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1 hour ago, Bagster said:

Ok stop with the under 18 nonsense , I never said under 18, my kids are 20 25 and 27. I still refer to them as kids.

Two , if you look at the covipass you will clearly see that if you can't prove  immunity ie you have not been vaccinated then foreign travel, sporting events etc will not be available to you.That is not much different to no jab no pay, government does not have to issue mandatory vaccinations for them to be basically be mandated by other means.

Third , the death rates can be found on the WHO 

0.23% overall

0.05% if your under 70

Incidentally , 2018 flu was .20 and we had 50 k excess deaths.

Fourthly PHE stated that from the 8th of October flu and covid will be counted as one.

But the overall point of my argument is 

THIS 70 and under death rate 0.05!!!!!!!

We are destroying our economy for this.

NOW YOU PROVE THOSE FIGURES WRONG

AND THEN TELL US WHY ARE WE DOING THIS.

 

Although I’m with you in general Bags, you need to consider the impact on the hospitals, we could see more death without some control measures.

I do agree we need to be very careful not to ruin our economy which is going to be tested come our exit from the EU.

I think we’re in the final throws of this virus, three months time we’ll have a vaccination plan in place and spring will see some form of normality return.

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Agreed. My problem with this article (and many similar, and the opinions that keep getting put forward by many) is that it tells us more people will die over a long period of time, it tells us how many will die, it tells us how many are dying in other countries, it tells us all about deaths and then at the very bottom it says “oh and by the way one hospital in a part of the country that’s hit really bad is getting a bit busy, but isn’t yet overwhelmed and we aren’t going to tell you whether it’s any more busy than any previous year”.

This isn’t just a case of policy / discussing lockdown vs no lockdown. It’s also about messaging to the public. Even many “sensible” (ie non conspiracy theory folk) will look at the comments on more deaths over a longer period, then look at average age of death from covid being 82, current average life expectancy being 81, and query why lockdown is needed - people dying at an age they are, statistically on average, expected to die isnt on its own going to convince people to get behind measures which increase their own risk of health problems, cause economic devastation and job losses etc.

If there is compelling evidence that hospitals will be overwhelmed, that needs to be front and foremost. That does affect everyone. The messaging needs to get back to protect the nhs. My guess is that at the moment it isn’t bad enough for that messaging to be effective and so has fallen off the radar a bit.

I haven’t looked at the article but I can see from all your comments the rough angle of what it is saying.

If there are as many deaths this time around something has gone seriously wrong as although there are no absolute cures yet as I eluded to the other day and you kindly put up an nhs response to a different article we have learnt to find ways to keep the toll of deaths down. As well as this hospitals seem to have learnt ‘ how to keep open for business ‘ with icu wards divided and Covid secure areas, but mainly an almost instant test which means you can be isolated from people until they now you are Covid free. They are not even expecting monograms to be effected.
This has come at the expense this time of all non essential Procedures, if nothing else I hope everyone on here can agree these are not as serious as Covid, cancer, heart and at least equal to flu. To show how it has evolved if and when opened I understand the Nightingales will not be taking in patients when they are first admitted but will be more a recovery area, for those improving and at the end of their hospital journey.
The problem therefore to me therefore seems to be The West and the leadership many have been given. Due to our freedoms we ignored the rules and the numbers are clearly out of control. We had messages telling us to pack out the pubs, that was interpreted by the younger element it’s ok now it won’t kill us, wether your argument is for or against masks if you didn’t wear one where you should, you weren’t challenged and so the list goes on. To prove the case in reverse, care homes took drastic action and that seems to be working, hospitals also seem to have put measures in place that worked regards spread. In my opinion the likes of Trump and some of these articles we have seen as well have simply helped it get out of control.
Consequently again the lessons did not get learnt and we are making the same mistakes again and this time we won’t be halting it with a lockdown, or will we ? I don’t say that because I think there should or shouldn’t be I say it because in my opinion our leader has no idea what to do next to keep himself in power. 
In conclusion I am far more likely to catch it this time round, but far less likely to die ( I think ), so I am bloody glad I didn’t catch it in March.

 

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25 minutes ago, Indy said:

Although I’m with you in general Bags, you need to consider the impact on the hospitals, we could see more death without some control measures.

I do agree we need to be very careful not to ruin our economy which is going to be tested come our exit from the EU.

I think we’re in the final throws of this virus, three months time we’ll have a vaccination plan in place and spring will see some form of normality return.

But therein lies the problem the likes of Bagster are advocating you don’t take the vaccine. Only guesswork but I think we will be lucky and the vast majority will ignore them, especially if their freedom of movement is effected.

As you may be aware I do a lot of work on the vaccine. Although I would hope the more vulnerable will be protected by Spring I think it will be the summer before things return to anything like they were, but that is purely guesswork as the further down the age groups we go the more resistance there will be, however when push comes to shove a huge % will have the vaccine but that is simply a guess.

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2 hours ago, Aggy said:

Agreed. My problem with this article (and many similar, and the opinions that keep getting put forward by many) is that it tells us more people will die over a long period of time, it tells us how many will die, it tells us how many are dying in other countries, it tells us all about deaths and then at the very bottom it says “oh and by the way one hospital in a part of the country that’s hit really bad is getting a bit busy, but isn’t yet overwhelmed and we aren’t going to tell you whether it’s any more busy than any previous year”.

This isn’t just a case of policy / discussing lockdown vs no lockdown. It’s also about messaging to the public. Even many “sensible” (ie non conspiracy theory folk) will look at the comments on more deaths over a longer period, then look at average age of death from covid being 82, current average life expectancy being 81, and query why lockdown is needed - people dying at an age they are, statistically on average, expected to die isnt on its own going to convince people to get behind measures which increase their own risk of health problems, cause economic devastation and job losses etc.

If there is compelling evidence that hospitals will be overwhelmed, that needs to be front and foremost. That does affect everyone. The messaging needs to get back to protect the nhs. My guess is that at the moment it isn’t bad enough for that messaging to be effective and so has fallen off the radar a bit.

Blimey! I think we agree almost entirely. Happy days!

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11 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I keep telling myself not to get drawn into pointless discussions with those who can't see the wood for the trees.

Stick to the basic confirmed facts, ignore wishful or fanciful thinking and apply not so common sense. Sage, independent Sage all really agree on rhe way forward.

I have a huge belief in the ingenuity and competence of our global scientific community - they can and will defeat the virus. 

What I fear is the incompetence or political dallying of our politicians (and self publicists on social media) who seem peculiarly ill equipped by character & intellect to combat such a national challenge.

Spot on.

To much listening to those that shout loudest and keeping them happy to keep power rather than taking difficult decisions at the right time. I agree that there are occasions where the scientists can be proved wrong, however taking in context they have been far more right than wrong.

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2 hours ago, Aggy said:

Agreed. My problem with this article (and many similar, and the opinions that keep getting put forward by many) is that it tells us more people will die over a long period of time, it tells us how many will die, it tells us how many are dying in other countries, it tells us all about deaths and then at the very bottom it says “oh and by the way one hospital in a part of the country that’s hit really bad is getting a bit busy, but isn’t yet overwhelmed and we aren’t going to tell you whether it’s any more busy than any previous year”.

This isn’t just a case of policy / discussing lockdown vs no lockdown. It’s also about messaging to the public. Even many “sensible” (ie non conspiracy theory folk) will look at the comments on more deaths over a longer period, then look at average age of death from covid being 82, current average life expectancy being 81, and query why lockdown is needed - people dying at an age they are, statistically on average, expected to die isnt on its own going to convince people to get behind measures which increase their own risk of health problems, cause economic devastation and job losses etc.

If there is compelling evidence that hospitals will be overwhelmed, that needs to be front and foremost. That does affect everyone. The messaging needs to get back to protect the nhs. My guess is that at the moment it isn’t bad enough for that messaging to be effective and so has fallen off the radar a bit.

By the way agreed. 
Are we all beginning to comprise and take the middle ground lol

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Also agree with the hospital situation. Here in Leeds & Bradford Covid numbers are greater (at LGI and BRI) than last Spring but neither have stated they are overwhelmed. However they are very nervous (Both cities may be going into Tier 3 Friday).

I was reading the following article and I've shared it because I've read little about this angle (particular nutrients) but have read about vitamin D. As ever, I retain an open (or sceptical) view (naturopathy source).

https://www.primarydoctor.org/covid-19-is-a-lack-of-nutrients

She also has articles on masks and how they can be unhelpful / ill-advised (must be carefully looked after, washed every day). The link is in the article if interested.

 

Edited by sonyc
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2 hours ago, Bagster said:

How on earth are we protecting the NHS by devastating the economy?

12 billion on track and trace...how many hospitals could we build with that?

At no point were the hospitals overwhelmed in the first wave, nightingales were not really used at all.

The virus first showed up in sewage in November 2019, no social distancing, no extra washing of hands, no masks ect for months but apparently now the 2 Nd wave is going to be worse than the first.

Ok I look forward to seeing your proof

 

It is a fallacy to see protecting the NHS and protecting the economy as two separate things. If the NHS collapses and the virus runs rampant then the effects on the economy will be worse than they are now. Then you really would be talking about a long term lockdown.

Totally agree that 12 billion wasted on a useless track and trace is a scandal and I hope those responsible will be made accountble.

I think you need to talk to doctors and nurses if you don't think hospitals were pushed to the very limit. My partner is a front-line nurse so I at least have first hand knowledge on that issue. A number of hospitals declared emergencies as they had no more beds available. And the reason why Nightingale hospitals were hardly used is because there were not the trained staff available to run them. There was no gain in depleting hospital ward staff to send them to the Nightingales.

I don't understand what you are claiming is the significance of your point about the virus being detected in sewage in November 2019. Of course it starts with a few cases. The point is that infections have grown exponentially (close to a million in the UK). That's why it is worse now.

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4 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Sweden is being lauded by libertarians in what is often a fraudulent argument about freedom and by those who fear economic damage, which again is sometimes self-serving, albeit sometimes not. If it wasn't so serious it would be amusing to se a country usually derided by many of these people as socialism gone mad now being held up as the example to follow.

Just to add, I think there are four things one can say with certainty.

That no two pandemics are the same, so you cannot just rely on the playbook that worked, to a greater or lesser extent, last time. That no two countries are so alike that what works in one will work in another. That no definitive judgment on what was right and wrong can be made until the threat has been at least mainly eliminated. That no matter whatever policy is adopted, even if flawed, it will be no good unless applied competently. And the US and the UK are examples of where there has been lethal incompetence.

Edited by PurpleCanary
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This is an interview by a  new Zealand GP with a German Doctor.

It's actually mind-blowing, if you don't watch then as far as I'm concerned you'll get what you deserve

Crimes against humanity have already started in Germany.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

As well as this hospitals seem to have learnt ‘ how to keep open for business ‘ with icu wards divided and Covid secure areas, but mainly an almost instant test which means you can be isolated from people until they now you are Covid free. They are not even expecting monograms to be effected.
This has come at the expense this time of all non essential Procedures, if nothing else I hope everyone on here can agree these are not as serious as Covid, cancer, heart and at least equal to flu. To show how it has evolved if and when opened I understand the Nightingales will not be taking in patients when they are first admitted but will be more a recovery area, for those improving and at the end of their hospital journey.
 

 

All sensible and largely agreed.

Another thing to consider, I think, is what we class as overwhelmed. Saying hospitals are 85 per cent or 97 per cent or 100 per cent full or whatever is only part of the story.  I posted links a while back so won’t repeat in full, but NW icus were no more overwhelmed in October 2020 than October 2019. Overall capacity in hospitals 2014-2016 was over the 85 per cent target every single quarter (likely much higher in winter months). 2013 - a third of hospitals at some point had to turn patients away because they were too full. 

On routine ops, the other point is that we have the longest waiting times ever already. You could be waiting 4-6 months for an operation and then still have it rearranged. We are pretty much always too overwhelmed to treat people quickly enough. You very rarely get diagnosed on Monday and have your op the following Wednesday - we’re too full to do that.

So we need to make sure we’re comparing figures to what they usually are. If we’re just as overwhelmed as every other year, then it doesn’t really justify lockdowns. If we’re going to be seriously overwhelmed, then perhaps it does. 

Your comments on the nightingales also sensible. I haven’t seen anything actually saying that will be the case, but did say myself some while ago that I’m hopeful we’ll be able (and it would be sensible) to use them less like Icus and more like “normal” wards to aid with capacity. This would also mean we’d need fewer staff to man them - you need more staff to be constantly putting out fires in icu than you do to monitor stable patients who you just don’t want to get any worse or who are already well on the road to recovery.

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

It is a fallacy to see protecting the NHS and protecting the economy as two separate things. If the NHS collapses and the virus runs rampant then the effects on the economy will be worse than they are now. Then you really would be talking about a long term lockdown.

Totally agree that 12 billion wasted on a useless track and trace is a scandal and I hope those responsible will be made accountble.

"It is a fallacy to see protecting the NHS and protecting the economy as two separate things" - 100% correct, common sense tells you that, the economists are telling us that. They are two intertwined problems, and in the UK the major thing holding the the economic recovery back is not the current restrictions, though they clearly don't help, but the devasting impact on consumer confidence caused by the government's complete bungling of virtually all aspects of the crisis allied to its confusing, and often contradictory, messaging.

As for £12billion on a dysfunctional track and trace - we definitely need a good track and trace system and we could have had one at a fraction of that cost but for the government's incompetence and their insistence on following their ideological obsessions rather use the professional expertise already in place.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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4 hours ago, Bagster said:

 

The virus first showed up in sewage in November 2019, no social distancing, no extra washing of hands, no masks ect for months but apparently now the 2 Nd wave is going to be worse than the first.

 

Is that in the UK? Be interested to see the article.

There was always a suggestion that London was hit earlier than imagined and that the lockdown came after the peak in a lot of its parts (hence why we are seeing the worst of it in the North now despite London not exactly being renowed as a healthy environment with healthy inhabitants).

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Q

As for £12billion on a dysfunctional track and trace - we definitely need a good track and trace system and we could have had one at a fraction of that cost but for the governverment's incompetence and their insistence on following their ideological obsessions rather use the professional expertise already in place.

I am on here as a massive advocate of contact tracing.  I thought reliance on the pre-existing system to be the number one ir two cause of our problems.

I am a lot more sceptical now though. The numbers are too big,  its too widely spread and we are too mobile for me to think this makes a big contribution to suppression anymore.  

A guy walks across the south bank to get on a tube at Waterloo, goes to kings Cross and gets the inter city to Newcastle where he walks to the office via Gregg's.   We are not tracking all of that.  Even North Korean levels of surveillance couldn't track that. Maybe we could get a quite a few but the tide is inevitable without a vaccine.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Aggy said:

All sensible and largely agreed.

Another thing to consider, I think, is what we class as overwhelmed. Saying hospitals are 85 per cent or 97 per cent or 100 per cent full or whatever is only part of the story.  I posted links a while back so won’t repeat in full, but NW icus were no more overwhelmed in October 2020 than October 2019. Overall capacity in hospitals 2014-2016 was over the 85 per cent target every single quarter (likely much higher in winter months). 2013 - a third of hospitals at some point had to turn patients away because they were too full. 

On routine ops, the other point is that we have the longest waiting times ever already. You could be waiting 4-6 months for an operation and then still have it rearranged. We are pretty much always too overwhelmed to treat people quickly enough. You very rarely get diagnosed on Monday and have your op the following Wednesday - we’re too full to do that.

So we need to make sure we’re comparing figures to what they usually are. If we’re just as overwhelmed as every other year, then it doesn’t really justify lockdowns. If we’re going to be seriously overwhelmed, then perhaps it does. 

Your comments on the nightingales also sensible. I haven’t seen anything actually saying that will be the case, but did say myself some while ago that I’m hopeful we’ll be able (and it would be sensible) to use them less like Icus and more like “normal” wards to aid with capacity. This would also mean we’d need fewer staff to man them - you need more staff to be constantly putting out fires in icu than you do to monitor stable patients who you just don’t want to get any worse or who are already well on the road to recovery.

Hi Aggy

You are giving out to many of those little hearts you will be running out soon lol ( don’t stop though the discussions are good and I think we are all understanding more of the different views ).

Yes I didn’t know that about the Nightingales. Did you know also they are already staffed ? Although I think it is really great, this is exactly the sort of place the government are letting us down, by not explaining properly what’s happened. Just on here think how many disagreements this would have stopped, as our hospitals ( as we know them ) would be overrun or empty or not looking after cancer patients. This simple bit of information coupled with how the mainstream hospitals have adapted surely would have given people much more confidence there was a plan. Why do we have to find ou from small print hidden away.

Here is the relevant paragraph for NHS Nightingale North West

The hospital has up to 750 beds for patients. It will provide care for those who no longer need to be in a critical care environment. It will also link closely to community health and social care services, as well as the hospitals across the North West region.

And the link for the actual job description that also tells us they are already staffed if they needed.

https://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/en/Nightingale/Nightingale/NHS-Nightingale-Hospital--North-West

Like I say I was shocked as well as I thought the Nightingales were as discussed, but clearly they are also for normal procedures as well as Covid.

 

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Is that in the UK? Be interested to see the article.

There was always a suggestion that London was hit earlier than imagined and that the lockdown came after the peak in a lot of its parts (hence why we are seeing the worst of it in the North now despite London not exactly being renowed as a healthy environment with healthy inhabitants).

You won’t see a link for the first bit I guess !

Moving on though I had Radio 5 on on the way home, and interestingly ( and allegedly ) the government are not denying the story regards the report on the 2nd wave. 

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13 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Hi Aggy

You are giving out to many of those little hearts you will be running out soon lol ( don’t stop though the discussions are good and I think we are all understanding more of the different views ).

Yes I didn’t know that about the Nightingales. Did you know also they are already staffed ? Although I think it is really great, this is exactly the sort of place the government are letting us down, by not explaining properly what’s happened. Just on here think how many disagreements this would have stopped, as our hospitals ( as we know them ) would be overrun or empty or not looking after cancer patients. This simple bit of information coupled with how the mainstream hospitals have adapted surely would have given people much more confidence there was a plan. Why do we have to find ou from small print hidden away.

Here is the relevant paragraph for NHS Nightingale North West

The hospital has up to 750 beds for patients. It will provide care for those who no longer need to be in a critical care environment. It will also link closely to community health and social care services, as well as the hospitals across the North West region.

And the link for the actual job description that also tells us they are already staffed if they needed.

https://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/en/Nightingale/Nightingale/NHS-Nightingale-Hospital--North-West

Like I say I was shocked as well as I thought the Nightingales were as discussed, but clearly they are also for normal procedures as well as Covid.

 

Comment today - Sounds a bit like Norwich Community Hospital (aka the old West Norwich) 

The Nightingale hospital in Manchester will start receiving patients who do not have Covid-19 from today, the NHS has confirmed.

Nightingale hospitals in northern England were put on standby earlier this month as a result of a surge in coronavirus cases.

A spokesperson for the NHS in the north-west said: “The NHS Nightingale hospital north-west will accept patients from today to provide care for those who do not have Covid-19, but do need further support before they are able to go home, such as therapy and social care assessments.”

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18 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Hi Aggy

You are giving out to many of those little hearts you will be running out soon lol ( don’t stop though the discussions are good and I think we are all understanding more of the different views ).

Yes I didn’t know that about the Nightingales. Did you know also they are already staffed ? Although I think it is really great, this is exactly the sort of place the government are letting us down, by not explaining properly what’s happened. Just on here think how many disagreements this would have stopped, as our hospitals ( as we know them ) would be overrun or empty or not looking after cancer patients. This simple bit of information coupled with how the mainstream hospitals have adapted surely would have given people much more confidence there was a plan. Why do we have to find ou from small print hidden away.

Here is the relevant paragraph for NHS Nightingale North West

The hospital has up to 750 beds for patients. It will provide care for those who no longer need to be in a critical care environment. It will also link closely to community health and social care services, as well as the hospitals across the North West region.

And the link for the actual job description that also tells us they are already staffed if they needed.

https://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/en/Nightingale/Nightingale/NHS-Nightingale-Hospital--North-West

Like I say I was shocked as well as I thought the Nightingales were as discussed, but clearly they are also for normal procedures as well as Covid.

 

I usually waste my ‘little heart allowance’ with the confused face whenever I look on here and the brexit thread! 

Thanks for your link there and YF’s also - all sounds like promising steps to help avoid any overwhelming of the hospitals. 

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Is that in the UK? Be interested to see the article.

There was always a suggestion that London was hit earlier than imagined and that the lockdown came after the peak in a lot of its parts (hence why we are seeing the worst of it in the North now despite London not exactly being renowed as a healthy environment with healthy inhabitants).

Not sure I go with all of that - there was even a 'positive' probably false for sewage in Spain in March 2019! You you need quite an outbreak to detect it in diluted sewage so the odd case I would think is undetectable via this method - in the noise!

There is some evidence for an odd case around December (France comes to mind) but generally no real cases until it took off in Italy in Europe (when doctors put 2 + 2 =4). No doubt a few earlier cases that went unnoticed in December elsewhere. Happy to correct that if we can show a proper outbreak much earlier with hindsight.. 

You can make the same arguments for Wuhan - I think the earliest patient never visited that market place and it's likely it never started there (somewhere in SE Asia - Say September - November) but Wuhan is certainly where modern medicine first identified it.  They are still trying to identify where CV19 truly came from - a bat yes but its a bit fuzzy after that.

I don't think there is much factual evidence that London was past any peak before the lockdown took effect - but certainly the virus was less prevalent in the north and in other places at that time than London.

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11 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Comment today - Sounds a bit like Norwich Community Hospital (aka the old West Norwich) 

The Nightingale hospital in Manchester will start receiving patients who do not have Covid-19 from today, the NHS has confirmed.

Nightingale hospitals in northern England were put on standby earlier this month as a result of a surge in coronavirus cases.

A spokesperson for the NHS in the north-west said: “The NHS Nightingale hospital north-west will accept patients from today to provide care for those who do not have Covid-19, but do need further support before they are able to go home, such as therapy and social care assessments.”

That’s good and bad news ( if you get my gist )

But why on earth did the government not say the Nightingales are for this and this is why we think we can cope as well as not ignore other illnesses. We could have seen they had a plan and surely we would have looked at them and literally said ‘ at least they have a plan this time. They are digging holes for themselves that never needed to be dug. Had I not seen that on their application I would now be saying, ‘ can’t cope ‘

Bazaar

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13 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I usually waste my ‘little heart allowance’ with the confused face whenever I look on here and the brexit thread! 

Thanks for your link there and YF’s also - all sounds like promising steps to help avoid any overwhelming of the hospitals. 

Cheers Aggy -  Apologies if I get a little curt sometimes - Watched Newsnight or was it 'the papers' last night and Isabel Oakshott was on the 82 year old ploy as usual without any context and basically saying what's all the fuss about. She's exactly the sort of non-expert interviewee for some that causes all the scientific issues. 

 

10 minutes ago, Well b back said:

That’s good and bad news ( if you get my gist )

But why on earth did the government not say the Nightingales are for this and this is why we think we can cope as well as not ignore other illnesses. We could have seen they had a plan and surely we would have looked at them and literally said ‘ at least they have a plan this time. They are digging holes for themselves that never needed to be dug. Had I not seen that on their application I would now be saying, ‘ can’t cope ‘

Bazaar

I think WBB beware of politicians (or their appointees) with forked tongues - even Bagster might agree with that 🙂

My guess is that the Nightingales are not really staffed for ICU but ordinary recuperating!

 

Edited by Yellow Fever
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Just now, Yellow Fever said:

Cheers Aggy -  Apologies if I get a little curt sometimes - Watched Newsnight or was it 'the papers' last night and Isabel Oakshott was on the 82 year old ploy as usual without any context and basically saying what's all the fuss about. She's exactly the sort of non-expert interviewee for some that causes all the scientific issues. 

 

I think WBB beware of politicians (or their appointees) with forked tongues - even Bagster might agree with that 🙂

 

Yeah but he'd probably be thinking of them having literal forked tongues in the David Icke sense....😂

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280k  tests

24701 - 310         7days ago 26668       14 days ago  19724

The first reduction in positives on the 7 day count

 

Inpatients  9520    up 321 since yesterday

 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Yesterdays European. 

Italy   21994 - 221      

France 33417 - 523

Spain           18418 - 267

Germany  13161 - 81

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So France and Germany looking at new "lockdowns" although these are not full on lockdowns like back in March/April.

 

It seems really out of control in France, worst in Europe at the moment.  One comment quoted is that they've found a 9pm curfew hasn't made much difference because "people just meet at 6pm instead" - well, duh !

 

Germany seems to be looking at measures that go a bit further than our Tier 3 - bars/restaurants will be shut except for takeaways, but otherwise pretty similar.

 

From my experience here in Nottingham, the tier 2 restrictions have definitely had an impact, to a large degree I think it's just people taking it seriously now - back in September if you went into the City centre, it was almost like pre-Covid, whereas the last week or so, it's been much quieter with people masked up and keeping proper distances.  Cases had dropped dramatically, I think the decision to put Notts into tier 3 was largely because infections were spreading beyond the student population and hospital admissions going up.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I usually waste my ‘little heart allowance’ with the confused face whenever I look on here and the brexit thread! 

Thanks for your link there and YF’s also - all sounds like promising steps to help avoid any overwhelming of the hospitals. 

 

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Hi Aggy

You are giving out to many of those little hearts you will be running out soon lol ( don’t stop though the discussions are good and I think we are all understanding more of the different views ).

Yes I didn’t know that about the Nightingales. Did you know also they are already staffed ? Although I think it is really great, this is exactly the sort of place the government are letting us down, by not explaining properly what’s happened. Just on here think how many disagreements this would have stopped, as our hospitals ( as we know them ) would be overrun or empty or not looking after cancer patients. This simple bit of information coupled with how the mainstream hospitals have adapted surely would have given people much more confidence there was a plan. Why do we have to find ou from small print hidden away.

Here is the relevant paragraph for NHS Nightingale North West

The hospital has up to 750 beds for patients. It will provide care for those who no longer need to be in a critical care environment. It will also link closely to community health and social care services, as well as the hospitals across the North West region.

And the link for the actual job description that also tells us they are already staffed if they needed.

https://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/en/Nightingale/Nightingale/NHS-Nightingale-Hospital--North-West

Like I say I was shocked as well as I thought the Nightingales were as discussed, but clearly they are also for normal procedures as well as Covid.

 

I wouldn’t put too much reliance on that WBB, NHS professional recruitment for tier two contact tracers closed a long time ago, but we are desperately short now and buying in staff at huge cost from Serco and Sitel. 

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18 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

So France and Germany looking at new "lockdowns" although these are not full on lockdowns like back in March/April.

 

It seems really out of control in France, worst in Europe at the moment.  One comment quoted is that they've found a 9pm curfew hasn't made much difference because "people just meet at 6pm instead" - well, duh !

 

Germany seems to be looking at measures that go a bit further than our Tier 3 - bars/restaurants will be shut except for takeaways, but otherwise pretty similar.

 

From my experience here in Nottingham, the tier 2 restrictions have definitely had an impact, to a large degree I think it's just people taking it seriously now - back in September if you went into the City centre, it was almost like pre-Covid, whereas the last week or so, it's been much quieter with people masked up and keeping proper distances.  Cases had dropped dramatically, I think the decision to put Notts into tier 3 was largely because infections were spreading beyond the student population and hospital admissions going up.

 

 

France is looking very very serious, we are a few weeks behind them, I do hope those that wanted proof before acting now feel sufficiently well informed.......too late of course!

Edited by Van wink
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Positives by specimen date

The fine City is fairly well down the list.

North Norfolk is the place to be.

 

67kfyMy.jpeg

 

 

Edited by ricardo

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