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5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

If that is your opinion then so be it. I can assure you I meant no harm to KC. I haven't read the posts in which you seem to signify he is worked up.

I found his post derisory. You found mine that way. We are miles apart on this one. Familiar territory with us two I'm afraid.

 

“Somebody hurt my feelings (despite not even posting anything to me personally) so I openly mocked them. Anyone does the same to me and they are arrogant bullies, sniffle sniffle”. Top chap. As you say very far apart, let’s leave it there.

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1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Sorry for posting a clickbaity EDP link.

Didn't somebody say there was 'Westminster' bubble which sounded odd at first . Could it just be karma ?

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National

39,716 -  159

rate of increase of 1%      will go green tomorrow

Local

Norwich   West rate             233.6       Local   R  estimated 0.9 - 1.1

    

N&N Patients

   
 
23-11-2021             28
22-11-2021 27
21-11-2021 25
20-11-2021 24
   

Vax     

1st Dose      23,391              88.6% done                               Norwich numbers   77.5% 

2nd Dose     26,092              80.6% done                                                                  70.6%


Booster     318,671     total          18,215,535                 31.7%

In Hospital  

29-11-2021                            7,631
28-11-2021 7,410
27-11-2021 7,385
26-11-2021 7,540
25-11-2021 7,645
24-11-2021 7,659
23-11-2021 7,909

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2 hours ago, ricardo said:

Note.

There is a delay in releasing Covid Dashboard numbers until at least 6pm today.

Conspiracy Theorists may now speculate as to the reason.😀 (rubber keys may have fallen out of the ZX Spectrum)

Quite possibly or perhaps they've broken the row limit on the spreadsheet again 😂

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3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

A bit concerning the 9 Scottish cases at private party. Was it the antivaxers ball?

Big game hunters returning from safari in S Africa.

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9 hours ago, Aggy said:

I get that, and it’s difficult, but given there isn’t really any downside to having the vaccine I’m not keen on splitting age groups. I just don’t like the idea of making things mandatory on arbitrary grounds. Why 60 and not 59 or 62? Why based solely on age and not factoring in that some people under 60 might need hospitalisation while some over 60 might not?

Its a wider point for me, and I just think slippery slope every time I see things like this. What I couldn’t tell from the article was whether this was voted on. It sounds from the article (although doesn’t expressly state) as if this has been imposed by the government rather than via a vote in Parliament? If that’s the case, even more slippery slope IMO. 

what's the issue with age discrimination when there's such overwhelming evidence where the issues lie?

We discriminate by age for plenty of things from when you can drive a car to when you can have sex and for good reason. Sure you might get the odd underage person who is probably mature enough to make a decent informed decision just as there are plenty over the age of consent/learner driver age that still lack the required maturity but generally we know its a bad idea to "let the market decide" so to speak so we have laws against these things to avoid car crashes and unwanted pregnancies amongst other things...

Sure there would be people who think they are an exception to the rule, perhaps a healthy 60 year old who is amazing at cycling or still works out etc. but we know that generally, unvacinated OAPs represent an absolutely colossal potential problem to our health service. You pick an arbitrary age based on where the measures would have the most impact. Perhaps it may need to be more like 50 in line with the JCVI 1 to 9 list or perhaps younger but I'd need to see the hospitalisation data.

To me, that sort of thing would make far more sense than more disruptive general rules slapped on everyone that might not even target the right areas and therefore not actually solve anything. Sure if the parameters of Covid drastically change then a new conversation would need to be had but in current circumstances, our very high OAP vaccination rate is what is seperating us from the likes of Germany who can't seem to keep their hospitals from getting overwhelmed thanks to 3 million very foolish OAPs.

I tell you what would be a slippery slope... more lockdowns and invasive restrictions to protect mostly an unvaccinated population.

Sure if this goes nuts and turns into super ebola like that bedwetter Upo seems to think will happen then we'd need a complete rethink but for now the answer is so simple. Get vaccinated.

 

Edited by Tetteys Jig

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8 hours ago, Tetteys Jig said:

https://m.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/covid-1st-data-about-vaccine-efficacy-against-omicron-expected-tuesday-687392/amp

Israel seem confident existing vaccines will smash Omicron. Hopefully the first trickles of good news 🙏

Still the same coming out of Africa regarding this variant being more mild than the Delta. So fingers crossed we get a double positive of confirmed milder effect and vaccines still good against this variant too. We can all breath a little easier in a few days!👍

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5 minutes ago, Indy said:

Still the same coming out of Africa regarding this variant being more mild than the Delta. So fingers crossed we get a double positive of confirmed milder effect and vaccines still good against this variant too. We can all breath a little easier in a few days!👍

such a weird little virus isn't it? It can't make it's mind up what it wants really. The ultimate troll to civilisation.

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11 hours ago, Tetteys Jig said:

what's the issue with age discrimination when there's such overwhelming evidence where the issues lie?

We discriminate by age for plenty of things from when you can drive a car to when you can have sex and for good reason. Sure you might get the odd underage person who is probably mature enough to make a decent informed decision just as there are plenty over the age of consent/learner driver age that still lack the required maturity but generally we know its a bad idea to "let the market decide" so to speak so we have laws against these things to avoid car crashes and unwanted pregnancies amongst other things...

Sure there would be people who think they are an exception to the rule, perhaps a healthy 60 year old who is amazing at cycling or still works out etc. but we know that generally, unvacinated OAPs represent an absolutely colossal potential problem to our health service. You pick an arbitrary age based on where the measures would have the most impact. Perhaps it may need to be more like 50 in line with the JCVI 1 to 9 list or perhaps younger but I'd need to see the hospitalisation data.

To me, that sort of thing would make far more sense than more disruptive general rules slapped on everyone that might not even target the right areas and therefore not actually solve anything. Sure if the parameters of Covid drastically change then a new conversation would need to be had but in current circumstances, our very high OAP vaccination rate is what is seperating us from the likes of Germany who can't seem to keep their hospitals from getting overwhelmed thanks to 3 million very foolish OAPs.

I tell you what would be a slippery slope... more lockdowns and invasive restrictions to protect mostly an unvaccinated population.

Sure if this goes nuts and turns into super ebola like that bedwetter Upo seems to think will happen then we'd need a complete rethink but for now the answer is so simple. Get vaccinated.

 

That’s all to do with capacity though rather than risk. Smoking has the same effect on the body whether you’re 24 or 14, but a 14 year old we don’t deem old enough to decide whether to pollute their body. Same with alcohol. Driving, obviously there needs to be a cut off - 7 year olds can’t drive cars because they haven’t got the capacity to do so. I have no problems with rules being based on capacity.

The slippery slope point is - especially where as I mentioned it seemed from the article that it was not voted on by the Greek parliament  - that having a government make health related items mandatory without a vote of parliament and based solely on something as arbitrary as age is worrying. You’re allowing a small group of decision makers to come up with the criteria and enforce it on people with no checks or balance - fine if we’re talking about small time stuff like bin collections but not when it’s about mandatory vaccines and health.

Once the precedent is set, what stops in fifty years time some nut job prime minister making something else up - eg; mandatory sterilisation for x arbitrary group of people. Compulsory “imprisonment” in care homes for anyone over x arbitrary age regardless of mental and physical capacity. Etc. Obviously that’s a long way from mandatory vaccines, but that’s why I’m against it. Even if it’s voted on in parliament, what’s protecting minorities from such a thing? 

I’m not trying to blow it out of proportion and I’m not trying to say mandatory vaccines are going to lead to some horrendous ethnic cleansing rules in the next six months. Obviously they’re very far apart, but why even go there?

There doesn’t seem any good reason not to make vaccines mandatory for all, and if that’s the case, I’m struggling to see what the justification is for imposing mandatory rules discriminating against a huge chunk of the population based on something as entirely arbitrary as age.

Edit: ps I’m not suggesting lockdowns are an alternative. I’m suggesting either you make something like vaccines mandatory for all or for no-one.

Edited by Aggy

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

That’s all to do with capacity though rather than risk. Smoking has the same effect on the body whether you’re 24 or 14, but a 14 year old we don’t deem old enough to decide whether to pollute their body. Same with alcohol. Driving, obviously there needs to be a cut off - 7 year olds can’t drive cars because they haven’t got the capacity to do so. I have no problems with rules being based on capacity.

The slippery slope point is - especially where as I mentioned it seemed from the article that it was not voted on by the Greek parliament  - that having a government make health related items mandatory without a vote of parliament and based solely on something as arbitrary as age is worrying. You’re allowing a small group of decision makers to come up with the criteria and enforce it on people with no checks or balance - fine if we’re talking about small time stuff like bin collections but not when it’s about mandatory vaccines and health.

Once the precedent is set, what stops in fifty years time some nut job prime minister making something else up - eg; mandatory sterilisation for x arbitrary group of people. Compulsory “imprisonment” in care homes for anyone over x arbitrary age regardless of mental and physical capacity. Etc. Obviously that’s a long way from mandatory vaccines, but that’s why I’m against it. Even if it’s voted on in parliament, what’s protecting minorities from such a thing? 

I’m not trying to blow it out of proportion and I’m not trying to say mandatory vaccines are going to lead to some horrendous ethnic cleansing rules in the next six months. Obviously they’re very far apart, but why even go there?

There doesn’t seem any good reason not to make vaccines mandatory for all, and if that’s the case, I’m struggling to see what the justification is for imposing mandatory rules discriminating against a huge chunk of the population based on something as entirely arbitrary as age.

Edit: ps I’m not suggesting lockdowns are an alternative. I’m suggesting either you make something like vaccines mandatory for all or for no-one.

Thankfully I don't think we are where Greece is as the vast majority of our elderly folk got vaccinated without the need for cooercion etc.

As for the "capacity" argument, why do over 70s have to reapply for their licence? Why is the state pension age 66 (or whatever it is now).

It's because it's been judged that at those ages, you're too old to be required to work and too old to be left to drive without being reassessed since its likely your vision won't be what it was.

Again, there are plenty of people in their 70s perfectly capable of doing a day's physical labour or continuing to drive a car so the Capacity argument works both ways.

if it is deemed that we don't have the capacity to deal with a bunch of unvaccinated elderly people then we have to do 1 of 3 things:

1 - nothing and let the health system collapse

2 - make them get vaccinated by whatever means necessary or make them pay for any covid treatment they may need since the system can't afford to cater for so many sick people.

3 - blanket, invasive measures to either a select group or to everyone (vaccine passports, lockdowns etc.)

so what would be the answer?

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1 hour ago, Tetteys Jig said:

Thankfully I don't think we are where Greece is as the vast majority of our elderly folk got vaccinated without the need for cooercion etc.

As for the "capacity" argument, why do over 70s have to reapply for their licence? Why is the state pension age 66 (or whatever it is now).

It's because it's been judged that at those ages, you're too old to be required to work and too old to be left to drive without being reassessed since its likely your vision won't be what it was.

Again, there are plenty of people in their 70s perfectly capable of doing a day's physical labour or continuing to drive a car so the Capacity argument works both ways.

if it is deemed that we don't have the capacity to deal with a bunch of unvaccinated elderly people then we have to do 1 of 3 things:

1 - nothing and let the health system collapse

2 - make them get vaccinated by whatever means necessary or make them pay for any covid treatment they may need since the system can't afford to cater for so many sick people.

3 - blanket, invasive measures to either a select group or to everyone (vaccine passports, lockdowns etc.)

so what would be the answer?

Over 70s reapply for their licence based on capacity - eyesight, reflexes starts to go etc. If they pass, no issues they can still drive. If they don’t, they can’t drive. That’s capacity to drive. Agree it could be a different age so it is still arbitrary but it’s not a blanket ban on driving, it’s an age you have to do nothing more than a reassessment. I wouldn’t argue against everyone having to do a reassessment every five or ten years to be honest regardless of age - would seem very sensible.

State pension isn’t discriminatory - you aren’t banned from doing work (or anything else). I would agree with making pension and things like bus passes more means based rather than simply based on age. But being given an amount of money each week isn’t discriminatory. Everyone is entitled to state pension - which is also why there is so much uproar each time pension age gets pushed back (“how come my grandma got it at 60 and I won’t get it until 70”). But you can rest assured that when you get to pension age you will get it too, so where’s the discrimination?

And number 3 of your choices is the obvious answer to me - for everyone or no one. 
 

The justification for lockdowns has (in my mind) always been that if a&e is overflowing, everyone suffers. A twenty year old in a car crash can’t get life saving treatment as we’re full with covid patients. It hasn’t only been about stopping old people from dying. So all the way through it has been about fairness for all. 

When some on here were saying “why should I, a vaccinated 70 year old, have to be locked down when I’ve got a jab” - the answer was that it wasn’t fair because the under 40s weren’t able to get a vaccine, so everyone or nobody had to be locked down.

Im not a fan of vaccine passports, but requiring everyone to have one is infinitely better than picking and choosing which sectors of society need one and which dont.

Edited by Aggy

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6 hours ago, Indy said:

Still the same coming out of Africa regarding this variant being more mild than the Delta. So fingers crossed we get a double positive of confirmed milder effect and vaccines still good against this variant too. We can all breath a little easier in a few days!👍

 

Edited by Van wink
seems to have posted twice

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6 hours ago, Indy said:

Still the same coming out of Africa regarding this variant being more mild than the Delta. So fingers crossed we get a double positive of confirmed milder effect and vaccines still good against this variant too. We can all breath a little easier in a few days!👍

Cheers Indy, I'm not sure of the data source Israel is using, or indeed if this is being accurately reported, I am aware of the anectdotal stuff coming out of SA. To be honest having had a career in Public Health I have been really worried about this variant, if this recently reported information is in fact accurate ( atm I dont see the epidemiological evidence but its too early for that ) that will be a huge a relief and will in fact form part of a long term way out of the pandemic. Fingers crossed.

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30 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Cheers Indy, I'm not sure of the data source Israel is using, or indeed if this is being accurately reported, I am aware of the anectdotal stuff coming out of SA. To be honest having had a career in Public Health I have been really worried about this variant, if this recently reported information is in fact accurate ( atm I dont see the epidemiological evidence but its too early for that ) that will be a huge a relief and will in fact form part of a long term way out of the pandemic. Fingers crossed.

I’m prone to just post the more positive reports as I don’t think it does anyone good to jump on the negative as some do without the full evidence. Initial news does look encouraging but we wait to see, to be honest I’m glad mandatory mask wearing is back along with hygiene and distancing where we can, people tend to forget Flu this year being a pretty bad year prediction by those in the know, the vaccines for flu are only around 55% effective so nowhere near Covid vaccines.

If being a little sensible saves lives then why not.

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National

48,374 - 171

rate of increase of 0.7%      virtually static

Local

Norwich   West rate             216.3      Local   R  estimated 0.9 - 1.1

    

N&N Patients

   
 
23-11-2021             28
22-11-2021 27
21-11-2021 25
20-11-2021 24
   

Vax     

1st Dose      30,539              88.7% done                               Norwich numbers   77.5% 

2nd Dose     32,157              80.7% done                                                                  70.6%


Booster     392,589     total          18,608,124                 32.4%

In Hospital  

30-11-2021                                       7,634
29-11-2021 7,634
28-11-2021 7,412
27-11-2021 7,388
26-11-2021 7,544
25-11-2021 7,648
24-11-2021 7,661

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Big Omicron surge in S.Africa. Will the rest of the world see a similar rise?

South Africa COVID update: Cases surge 571% from last week, testing up 47%

- New cases: 8,561
- Average: 3,797 (+1,041)
- Positivity rate: 16.5% (+6.3)
- In hospital: 2,550 (+136)
- In ICU: 235 (+1)
- New deaths: 28
- Average: 31 (+1)

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43 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Big Omicron surge in S.Africa. Will the rest of the world see a similar rise?

South Africa COVID update: Cases surge 571% from last week, testing up 47%

- New cases: 8,561
- Average: 3,797 (+1,041)
- Positivity rate: 16.5% (+6.3)
- In hospital: 2,550 (+136)
- In ICU: 235 (+1)
- New deaths: 28
- Average: 31 (+1)

Just shows we know not a lot about this variant yet, if only your mate Ryan had been correct. 

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Latest dogs dinner chart, Devon and Sussex look like the spikey areas, everywhere else roughly flat.

 

Image

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21 hours ago, ricardo said:

Big game hunters returning from safari in S Africa.

It just seemed unlikely that they'd all be unvaccinated ... or where they?

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20 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It just seemed unlikely that they'd all be unvaccinated ... or where they?

All traced to one event apparently, was it COP26?

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