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On 13/06/2020 at 14:22, PurpleCanary said:

I was the one who was saying populism was essentially right-wing, but I was talking in terms of the western world, where I would say that is a fair generalisation. Almost all western populists portray themselves as being outsiders (even though, as you say many are not) whose main 'policy' is to reduce the role of the state. In western politics that is pretty much exclusively a right-wing aim.

I'm not too sure that applies to countries outside of the US

the trick here is to play on fears of immigration and anything different so as to use those people as a distraction

as ultimately all taxation is paid by the capitalists, so any expenditure that can be cut, ultimately benefits them

a totally  short sighted attitude as the shortage of staff and PPE demonstrated - Scandinavian countries have shown how higher state spending improves the lives of all.... whereas the righties are told that increased spending only goes to the feckless, undeserving (non whites)

hence the US having a 3rd world health system and a 'banana republic' type police force to keep 'malcontents' under the cosh (literally)

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

those who lost their lives in the past 24 hours has been listed as 31

taking into account that it is the weekend (lower collated numbers) it does suggest that the mad stampede to be out doors a fortnight ago has not produced the increase in numbers suggested (by me for obe0

 

Can you explain how deaths announced today has any relevance to what happened two weeks ago. You clearly have a “unique” understanding of all this, please share it with us all.

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3 hours ago, Van wink said:

Can you explain how deaths announced today has any relevance to what happened two weeks ago. You clearly have a “unique” understanding of all this, please share it with us all.

A more pertinent criterion is that new cases have not shown any sign of a spike after the two week period so hopefully the idiots ignoring social distancing rules have got away with it. It also suggests that relaxing the 2m separation to 1m is OK.

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1 minute ago, Crafty Canary said:

A more pertinent criterion is that new cases have not shown any sign of a spike after the two week period 

There’s a bit more validity to that one, I’m still interested in Bills theory that people contract the virus, die and the death is registered all in two weeks. 

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If the distance is reduced then I don't see the point of any guideline on distance. Why not just insist people wear masks and gloves? A metre will become 2 feet and then virtually nothing.

You stand outside a supermarket at 2 metres and get inside and its a free for all.

A manager at Primark in Truro has told us that going by the square footage of the building, they could allow 350 people in and social distance.

How stupid is that? For one thing, what if there are 300 women and 50 men?

Some of the advice being given is showing little common sense but just based on figures.

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34 minutes ago, Van wink said:

There’s a bit more validity to that one, I’m still interested in Bills theory that people contract the virus, die and the death is registered all in two weeks. 

Oi, if you're not careful  Bill will accuse you of being Van Wink as well.

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On 13/06/2020 at 03:49, Barbe bleu said:

This is a rather silly way of evidencing your point.  Most people would look at this and say "this just tells me that four of the most populous countries have the most cases" 

Then they would have failed basic geography. 

India 2

USA 3

Brazil 7 

Russia  9 

UK 22 

which suggests the correlation is much more the government than population or type of society 

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Just a quick head up chaps, remember you must wear face masks when travelling  on public transport from today, I wouldn’t want anyone to get a fine 👍

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The possibility of a second wave now seems to be racing to the fore of discussions. Reports of  one already happening in Iran are disturbing, but possibly unreliable. 

The reported second wave in China is more alarming, to me at least.This report puts it into some perspective with some good news and some bad news .... the bad being highlighted:

 

 A Thai freelance script writer and anchor who lives in Beijing, said.

 

In a post on her Facebook account "Bo Siwattra" on Sunday (June 14), she said: “I have seen many headlines in Thailand saying that Beijing has entered 'Wartime’, which is far from what is happening here. They have closed only one district in Beijing, where new infections were found, not the entire province,” she said.

 

“All Thais need to do is just listen, not panic over this. In the area where I live, people are still going out as usual as the [Chinese] government has campaigned to stimulate domestic tourism. Today, people still live normally. Nobody has hoarded any food or products.”

 

She revealed that Chinese doctors expect a second wave of the virus to hit in September. The medical authorities are surprised by the new infections after 55 days without cases.

 

Chinese health authorities said on Sunday that they had received reports on Saturday of 57 new confirmed Covid-19 cases, the biggest number since April, of which 38 were local transmissions. No new deaths were reported. Of the 38 local infections, 36 were reported in Beijing and two others in the northeastern Liaoning province.

 

Chinese health authorities suspect salmon imported from Norway or workers carrying the virus who were not detected to be the source of the new outbreak. They said both assumptions are possible, but the first one is more likely to be true based on Beijing's current situation."

 

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30389613

 

One thing is clear. It is imperative that our government pay much more regard than they did before to the experiences of other countries about this matter and  that the first step need be proper attention to ports of entry (a major failure first time around) even if it means closing the airports again. Any hint of a second wave will probably come from within, but it need not be enhanced by more infection being brought in.

 

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On 13/06/2020 at 12:23, Herman said:

At least 4 out of the 5 pretended that Covid wasn't as bad as it was, hid the figures, lied to their populace and/or made the messaging vague. Too busy looking at their poll ratings to actually show a bit of leadership when it was clearly needed.

Not all populism is right wing I would agree. I could say that Corbyn was a left wing populist, just not very popular. And the guy in Venezuela as well. But that ended in disaster because his populism, although well meant, wasn't pragmatic. Populism, as has been proved or being proven ends in disaster. There are no easy answers to complex situations.

And populism isn't anti-elite. It is just another set of the elite using it to con people. You only have to look at our government to see that.

Two of the most non populist "say it how it is" prime ministers I can remember were Theresa May and Ted Heath - and they neither appeared to be good at leading the country or being re-elected. Thatcher managed to be non populist AND effective which is why she lasted so long, but most others tried to be popular......Cameron, Blair, Major, Brown (perhaps the worst at it because it looked so false), now Boris.  

Populism on it's own is worthless and although Cameron gave an image of being himself, his policies and attitudes were just public schoolboy bravado - same with Boris, but much, much worse.  At least of those others I mentioned, Blair, Major and Brown had (imo) a little bit of substance. May had a huge opportunity to be successful - but she blew it in every way, by being too "say it how it is" and also not actually being a very good leader.

Populism is just another form of fakery - and will always be found out. I still find it incredible that circumstances have led us to a Boris led country, as he was ALWAYS going to be out of his depth and a heck of a lot of people - many of them natural conservative voters - warned people what he would be like.  Sucked into power by the combination of the folly of Cameron and the poor leadership of May - not to mention the labour party who seem to have disintegrated as a political force in the absence of anyone who remotely appears to be a politician of any worth.  

Populist, fakery, trying to con everyone, lies, mis-information, lack of knowledge......  basically a grasp of only how to get power and no ability in actually knowing how to use it once in the hot seat.  Power, yay, I've got the power......but what is the point of power if your only interest was in getting power, with no ability to actually use that position? 

In Boris and Trump the western world has reached a point where populism and fakery have a grasp of power - and to be honest, it also shows how sheep like many voters are to have put them there.  Anyone vote for Boris? Baaaaaaa!

Edited by lake district canary

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I would be amazed if there were not to be a second wave, it’s a pattern in epidemiology. Social distancing and warm outdoors weather may well push it back to later in the year. IMO a second wave will hit us in the Autumn by when testing and track and trace will have huge capacity and hopefully we will be in a position to contain it.

Edited by Van wink

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16 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I would be amazed if there were not to be a second wave, it’s a pattern in epidemiology. Social distancing and warm outdoors weather may well push it back to later in the year. IMO a second wave will hit us in the Autumn by when testing and track and trace will have huge capacity and hopefully we will be in a position to contain it.

Not to mention, vaccines and treatments by then will be advanced so potentially less time if any in hospitals. As soon as the vaccine is cleared those vulnerable will be first wave of inoculations.

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

Just a quick head up chaps, remember you must wear face masks when travelling  on public transport from today, I wouldn’t want anyone to get a fine 👍

Do you have to wear them on a bike ?

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2 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

The possibility of a second wave now seems to be racing to the fore of discussions. Reports of  one already happening in Iran are disturbing, but possibly unreliable. 

The reported second wave in China is more alarming, to me at least.This report puts it into some perspective with some good news and some bad news .... the bad being highlighted:

 

 A Thai freelance script writer and anchor who lives in Beijing, said.

 

In a post on her Facebook account "Bo Siwattra" on Sunday (June 14), she said: “I have seen many headlines in Thailand saying that Beijing has entered 'Wartime’, which is far from what is happening here. They have closed only one district in Beijing, where new infections were found, not the entire province,” she said.

 

“All Thais need to do is just listen, not panic over this. In the area where I live, people are still going out as usual as the [Chinese] government has campaigned to stimulate domestic tourism. Today, people still live normally. Nobody has hoarded any food or products.”

 

She revealed that Chinese doctors expect a second wave of the virus to hit in September. The medical authorities are surprised by the new infections after 55 days without cases.

 

Chinese health authorities said on Sunday that they had received reports on Saturday of 57 new confirmed Covid-19 cases, the biggest number since April, of which 38 were local transmissions. No new deaths were reported. Of the 38 local infections, 36 were reported in Beijing and two others in the northeastern Liaoning province.

 

Chinese health authorities suspect salmon imported from Norway or workers carrying the virus who were not detected to be the source of the new outbreak. They said both assumptions are possible, but the first one is more likely to be true based on Beijing's current situation."

 

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30389613

 

One thing is clear. It is imperative that our government pay much more regard than they did before to the experiences of other countries about this matter and  that the first step need be proper attention to ports of entry (a major failure first time around) even if it means closing the airports again. Any hint of a second wave will probably come from within, but it need not be enhanced by more infection being brought in.

 

Is it possible for the virus to be on imported food? If so it is a worrying development as who is going to take imports from our virus infested shores?

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4 minutes ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

Is it possible for the virus to be on imported food? If so it is a worrying development as who is going to take imports from our virus infested shores?

I  questioned that,but blaming outsiders seems to be the norm for some of these dictatorships, ditto Thailand.

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

I would be amazed if there were not to be a second wave, it’s a pattern in epidemiology. Social distancing and warm outdoors weather may well push it back to later in the year. IMO a second wave will hit us in the Autumn by when testing and track and trace will have huge capacity and hopefully we will be in a position to contain it.

I'm reading that large parts of the population may be given the flu jab just ahead of winter, marking a change in the usual age profile. This will support the NHS not becoming overwhelmed in the winter if there is a flu epidemic plus any C19 re-infections. It makes sense if it becomes government policy.

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1 hour ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

Is it possible for the virus to be on imported food? If so it is a worrying development as who is going to take imports from our virus infested shores?

Read somewhere (admittedly a few weeks ago so the opinion/science may have changed) that it didn’t last very long on plastics (eg food wrappings) or actual fresh food. If it’s being exported, I’d imagine anything on it when it leaves here will have gone/died/stopped being infectious by the time it arrives anywhere else.

The same article said it does last quite a bit longer on metallic surfaces if I remember rightly (so avoid handrails, posts etc. where possible) but even then you were much more likely to catch it person to person than object to person. 

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46 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I'm reading that large parts of the population may be given the flu jab just ahead of winter, marking a change in the usual age profile. This will support the NHS not becoming overwhelmed in the winter if there is a flu epidemic plus any C19 re-infections. It makes sense if it becomes government policy.

Sounds like a very good idea.

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40 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Read somewhere (admittedly a few weeks ago so the opinion/science may have changed) that it didn’t last very long on plastics (eg food wrappings) or actual fresh food. If it’s being exported, I’d imagine anything on it when it leaves here will have gone/died/stopped being infectious by the time it arrives anywhere else.

The same article said it does last quite a bit longer on metallic surfaces if I remember rightly (so avoid handrails, posts etc. where possible) but even then you were much more likely to catch it person to person than object to person. 

The latest I heard was that viral RNA can be found on surfaces,maybe a few days after contamination, which is Covid 19 material but that is not the same thing as a viable virus being present. So testing would indicate its presence but that doesn’t mean that is in a form that can be infectious.

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3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The latest I heard was that viral RNA can be found on surfaces,maybe a few days after contamination, which is Covid 19 material but that is not the same thing as a viable virus being present. So testing would indicate its presence but that doesn’t mean that is in a form that can be infectious.

So the Chinese saying it's on Salmon is actually a Red Herring😉

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I'd kindly suggest that you give a wide berth to anyone carrying Primark bags. 

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15 minutes ago, ricardo said:

So the Chinese saying it's on Salmon is actually a Red Herring😉

Not sure about salmon but that may be a bit of a leap

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16 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Ricardo is often 'up stream' 😉

Unlike others who are up the creek

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

So the Chinese saying it's on Salmon is actually a Red Herring😉

That joke deserves a sock in the eye...🤓

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Give me strength. I guess the new placard should "Lives only matter if I can get my new trainers". God bless the younger generation. They have got their priorities right. What you wear on your feet.

 

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5 hours ago, sonyc said:

I'm reading that large parts of the population may be given the flu jab just ahead of winter, marking a change in the usual age profile. This will support the NHS not becoming overwhelmed in the winter if there is a flu epidemic plus any C19 re-infections. It makes sense if it becomes government policy.

The problem there is that the jab is NOT a vaccination against all flu.

It is the best guess of what variant is likely to be predominant. Otherwise the NHS would not have what they term 'winter pressure' ie a huge increase in the elderly with severe flu.

What needs to be done is to take back the care system back into NHS control - instead of wasting billions on lining the pockets of unscrupulous owners. integrating the care system back into the NHS would not only be more cost effective, but of great benefit to those being cared for.

of course it would mean care staff being better trained, and better paid. But the money needs to be spend their not on some private company with only an eye for the bottom line.

If nothing else the virus and its tragic results should be a wake up call for many of us who sat by and watched when Parliament cheered the vote to hold down improved pay for nurses and junior doctors. And the Sun was even calling for some of them to be sacked

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1713560/junior-doctors-used-to-be-saints-now-theyre-no-better-than-the-rail-union-bullies/

yep, clap on a Thursday night all you want - but where were you when this kind of odious stuff was being put out ?

and where will you be when next an attack is made on YOUR public services

almost the highest death rate in the world - that should tell you something is very wrong, and continue to be as long as you see no wrong in profit before lives

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17 hours ago, Surfer said:

Then they would have failed basic geography. 

India 2

USA 3

Brazil 7 

Russia  9 

UK 22 

which suggests the correlation is much more the government than population or type of society 

I believe there to be 193 members of the UN and several territories or entities with observer status.   Any country in the top ten by population is on any view "one of the most populous" nations on earth.

The theory the populism leads to poor pandemic performance is interesting but it needs better evidence than this thin gruel if you are going to convince anyone.

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