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11 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Well officially cases could now hit 100,000 a day (Zoe already has at > 80K/day) !

Nothing more need be said about this governments incompetence and certainly no excuses. This will the THIRD time around this particular dithering loop with few to no lessons learnt.

A dark Greek tragedy come comedy of errors

I wonder if Johnson feels at all uncomfortable looking over at Bolsonaro's current legal  predicament?

 

Apropos of nothing,just thought you'd like to know, but I have been listening to a radio series about the Nuremberg Trials. It's very good. 😉

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Here we go again with the “Sick man of Europe” and “Plague island” digs.

At least there won’t be another lockdown, as that’s just media scare tactics which gets them clicks. If there is, the public won’t comply such as leaving their area even if the pubs and “non-essential” shops are shut. The government know this and will make it obvious to the public that they have failed should they initiate one.

As for being “The frontliner of Europe” for cases, we test more than many major country on the continent per capita. If other European nations did also, I can see Spain and Italy…. maybe Germany as well as Belgium* all being worse.

*once had the most deaths per 1 million earlier in the year.

Edited by KernowCanary

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13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

. At one time there were 29 hospitals outside Treliske Hospital waiting to offload.

 

You must have very wide roads down your way KG.

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11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

5 million people have still made no move to be vaccinated.

This is the nub of the problem.

There are is it 12 million or so under 16's in the UK.

Few are vaccinated and certainly not when Johnson blindly opened up in the summer without a care.

Totally, totally predictable.  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

There are is it 12 million or so under 16's in the UK.

Few are vaccinated and certainly not when Johnson blindly opened up in the summer without a care.

Totally, totally predictable.  

 

 

Its not the under 16's who are in hospital or dying, its the higher age groups and mostly unvaccinated.

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Just now, ricardo said:

Its not the under 16's who are in hospital or dying, its the higher age groups and mostly unvaccinated.

Image

But it's this very group that will spread it back up the generations to you and everybody else - as they are all ready doing.

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2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

But it's this very group that will spread it back up the generations to you and everybody else - as they are all ready doing.

Perhaps the JCVI shouldn't have wasted the entire summer debating whether schoolchildren should or should not be given a jab while other countries got staright on with it.

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With all the crap we are in with petrol etc, alongside furlough ending, it would be stupid to do another lockdown.

It will only happen if the MSM scum keep digging for it.

Edited by KernowCanary

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18 hours ago, Aggy said:

How do you know it’s out of kilter though if you haven’t got the pre-covid figures? 

Ignoring that point though, waiting lists were increasing year on year before covid. Far more to do with an ever aging society and a lack of funding in healthcare. Covid has accelerated the increase, but I expect we’d have had the current waiting lengths in 2023 or so even if we hadn’t had covid. Many millions were denied treatment for many many months in 2019. We didn’t lock down then.

We have for many years, especially in the winter, pushed non urgent treatment back to be able to carry out urgent surgery and have beds for critical care free. We didn’t lock down then.

We’ve had nowhere near enough funding in healthcare and later life treatment/living/facilities for decades. More people seem to now be aware of it as a result of covid, but it was a mess in 2019 too and has been for years. Hospitals are close to being overwhelmed every year. People get turned away from one hospital and moved to another because there aren’t beds. This all happened in 2019. We didn’t lock down then.

So is it sustainable currently? Well, it wasn’t sustainable in 2019.

But unless we’re at a point where people can’t get emergency life saving treatment, then the answer isn’t lockdowns and restrictions. It’s investing properly in health and social care.

 

There are several things in there I agree with; waiting lists were increasing pre-2019 although you are wrong to say many millions were denied treatment in 2019, the waiting list was only just over half a million in 2019 and the wait times were only a small fraction of what they are now.

That was a result of underfunding as you suggest except it is not a decades old problem but a decade old problem - a decade of Tory austerity which hit the NHS as it hit all public services.  Of course you could always, at any point in time, argue a very reasonable case that the NHS requires more funds than it is receiving (or did receive) but there is a very clear dividing line between the level of funding received by the NHS between the previous Labour administration and the Tory one that followed.

Even if we had a government that is prepared to invest what is needed to resolve these problems (and it is pretty clear that this government isn't) that would still mean only a very gradual improvement could be achieved and would therefore need to be sustained for many years to even return back to roughly where we were 10 years ago, never mind the improvements we need in mental health care, cancer treatment etc, and of course social care which is both another issue in its own right as well as a factor in clogging up the NHS.

So I completely disagree with your statement 'But unless we’re at a point where people can’t get emergency life saving treatment, then the answer isn’t lockdowns and restrictions' because when you say 'can't get emergency life saving treatment' I presume you are only including those in pretty immediate danger of dying as 'emergencies'.

But that definition ignores other categories of patients whose demise is probably still some months away and quite preventable if they receive prompt life saving treatment but for whom a delay is effectively a death sentence - some aggressive forms of cancer are the obvious example but they don't meet your (or the NHS's) definition of an emergency.

So we need to invest properly in health and social care - the need is a given but in reality it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future and even if by some miracle it were to start tomorrow it wouldn't have a significant impact on the rapidly approaching crisis this winter, so IMO the only thing we can do to assist the NHS get through this winter is to take some measures to reduce the load that Covid is placing on our hospitals.

As you will no doubt have seen this morning, many in the NHS are now openly saying the same thing.

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Young people are spreading it, older are being hospitalised. None of them wear masks, none of them care.

Gov't should have brought in vaccine passports liked they threatened.

All this was totally inevitable and we sleep walk to another lockdown and/or restrictions.

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3 minutes ago, KernowCanary said:

With all the crap we are in with petrol etc, alongside furlough ending, it would be stupid to do another lockdown.

I think that is very debateable, and its certainly no more stupid than pretending that there is nothing we can do to improve the current situation which appears to be the Government's current (failing) strategy.

Lockdown is only the most severe option, out of a number of possible options we could introduce to reduce the spread.

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Perhaps the JCVI shouldn't have wasted the entire summer debating whether schoolchildren should or should not be given a jab while other countries got staright on with it.

I said we should vaccinate the kids months ago, unfortunately a minority put pressure on for this not to happen, and as we know Johnson only goes with what he thinks his followers will be happy with. You’ve avoided what I said though, the Scots in particular got on with it and by the end of 1/2 term will probably get as high as will be possible, Johnson went a different way and England is miles behind. Javid announces a U turn in Parliament yesterday, however he has no idea how it will be done and as it is currently impossible we had parents on the phone telling us about the announcement, asking us how they booked and the NHS being made to look stupid as we had no idea. You still can’t book today.

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14 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Young people are spreading it, older are being hospitalised. None of them wear masks, none of them care.

Gov't should have brought in vaccine passports liked they threatened.

All this was totally inevitable and we sleep walk to another lockdown and/or restrictions.

Yes, but that was far from their only mistake - we were weeks, or months in some cases, later than most European countries in vaccinating the younger age group, possibly a bigger mistake.

Plus of course we removed the final restrictions at a point when case numbers were dropping quite quickly but still at a ridiculously high level - Johnson said repeatedly throughout the last lockdown that the decisions on unlocking would be driven by 'data not dates' but in the end, as we always knew he would, he ignored the data and went with the dates.

That decision, as @Van wink said the other day, could have been a calculated gamble to try and get the peak(s) out of the way before the onset of winter. Personally, I don't think there was any calculation involved - as with so many of Johnson's decisions on the pandemic response, he ducked a difficult decision and just hoped it would all somehow work out alright and of course it didn't this time, just as it didn't on the earlier occasions.

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Our neighbours (doubly jabbed) got Covid 2 weeks ago. Both in mid 70s. Bloke still struggling with severe tiredness but both didn't need hospital thankfully. So, I'm thinking vaccines work of course otherwise they could have been unlucky and  another statistic.

Neither are mask wearers. 

One issue for me apart from a troubled vaccine roll out for the main vectors of the disease (younger people) was the Freedom Day nonsense in July. It gave the wrong message when we ought to have reinforced caution ...not freedom. I know it's a word but it was political. It was such a non- serious and flippant message. Maybe for some it never gets through. But it has felt as if we were not still in the midst of a pandemic. 

I read Javid thinks cases could rise to 100k. So maybe they are no longer guided by the data (seeing above in Ricardo's tables too that hospitalisation numbers have risen greatly in a week).

What is the problem with asking people to mask, distance, work more from home and be careful? Not even a change to the messaging? Alongside vaccinating younger people, why not make the above policy?

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31 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its not the under 16's who are in hospital or dying, its the higher age groups and mostly unvaccinated.

Image

I don’t understand in the over 50’s nearly 95% are vaccinated, as you go up the age ranges it gets even bigger, yet well over 50% of your chart shows the over 50’s dying. If they are not vaccinated then surely the government should have these figures on the news every day as the easiest way of showing the unvaccinated are the only ones dying.

I have to say unlike your friends quote of only 1 vaccinated person was in hospital, that is not what I see. The vaccinations are doing an amazing job, as they were intended, to keep people out of hospital and have so far done that. There is a however though, the boosters are essential and in month 1 only just over 3 million took up their booster from a total of over 8 million. I always thought boosters were immoral, but now I have seen the loss of immunity figures, especially AstraZeneca ( down to 47% after 20 weeks ) without boosters being taken up we are in the ****. 

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14 minutes ago, Well b back said:

have to say unlike your friends quote of only 1 vaccinated person was in hospital, that is not what I see

A report last month I saw stated that 54% of the study in hospital with Covid were fully vaccinated WBB.

Edit: source for the above was the Irish Times. A BBC report more recently stated 13% of those being hospitalised in Wales were UNvaccinated. 

Unfortunately it's the over 60's that are much more likely. ....that's not a surprise of course.

Edited by sonyc

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1 minute ago, sonyc said:

A report last month I saw stated that 54% of the study in hospital with Covid were fully vaccinated WBB.

That chimes pretty much with what my daughter says about the patients she has been treating recently.

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could be worse, Romania looks a right mess... only a third of people bothered take their jab and they went from basically zero cases in summer to absolute chaos now. Just makes me wonder how long we'd have to put up with any measures brought in. Personally think we need to copy Israel in crushing delta with the focus on indiscriminate booster shots, don't know why we've been so complacent in that regard since it's such an easy win.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That chimes pretty much with what my daughter says about the patients she has been treating recently.

I think people get confused with 'age adjusted' and absolute numbers. Age adjusted sure its the unvaccinated but in absolute terms its the older vaccinated. It is of course fully what we would expect with high vaccination rates and high covid infections. Several articles on this seemingly statistical quirk last summer 

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This thread is eally worth a read imo. Decent analysis (and graphs for those that like them). Click for all the points he makes.

A few key points but what stood out for me is the figure of 3.2% of over 60's who die (vaccinated) against 14.3% who die who are not vaccinated. Secondly, that context matters and to be cautious and wary of numbers (from any side).

Booster programme needs to be accelerated.

 

 

Edited by sonyc
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39 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

could be worse, Romania looks a right mess... only a third of people bothered take their jab and they went from basically zero cases in summer to absolute chaos now. Just makes me wonder how long we'd have to put up with any measures brought in. Personally think we need to copy Israel in crushing delta with the focus on indiscriminate booster shots, don't know why we've been so complacent in that regard since it's such an easy win.

Hi TJ

Unfortunately it could be better. Our vaccine uptake is not brilliant at 67% of the population with the likes of Portugal at 85%. If rumours are correct in the next couple of weeks the EU will be approving Pfizer for 5 - 12 year olds. In addition most over 70’s in Portugal have already had their boosters. At 800 cases per day Portugal are claiming if the 5 - 12’s are vaccinated they could finally reach the promised land of herd immunity. Rightly or wrongly they don’t see the U.K. as good to have near their borders.

With regards complacency for the boosters, if I am out on the vans a lot of the older folk don’t even realise they are entitled to a booster, let alone that they can have it at 6 months minus 4 days. As I said earlier with regards the boosters the government are sleep walking, but of course will blame others. Only 1/3 of those eligible have come forward, and despite my love for the AstraZeneca vaccine I really think those with 2 doses of AZ need to get that dose of Pfizer in them. Have a glance at the countries using vaccine passes and masks and compare them to those that don’t.

We need to launch an offensive on the anti vaxers, as you saw yesterday Gove was quite taken by shock, but let me assure you when I am out on the road I have that 3 times a day and up until yesterday the government didn’t care. We sometimes have 250 March on a van. This group will show you the same sort of thing as we see on here, masks are useless, our hospitals are empty, nobody under 80 dies and the same graphs and photos saying hospital numbers are non existent and there are more in hospital double vaccinated than not vaccinated. This is all very misleading and needs to be corrected daily, but we see nothing.

I suspect mask wearing will possibly come back, but our restrictions inside the U.K. will not change much, however those that don’t like liberties taken away, beware as your movement outside the U.K. may soon be extremely restricted.

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3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This thread is eally worth a read imo. Decent analysis (and graphs for those that like them). Click for all the points he makes.

A few key points but what stood out for me is the figure of 3.2% of over 60's who die (vaccinated) against 14.3% who die who are not vaccinated.

Booster programme needs to be accelerated.

 

 

Listen to Peston SONYC the Israeli guy is about to be on and he will tell you how if we don’t get the boosters done we are in s***. He will be using facts, and don’t forget they vaccinated with Pfizer that stays at 77% after 20 weeks. AZ is 47% at 20 weeks.

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16 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Hi TJ

Unfortunately it could be better. Our vaccine uptake is not brilliant at 67% of the population with the likes of Portugal at 85%. If rumours are correct in the next couple of weeks the EU will be approving Pfizer for 5 - 12 year olds. In addition most over 70’s in Portugal have already had their boosters. At 800 cases per day Portugal are claiming if the 5 - 12’s are vaccinated they could finally reach the promised land of herd immunity. Rightly or wrongly they don’t see the U.K. as good to have near their borders.

With regards complacency for the boosters, if I am out on the vans a lot of the older folk don’t even realise they are entitled to a booster, let alone that they can have it at 6 months minus 4 days. As I said earlier with regards the boosters the government are sleep walking, but of course will blame others. Only 1/3 of those eligible have come forward, and despite my love for the AstraZeneca vaccine I really think those with 2 doses of AZ need to get that dose of Pfizer in them. Have a glance at the countries using vaccine passes and masks and compare them to those that don’t.

We need to launch an offensive on the anti vaxers, as you saw yesterday Gove was quite taken by shock, but let me assure you when I am out on the road I have that 3 times a day and up until yesterday the government didn’t care. We sometimes have 250 March on a van. This group will show you the same sort of thing as we see on here, masks are useless, our hospitals are empty, nobody under 80 dies and the same graphs and photos saying hospital numbers are non existent and there are more in hospital double vaccinated than not vaccinated. This is all very misleading and needs to be corrected daily, but we see nothing.

I suspect mask wearing will possibly come back, but our restrictions inside the U.K. will not change much, however those that don’t like liberties taken away, beware as your movement outside the U.K. may soon be extremely restricted.

I suppose my main point was that our vaccination uptake in the over 50s was exceptional... 95% I believe. That in itself should stop us getting anywhere near last winters levels of hospitalisations and deaths. I do think you'll basically fare as well as your vaccination rates in the end. Hopefully these boosters send antibody levels an order of magnitude better so they don't wane anywhere near as quickly and frequent repeat booster campaigns aren't needed.

Once the virus has gone through the school age population there won't be many completely naive groups left for it to attack so thats when we'll see how ****ed we really are long term. I'm still clinging onto Sarah Gilbert's prediction that eventually this will turn into a slightly nuisance common cold once a decent level of protection is established, just wish it would hurry up!

As for the antivaxxers, it's depressing watching them act like they do. I saw a video of them harassing a hospital today... I guess that's what you get as a byproduct of living in a relatively free country, the right to behave like that and not end up shot or in prison. Genuinely don't know what the answer with them is but certainly don't want to lose a few more hesitant people that could be gently persuaded along the way by being too draconian and forceful with things.

Personally speaking, I got my holiday away in summer, I'm double jabbed, I WFH anyway and I rarely take public transport so "plan b" wouldn't really affect my day to day life. It's more what would happen after that which concerns me. How long do they do that for? Does it not leave them open to eventually getting hit with a load of cases etc. anyway unless they do these measures long term/forever? Just feels like kicking the can down the road a bit to me which is less appealing since we don't have a vaccine to wait for now. Some point we're going to have to accept covid as part of life and place it into the background unless people are cool living with measures forever.

Edited by Tetteys Jig
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9 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

I suppose my main point was that our vaccination uptake in the over 50s was exceptional... 95% I believe. That in itself should stop us getting anywhere near last winters levels of hospitalisations and deaths. I do think you'll basically fare as well as your vaccination rates in the end. Hopefully these boosters send antibody levels an order of magnitude better so they don't wane anywhere near as quickly and frequent repeat booster campaigns aren't needed.

Once the virus has gone through the school age population there won't be many completely naive groups left for it to attack so thats when we'll see how ****ed we really are long term. I'm still clinging onto Sarah Gilbert's prediction that eventually this will turn into a slightly nuisance common cold once a decent level of protection is established, just wish it would hurry up!

As for the antivaxxers, it's depressing watching them act like they do. I saw a video of them harassing a hospital today... I guess that's what you get as a byproduct of living in a relatively free country, the right to behave like that and not end up shot or in prison. Genuinely don't know what the answer with them is but certainly don't want to lose a few more hesitant people that could be gently persuaded along the way by being too draconian and forceful with things.

Personally speaking, I got my holiday away in summer, I'm double jabbed, I WFH anyway and I rarely take public transport so "plan b" wouldn't really affect my day to day life. It's more what would happen after that which concerns me. How long do they do that for? Does it not leave them open to eventually getting hit with a load of cases etc. anyway unless they do these measures long term/forever? Just feels like kicking the can down the road a bit to me which is less appealing since we don't have a vaccine to wait for now. Some point we're going to have to accept covid as part of life and place it into the background unless people are cool living with measures forever.

Don’t know if you are watching Peston ? Israel have pretty much proved you need a booster ( they say at 20 weeks ) or you go backwards fast. Their figures are astonishing before and after the boosters. The guy said they are now monitoring those boosted and are looking at when they may well need jab 4.

Interesting as well in Wales they are saying their hospitalisations are increasing because they were ahead of the rest of the U.K. with the initial jabs and their immunity is decreasing fast. 
As has just been said as well all the hubs you used to use are shut down, don’t blame the NHS for that. Apparently we will not be able to vaccinate all those at risk with a booster until March 2022 at the current rate. If you have done 6 months I cannot stress enough if you haven’t been invited to book, find a walk in, if the government can’t persuade you how vital it is maybe I can, don’t wait get it done. And that’s somebody talking who completely disagreed with the boosters, the figures of immunity waiting are scary.

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43 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This thread is eally worth a read imo. Decent analysis (and graphs for those that like them). Click for all the points he makes.

A few key points but what stood out for me is the figure of 3.2% of over 60's who die (vaccinated) against 14.3% who die who are not vaccinated. Secondly, that context matters and to be cautious and wary of numbers (from any side).

Booster programme needs to be accelerated.

 

 

Its a good thread SC but just to clarify the percentages you quote are not the absolutes but derived as explained in the thread. If everybody is double vaxed then 100% of those in hospital will be double vaxed too !

Anyway, the only thing I would quibble with is simple percentages of positive tests. That's open to all sorts of distortions both ways. Only test those you're pretty sure have Covid and you'll get an artificially high prevalence. Ditto for those that do lots of tests more randomly will give a truer but lower number (like us). Simply not a good measure for international comparisons.

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@Tetteys Jig

Regards the anti vaxers they take our photos and tell us we will be tried and hung as per the Nuremberg trials, and when we get a big group they chant at us ‘ hang them all ‘. The police do rock all except tell us we should pack up to keep the peace. Now please don’t think I am suggesting what the police did outside Parliament is wrong as I feel this is what should happen all the time, but why does nothing happen when it’s doctors and nurses being threatened, we never know if they have a knife or gun. I am sure it was similar the video you saw outside a hospital. You must remember the Trafalgar Square rally in front of thousands went unchallenged by government and police. I have put the video below, you can play spot the police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58987040

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/anti-vaxxer-slammed-comparing-nhs-24610532

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7 minutes ago, Well b back said:

@Tetteys Jig

Regards the anti vaxers they take our photos and tell us we will be tried and hung as per the Nuremberg trials, and when we get a big group they chant at us ‘ hang them all ‘. The police do rock all except tell us we should pack up to keep the peace. Now please don’t think I am suggesting what the police did outside Parliament is wrong as I feel this is what should happen all the time, but why does nothing happen when it’s doctors and nurses being threatened, we never know if they have a knife or gun. I am sure it was similar the video you saw outside a hospital. You must remember the Trafalgar Square rally in front of thousands went unchallenged by government and police. I have put the video below, you can play spot the police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58987040

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/anti-vaxxer-slammed-comparing-nhs-24610532

Your stories are very disturbing WBB...I've seen a few posts where you've described the intimidation you're encountering in quite a stark manner. This account is very scary.

Perhaps something you may be getting used to (and if I think back to my housing management days I used to get regular threats, my window over my office desk would be smashed monthly, I've been attacked twice, staff were attacked and abused very regularly, our office was torched....I could tell some very interesting stories actually😐...but I'm digressing) ...but when you get used to stuff like you've outlined you do grow a thicker skin. Siege mentality takes hold too (watched that storming of Capitol Hill 6th January doc tonight too!). The thing is...this should not be happening in any decent civilised society. It's incredible that the police do little for your teams. 

I believe very strongly that it's about leadership. And by that I do mean nationally. It's about setting a tone for the way society ought to be. I know that sounds like I'm being moralistic. I suppose I am being so. But...it's about maturity, honesty, transparency and such values and all those kinds of things. I could see how those that stormed Capitol Hill were used and so influenced by their 'leader' ...and what power people give to those in administration. It's parental actually.

It's what worries me most in the UK at present. Not one Conservative voter should rely on this present administration. There's something quite amiss with it.  I'm fearful of not just a bad winter pandemic-wise but also the build up of tension being stoked in the culture wars of this present government. It isn't doing a great job of demonstrating what the values of the country should be in its way of governing.  On the contrary it is fuelling a lot of conflict. Your anti vaxxer stories are one sign of a malevolence in society.

I fear industrial and societal unrest alongside Covid rates because the economy is going to become very difficult. We may even have stagflation and deepening poverty. With that comes desperation and crime. Believe me I know as I've hinted above in my years in a housing office in the 1980s. 

Forget any levelling up too. Sounds good. But it's a confidence trick I think.

Tell me I'm worrying for nothing! Or I'm being overly dramatic.

 

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13 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

There are several things in there I agree with; waiting lists were increasing pre-2019 although you are wrong to say many millions were denied treatment in 2019, the waiting list was only just over half a million in 2019 and the wait times were only a small fraction of what they are now.

That was a result of underfunding as you suggest except it is not a decades old problem but a decade old problem - a decade of Tory austerity which hit the NHS as it hit all public services.  Of course you could always, at any point in time, argue a very reasonable case that the NHS requires more funds than it is receiving (or did receive) but there is a very clear dividing line between the level of funding received by the NHS between the previous Labour administration and the Tory one that followed.

Even if we had a government that is prepared to invest what is needed to resolve these problems (and it is pretty clear that this government isn't) that would still mean only a very gradual improvement could be achieved and would therefore need to be sustained for many years to even return back to roughly where we were 10 years ago, never mind the improvements we need in mental health care, cancer treatment etc, and of course social care which is both another issue in its own right as well as a factor in clogging up the NHS.

So I completely disagree with your statement 'But unless we’re at a point where people can’t get emergency life saving treatment, then the answer isn’t lockdowns and restrictions' because when you say 'can't get emergency life saving treatment' I presume you are only including those in pretty immediate danger of dying as 'emergencies'.

But that definition ignores other categories of patients whose demise is probably still some months away and quite preventable if they receive prompt life saving treatment but for whom a delay is effectively a death sentence - some aggressive forms of cancer are the obvious example but they don't meet your (or the NHS's) definition of an emergency.

So we need to invest properly in health and social care - the need is a given but in reality it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future and even if by some miracle it were to start tomorrow it wouldn't have a significant impact on the rapidly approaching crisis this winter, so IMO the only thing we can do to assist the NHS get through this winter is to take some measures to reduce the load that Covid is placing on our hospitals.

As you will no doubt have seen this morning, many in the NHS are now openly saying the same thing.

I don’t think people in the nhs are saying the same thing you are. They’re saying hospitals might be overwhelmed if we carry on without restrictions - ie; people might not be able to get that emergency life saving treatment as there won’t be any beds left. They aren’t suggesting we lock down because someone can’t get non urgent treatment for an extra few months than they had to wait pre-covid.

For me it’s about equality and fairness. If A&Es are full, it doesn’t matter whether you’re 6, 16, 36, 66 or 96 - if you’re in (for example) a bad car crash and you can’t get emergency treatment you will die. Absolutely right that we try to make sure everyone has equal chance of immediate life saving treatment.

When we start talking about restrictions and lockdowns for non urgent treatment, what you’re suggesting is that people with little (or no) risk of something should have their freedoms taken away for the good of others.

Now of course to an extent that is reasonable if the ‘imposition’ isn’t too much and everyone benefits. The “freedoms” to drive drunk or to smoke indoors in public places are ones that don’t particularly infringe on people’s lives when they’re taken away and which protect literally everyone - passive smoking and drink driving can kill anyone of any age.

Masks in public places - not really much of an ‘imposition’ so why not. But locking down and significant restrictions like banning people from seeing their family, only allowing 6 people indoors at the same time etc etc is a massive amount of ‘freedom’ to take away for something which for the majority of the population isn’t much more than a bad cough.

So we’re back to if hospitals are going to be so overwhelmed that people (all people of any age) can’t get critical life saving emergency treatment, then we need to take steps to try and ensure they can get that. Anything other than emergency critical attention is not something to be dealt with by restrictions and lockdowns, but by having a fit for purpose health service in the first place - which takes money and investment. 

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I see it's open season again in the media on Johnson's handling of the virus. I guess people have finally woken up to the enrushing health crisis.

As per Wilkins Micawber and comic Johnson - I guess he hopes 'something will turn up' - in Johnson's case some other diversion (perhaps another Brexit spat - NI or he can engineer a trade war).

I see much note made of Israel. Yes they largely did and continue to do it right. Vaccinate quickly, kids included, and when they did open up and remove restrictions last summer and it quickly returned backtracked & reimposed (within  weeks) many such restrictions (and still do).

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/israel-covid-lifted-restrictions-too-early-israeli-health-adviser-cases-1103296

In short - there is only one overriding reason for the UK's world beating Covid problems.

Johnson.

Edited by Yellow Fever
Dishonorable mention for his supporters and lackeys as well less history forget
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Mrs R got her invitation to have third booster jab yesterday, exactly six months after second jab. Have booked for first thing Monday at Walk In Centre,, no problems.

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