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9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What will happen to all the graph paper once this is over?

Make masks out of them.ūüĎć

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Interesting report from a couple of HoC Select Committee's and makes many of the same criticisms of this Government's appalling response to the pandemic that some of us were making on here over a year ago in the face of some virulent criticism from the Johnson apologists¬†https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/12/covid-response-one-of-uks-worst-ever-public-health-failures or the front page of pretty much every other paper (except The Express¬† ūüėāūüėā).

Whilst I'm trying not to drop too deeply into 'I told you so mode', there is one particular bugbear of mine which I posted  quite a few times about and attracted a lot of critcism (and/or derision) from certain posters that get a good airing - the failure to learn lessons from other countries:

The report questions why international experts were not part of the UK scientific advisory process and why measures that worked in other countries were not brought in as a precaution, as a response was hammered out.

While Public Health England told the MPs it had formally studied and rejected the South Korean approach, no evidence was provided despite repeated requests.

‚ÄúWe must conclude that no formal evaluation took place, which amounts to an extraordinary and negligent omission given Korea‚Äôs success in containing the pandemic, which was well publicised at the time,‚ÄĚ the report says.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

Whilst I'm trying not to drop too deeply into 'I told you so mode', 

ūüėČ

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This report doesn't pull its punches and does indeed confirm the dither and delay at the the start as we all know.

Whereas I could excuse it as incompetence at the start, I can't excuse the same again dither and delay this time last year and then again after Christmas. The clown cannot change his spots or learn anything from experience. Guilty as charged.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Whilst I'm trying not to drop too deeply into 'I told you so mode', there is one particular bugbear of mine which I posted  quite a few times about and attracted a lot of critcism (and/or derision) from certain posters that get a good airing - the failure to learn lessons from other countries:

Indeed! It's really worth watching the Sky News Hotspots documentary of the Covid pandemic. It's particularly relevant because it collates news reports and interviews made throughout the progress of the crisis. I remember one interview with an Italian Mayor when Italy's health service was at breaking point (being 3 weeks ahead of us)  and the UK had at that time only experienced a handful of deaths. He literally faced the camera and pleaded with the UK government to change it's cavalier attitude to the virus predicting that it was heading for a bigger catastrophe than Italy was experiencing (he had even withdrawn his children from UK universities because of the appalling response of the government). Needless to say the government did nothing, as these reports confirm.

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The sad truth is that this government is by nature and design full of 3rd rate, unthinking populists as required by their Brexity base.

As such its no surprise to anybody that they failed so badly when faced with the pandemic. It was simply a problem well beyond their very limited competence, intelligence and imagination to handle. It simply exposed them for what they are and continue to be. Charlatans. 

At least we know why Johnson choose to 'get away' again. Don't come back. 

Edited by Yellow Fever
Alternatively - If you elect a government of fools don't be be surprised when they act foolishly. Covid doesn't care about 'boosterism' (perhaps Woosterisms) or myths.
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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

 

Yes, I think the stupidity of his comments made it pretty clear that he hadn't read it, especially all the guff about little was known about the virus, blah, blah, blah - if he had read the report at all he would have known that many of the criticisms revolve around both their poor use/decision making based on the  the information they did have and their total failure to learn from other countries and international scientists generally who had more.

Most of what he claims wasn't known at the time, was known and being acted on elsewhere. Its becoming a very well-worn phrase but in the absence of anything better it was 'just another load of Tory lies' and I imagine we're going to hear a lot more of them in the next few days.

Actually that isn't even a prediction - it's just going to be business as usual ramped up a level ūüėā

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30 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

At least we know why Johnson choose to 'get away' again. Don't come back. 

Yep, bizarre really for someone who apparently thinks he models himself on Churchill and Thatcher.

Don’t recall they ever hid like snivelling cowards when the going got tough, but Johnson goes into hiding every time at the first sign of trouble.

Utterly useless as a leader and the worst Prime Minister this country has ever had.

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13 minutes ago, ricardo said:

wow, strong competition! I suspect there will be people in 200 years time googling Boris Johnson and his cronies and being surprised at just how inept he was as well!

Make no mistake though, the problem runs far deeper than Boris. I'd imagine the "solution" we get given is another inept and morally corrupt tory replacing him.

"We're in this together" was the biggest lie of them all. They are lucky Sarah Gilbert and co came along to save the day this year really.

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4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

Whilst I'm trying not to drop too deeply into 'I told you so mode', there is one particular bugbear of mine which I posted  quite a few times about and attracted a lot of critcism (and/or derision) from certain posters that get a good airing - the failure to learn lessons from other countries:

A lot of what you say is rightly derided.  It's your eagerness to latch onto any thing that will allow an attack, no matter how tenuous, that allows for derision. There is more often than not a pretty good argument in you, it just gets a bit wrapped up in paranoia and enthusiasm

That said, if you claimed that we should learn from other countries then you were correct to do so, I dont recall anyone on here saying otherwise but that doesn't make you wrong.   

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21 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

A lot of what you say is rightly derided.  It's your eagerness to latch onto any thing that will allow an attack, no matter how tenuous, that allows for derision. There is more often than not a pretty good argument in you, it just gets a bit wrapped up in paranoia and enthusiasm

That said, if you claimed that we should learn from other countries then you were correct to do so, I dont recall anyone on here saying otherwise but that doesn't make you wrong.   

Quite a few were saying that we should look to other countries like New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Vietnam, South Korea. Some were even saying Sweden. I'm not sure what happened to them though.¬†ūüėÄ

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Indeed another Eton boy (you have wonder whether the UK wouldn't be a much better place if Eton had never existed) and I guess that you having to go back over 200 years to even find a contender rather tells its own story.

Is Johnson worse than Lord North? I would certainly argue that he is, though in truth it is very difficult to do a genuine comparison of the relative performance of two Prime Ministers so far apart in time and in the political scenarios they had to handle.

Of course it is also a somewhat vague & subjective question so no real surprise that different people will arrive at different answers. IMO Johnson fully deserves my billing as 'worst ever' but perhaps if I removed the 'ever' and replaced it with the 'worst in the last 200 years' then we might finally agree about something?

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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

A lot of what you say is rightly derided.  It's your eagerness to latch onto any thing that will allow an attack, no matter how tenuous, that allows for derision. There is more often than not a pretty good argument in you, it just gets a bit wrapped up in paranoia and enthusiasm

That said, if you claimed that we should learn from other countries then you were correct to do so, I dont recall anyone on here saying otherwise but that doesn't make you wrong.   

Really?? You don't think many thousands of people dying unnecessarily are worth an 'attack' on the cause?

What is equally bizzarre, is that even now you still appear to be characterising as ‚Äėtenuous‚Äô what has in many cases now been confirmed by 2 HoC Select Committees in an unusually forthright way.

As for learning from other countries if you don't recall my posts being derided, or in your case 'dismissed' might perhaps be more accurate, then you have an appalling memory.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Really?? You don't think many thousands of people dying unnecessarily are worth an 'attack' on the cause?

What is equally bizzarre, is that even now you still appear to be characterising as ‚Äėtenuous‚Äô what has in many cases now been confirmed by 2 HoC Select Committees in an unusually forthright way.

As for learning from other countries if you don't recall my posts being derided, or in your case 'dismissed' might perhaps be more accurate, then you have an appalling memory.

Read what is said.  Then read it again. 

What you thought you read and what you did in fact read are often not the same.

The government has been rightly criticised on these pages since the start, even by people you  (rightly or wrongly) would regard as natural supporters.    Yes, I do think attacks are warranted. I wouldn't say otherwise and in these pages I have been very critical as have many others.  But there comes a point where there is only so much 'why can't we be China/New Zealand/Vanuatu' nonsense that one can take.

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2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Is Johnson worse than Lord North? I would certainly argue that he is, though in truth it is very difficult to do a genuine comparison of the relative performance of two Prime Ministers so far apart in time and in the political scenarios they had to handle.

@ricardo - something that didn't occur to me in my original reply to you is there is, of course, one great similarity between North and Johnson..........it wasn't so much North's original incompetence in dealing with the North American colonies that 'cost us America' but the fact that he managed to elevate it to going to war with them, the Spanish, the French, and the Dutch.

Does that sound at all familiar?¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬† Maybe the scenarios weren't quite as different as I originally suggested ūüėÄ

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National

38,520  - 181

rate of increase of 13.5% over 7 days

 

Local

Norwich infection rate     305.3  up 1.4% (7days)

16 patients in the N&N  5th Oct ( up 1 on previous report))

 

Vax ( vax percentages have been recalibrated to include 12-16 yr olds)

1st Dose      29,172             85.6% done                            Norwich numbers   74.6% 

2nd Dose     23,632             78.6% done                                                               68%

In Hospital

11-10-2021                                            7,003
10-10-2021 6,861
09-10-2021 6,704
08-10-2021 6,758
07-10-2021 6,785
06-10-2021 6,844
05-10-2021 6,863
04-10-2021 6,789

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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Read what is said.  Then read it again. 

What you thought you read and what you did in fact read are often not the same.

The government has been rightly criticised on these pages since the start, even by people you  (rightly or wrongly) would regard as natural supporters.    Yes, I do think attacks are warranted. I wouldn't say otherwise and in these pages I have been very critical as have many others.  But there comes a point where there is only so much 'why can't we be China/New Zealand/Vanuatu' nonsense that one can take.

Any reason you call it nonsense?

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28 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Any reason you call it nonsense?

The NZ comparison is fairly ludicrous. It's an island nation thousands of miles from anyone else with only one major entry point and with far less exposure to international routes than, say, the UK.

It has different seasons to us so would have been at an entirely different part of the infection cycle to Europe when this first hit. 

Once in the population it would spread only with difficulty as population density is far less. Granted, Auckland is a fair sized city but a 1/4 acre plot doesn't really compare with UK inner cities. It has no major transit system to compare with the London tube or our national railways.

That's why NZ could lock down after the UK and open up earlier.  Much the same reasoning can probably be applied to why Sweden could refuse to lock down at all but still have below average infection returns.

As to China, who really knows what happened...  

I just chucked in Vanuatu because I liked the name

It's not so much fair criticism I object to, but the falling over oneself yo criticise when the evidence used to support the case is so ropey.  The UK got many things wrong and the ground for criticism is fertile so why resort to weak or lazy arguments?

 

 

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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Hospital figures back up again‚Ķ. f*ck you Boris and letting flights from India in. We were doing so well then that Delta ‚Äúseeded‚ÄĚ and we are now at 35,000 - 40,000 plus every night now!!.

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

The NZ comparison is fairly ludicrous. It's an island nation thousands of miles from anyone else with only one major entry point and with far less exposure to international routes than, say, the UK.

It has different seasons to us so would have been at an entirely different part of the infection cycle to Europe when this first hit. 

Once in the population it would spread only with difficulty as population density is far less. Granted, Auckland is a fair sized city but a 1/4 acre plot doesn't really compare with UK inner cities. It has no major transit system to compare with the London tube or our national railways.

That's why NZ could lock down after the UK and open up earlier.  Much the same reasoning can probably be applied to why Sweden could refuse to lock down at all but still have below average infection returns.

As to China, who really knows what happened...  

I just chucked in Vanuatu because I liked the name

It's not so much fair criticism I object to, but the falling over oneself yo criticise when the evidence used to support the case is so ropey.  The UK got many things wrong and the ground for criticism is fertile so why resort to weak or lazy arguments?

 

 

 

Can one assume you consider Japan and South Korea to be more apt comparisons?

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14 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Can one assume you consider Japan and South Korea to be more apt comparisons?

Yes.  But the lessons to be learnt are very different. South Korea didn't go for lockdown and instead went all out for contact tracing.  Japan basically did nothing. Very different approaches to welding people into their homes.

There is something very odd about East and South East Asian returns generally , possibly hinting at a genetic, diet, past exposure, cultural related underpinning to a lot of the relative success but I doubt it'll ever really be known. 

For what it is worth my hindsight tuppence is that the biggest failure was to contain the very earliest cases and it was this failure that led to everything  that then happened up until delta came along.

..that and the assumptions people on power seem to have made about care home settings.  Possibly suggesting that decision makers thought that hospitals and care home functioned in similar fashions and didn't really bother to seek the true 'view from the ground' .

If I were to say which nation we should, epidemiologically speaking, have copied from its S Korea, but the level of surveillance required would pose very important ethical considerations.

 

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

The NZ comparison is fairly ludicrous. It's an island nation thousands of miles from anyone else with only one major entry point and with far less exposure to international routes than, say, the UK.

It has different seasons to us so would have been at an entirely different part of the infection cycle to Europe when this first hit. 

Once in the population it would spread only with difficulty as population density is far less. Granted, Auckland is a fair sized city but a 1/4 acre plot doesn't really compare with UK inner cities. It has no major transit system to compare with the London tube or our national railways.

That's why NZ could lock down after the UK and open up earlier.  Much the same reasoning can probably be applied to why Sweden could refuse to lock down at all but still have below average infection returns.

As to China, who really knows what happened...  

I just chucked in Vanuatu because I liked the name

It's not so much fair criticism I object to, but the falling over oneself yo criticise when the evidence used to support the case is so ropey.  The UK got many things wrong and the ground for criticism is fertile so why resort to weak or lazy arguments?

 

 

 

Some of your comparisons seem equally wrong to me.

The UK is also a set of Islands.

Auckland is bigger than any UK city other than London. 1.5 miilion.

Over 80 % of the population lives in urban areas. In fact about 60% lives in just seven areas.

Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch are all major entry points internationally.

People in NZ use public transport at a higher level than the UK. Wellington, where I used to live, has a large overland train system, much like the DLR, to get commuters from the suburbs to the City.

New housing sections in NZ are no longer 1/4 acre pavlova paradises as a large portion of the population are moving toward the metropolitan areas.

There was ample opportunity for the virus to spread just as easily in NZ as the UK. The metropolitan areas are social areas, for instance more Kiwis eat out than UK residents. More people play sport. And January is one of big holiday months. 

So while there are differences, your contempt for others opinion is not justified to the extent you extol.

Plain fact is, they had someone in charge who made decisions and did not base their decision on an assumption like our PM that the public would not obey any measures, where in fact they did.

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