same time as the booster rollout etc). 

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51 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

I've never denied that they don't work but they're certainly not a superior tool to vaccinations. I wear one when required and when I feel its suitable and isn't going to be impractical. Still isn't going to end the pandemic. Or are you thinking we all just wear masks all the time?

Surely the important point is not that they are inferior or superior to vaccination but an additional tool to vaccination - none of the tools we have are 100% as we all know.

So it baffles why it has taken this long (cases and deaths have been far too high for months now) and a new variant before we start to make proper use again of the simple, and according to the scientists pretty effective, tools we have available to help get us through this pandemic without the need to resort to the more drastic measures which we know will be the next step if the situation continues to deteriorate.

Well actually, it doesn't baffle me but I think the points about our utterly useless PM have already been well made..........

 

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56 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

The crunch comes Indy if the NHS has to start to pick and choose who it can treat (triage).

Personally when it comes to that - no vaccine - then back of the queue (plus box of paracetamol). It was their choice.

Surely we are already all that point - not just as regards Covid but A & E generally.

More and more reports of people spending many hours both waiting for ambulances to arrive and also waiting in ambulances outside hospitals for hours before they even get as far as triage.

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20 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Surely the important point is not that they are inferior or superior to vaccination but an additional tool to vaccination - none of the tools we have are 100% as we all know.

So it baffles why it has taken this long (cases and deaths have been far too high for months now) and a new variant before we start to make proper use again of the simple, and according to the scientists pretty effective, tools we have available to help get us through this pandemic without the need to resort to the more drastic measures which we know will be the next step if the situation continues to deteriorate.

Well actually, it doesn't baffle me but I think the points about our utterly useless PM have already been well made..........

 

I guess my point is that regular vaccinations is already a sustainable way of modern life and has very little negative impact for the vast majority of people.

Masks as useful as they are aren't "normal life". I sat on a 5 hour flight wearing one and whilst I was fine to do so, it still made the experience pretty unpleasant and it's certainly not something I'd want to see normalised.

It's all well and good for people like me who rarely use public transit and shop at quieter times but for many, especially service industry workers, it's an absolute pain in the **** to have to keep up with for multiple hours a day.

I do completely agree with you that it's far better than hammer measures like lockdowns though so it does make complete sense to utilise them while things are on a knife edge as they are but we do have to eventually find a way to live without them being an every day requirement eventually. I'd be okay with them being permenant in clinical settings though as that probably made sense pre covid anyway.

You can add Madiera to that list with Japan etc. as well. They've handled the pandemic excellently all things considered. When I went in summer the only thing that wasn't "life as normal" was masks in the shops and sometimes on public transit. Any mention of lockdowns was a distant memory back to spring 2020 to them as well.

Edited by Tetteys Jig
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12 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Surely we are already all that point - not just as regards Covid but A & E generally.

More and more reports of people spending many hours both waiting for ambulances to arrive and also waiting in ambulances outside hospitals for hours before they even get as far as triage.

It is happening. I have torn my achilles playing walk football. Canot see a GP. Phoned 111. They said I would need a cast as I am too old for an operation. Referred to Surgery. See a nurse who says just do physio.

I am not complaining because there are more important things for the hospitals to deal with but it just shows how much is being put on the backburner, for now at least.

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So what’s peoples take on tomorrow’s game ? What extra precautions, if any, are you going to take, are you even still going ?

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24 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

So what’s peoples take on tomorrow’s game ? What extra precautions, if any, are you going to take, are you even still going ?

I shall be taking a minature Glenfiddich for halftime warm up.

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16 hours ago, ricardo said:

Just wait until the fag smuggling starts. 

Are they going to criminalise under age smokers?

Seems nobody learned anything from the prohibition era.

Coming at the same time as a lot of countries are waking up to the merits of legalising illegal drugs to mitigate the problems, it leaves you scratching your head at what has possessed them to go down this road. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

It is happening. I have torn my achilles playing walk football. Canot see a GP. Phoned 111. They said I would need a cast as I am too old for an operation. Referred to Surgery. See a nurse who says just do physio.

I am not complaining because there are more important things for the hospitals to deal with but it just shows how much is being put on the backburner, for now at least.

But the hospitals are empty KG.

 

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3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

This is actually alluding to a thought I made weeks go - Israel and Japan both 'crushed' Delta but we always run to explain it with the most high tech (booster) explanation whereas it could in large part be that the low tech masks and social distancing are actually far more effective than we give them credit for (Israel reintroduced them at the same time as the booster rollout etc). 

Exactly but why does the British need the government to enforce it? Are we that stupid that we can’t take care of ourselves and do a quick risk assessment? I do on a daily basis. I have a Christmas party invite to a local hotel for the 18th paid for, but I’m now seriously considering not going as we have family here (11 of us) for Christmas dinner and I don’t want to take the chance of catching any variant! We all need to take consideration to our actions.

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5 minutes ago, Indy said:

Exactly but why does the British need the government to enforce it? Are we that stupid that we can’t take care of ourselves and do a quick risk assessment? I do on a daily basis. I have a Christmas party invite to a local hotel for the 18th paid for, but I’m now seriously considering not going as we have family here (11 of us) for Christmas dinner and I don’t want to take the chance of catching any variant! We all need to take consideration to our actions.

I'd keep quiet about it if I were you otherwise the thought police will be round and half of you will have to sit in the garden.🎅😉

Edited by ricardo
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15 minutes ago, Indy said:

Exactly but why does the British need the government to enforce it? Are we that stupid that we can’t take care of ourselves and do a quick risk assessment? I do on a daily basis. I have a Christmas party invite to a local hotel for the 18th paid for, but I’m now seriously considering not going as we have family here (11 of us) for Christmas dinner and I don’t want to take the chance of catching any variant! We all need to take consideration to our actions.

Leaving aside enforcement in the current situation I suspect we'll in 'peace' time become more Japanese if we have a cold or sniffle, wearing a mask by default going forward as a courtesy to others. It's obvious really else by definition you are being totally selfish (looking at all those Tory MPs in parliament). The masks are not for your protection but to protect others as if it needed repeating.

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9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Leaving aside enforcement in the current situation I suspect we'll in 'peace' time become more Japanese if we have a cold or sniffle, wearing a mask by default going forward as a courtesy to others. It's obvious really else by definition you are being totally selfish (looking at all those Tory MPs in parliament). The masks are not for your protection but to protect others as if it needed repeating.

I’d like to think you’re correct, love to see everyone now wear masks, not face coverings but actual masks, but I was in London a month ago, I went to two shows, Mary Poppins & Back to the future and both asked you to wear masks, only about 30% of us wore masks. It wasn’t enforced even though it was clearly asked for on signs and vocally. On the tube only 50% of us were wearing masks. Shepherds Bush shopping centre was even worse hardly anyone could be bothered with masks!

So I don’t think we will as a nation become more Japanese, small percentage might but as soon as restrictions are eased masks won’t be worn mark my words.

Edited by Indy

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4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

The crunch comes Indy if the NHS has to start to pick and choose who it can treat (triage).

Personally when it comes to that - no vaccine - then back of the queue (plus box of paracetamol). It was their choice.

They don't have that luxury though, and with the state of the NHS, whilst they're doing their best, no guarantees there would be a positive outcome.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vegan-covid-vaccine-animal-testing-b1966647.html

Glynn Steel “begged for the vaccine,” his wife Emma Steel said, before he was shifted to life support. But by then it was too late for the vaccine to be effective on him, she said.

“The last thing Glynn (Steel) said to me was ‘I have never felt so ill, I wish that I had the vaccine’,” Ms Steel, who is double-vaccinated, told The Sun.

Steel had decided to skip inoculation, claiming that the vaccine was being tested on animals.

 

But things took a turn for the worse late last month after the 54-year-old man came down with a cold, and eventually tested positive for Covid-19.

Steel’s condition grew worse within days due to his age and zero vaccine immunity. Ms Steel had to call for an ambulance on 2 November but none was available. She ended up having to drive him to the hospital. At that point, Steel was unconscious.

By November 10, Steel had slipped into a medically-induced coma after being put on life-support. He was barely making any progress while fighting the infection. On 16 November, he died within minutes of the life-support machine being turned off, the report added.

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3 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

Steel had decided to skip inoculation, claiming that the vaccine was being tested on animals.

 

 

Requiem for the Anti Vaxers.

Don't play dice with "The Grim Reaper"

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