Corona Virus main thread

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Evidence?

The Independent

[Crafty Canary 495]

38 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Evidence?

The Independent

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

 

[Herman 9,756]

3 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

 

You have a scarily fascistic bent.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

7 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

 

Unlike senior  Tories  , a Senior Nurse would have a bit of discretion. The truth will out.

[sonyc 5,517]

It was reported by Shapps today at the briefing that one of her tweets had been pinned on the government's Twitter feed. I wonder who put it there! Clue...it wasn't the senior nurse

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

Nobody has to do anything to make this shower of siht look bad. As soon as Boris wakes up it begins again.

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

Evidence?

Chief nurse dropped from Downing Street coronavirus briefing ‘after refusing to back Dominic Cummings’

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Crafty Canary said:

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

@Crafty Canary there is no need for what you call "lefties" to denigrate the government, all that is needed is to judge them by their deeds and record. Too late to lock down, NHS rundown and at risk of not being able to manage, the PHE fiasco, the testing app fiasco, stopping tracing in February, fiddling the statistics, the second highest number of deaths and the lowest elector satisfaction ratings in the world.

Even dyed in the wool Tories like Tim Montgomerie no longer have confidence in Johnson, while the "leftie"  Daily Express report Boris Johnson is least popular leader in the WORLD according to poll.

 

[Crafty Canary 495]

5 hours ago, Herman said:

You have a scarily fascistic bent.

Well by your standards anyone to the right of Corbynism is fascistic. That Sir Keir Starmer needs to be careful.

[Bill 1,788]

10 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

So ‘senior sources’ claim this. Who are these ‘sources’ and what is their political agenda? Without much more concrete evidence this could be no more than fake news put about by lefties in their campaign to denigrate the government. Should the Senior Nurse confirm this story then the criticism would be justified.

did those naughty 'lefties' post up evidence again ?

boo hoo hoo.... bring back the ever so honest Mr Farage

[Too Bad 6]

16 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Thanks Mark - yes I saw that a few weeks back and although I've always said that it should evolve to be more infectious but less 'potent'  (just natural selection)  still think there is a huge heap of wishful thinking in that Italian observation - It was also dismissed as premature by WHO - but hey - if its true more data will prove and that will be good. I'm not holding my breath though. There are several simpler explanations - earlier diagnosis, better treatments, the most susceptible already 'passed' etc.

It evolves to survive. It survives by not killing its host. 

[Herman 9,756]

7 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

Well by your standards anyone to the right of Corbynism is fascistic. That Sir Keir Starmer needs to be careful.

Yes mate. Everyone against Johnson must be a Corbynite. Get off Fakebook, it's rotting your mind.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Herman

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

On 27/05/2020 at 21:24, PurpleCanary said:

Got interrupted by my optometrist from Barnard Castle turning up with the result of my eye test...

The serious point about populism (and the UK and the US are not the only current examples) is that by definition the bumper-sticker slogans that can win elections and referendums - even if they have an element of truth behind them, and they sometimes do  - bear no serious relationship in their simplicity to the vastly more complex business of solving whatever problems or injustices have been highlighted.

Added to which populist leaders are often maverick politicians or even non-politicians who claim it a virtue that they are not part of the establishment but who then almost by definition prove to lack the experience of how things work and the simple ability to govern efficiently. Trump, who has none of the necessary abiities and qualities, and is totally unfitted for the job he holds, is the prime example. All in all a recipe for maladministration.

Cummings may not be the right person to have chosen but Johnson, although not in Trump's class as a hapless dunce, needs people around him who can try to make up for his deficiencies. Perhaps the new permanent secretary at Number 10 charged with taking control of the response to the pandemic (yes, yes, months too late but...) will improve matters.

Or as Fiona Hill, the UK-born expert on Russia who testified to Congress in the impeachment/Ukraine investigation, says in an interview in The Guardian today, explaining why it is that the countries with arguably the worst governance record in the pandemic are all run, if that is the word, by populists:

“It’s a story really about how the US, UK and Russia have all ended up in the same spot weirdly, not just in terms of Covid-19 but also populist politics and many of the same out-of-control inequalities,”

In her view populist governments are useless at handling complex problems of governance, almost by definition. If leaders are fit to govern, they generally don’t need populism to get elected.

“It’s all about style and swagger and atmospherics, with superficial solutions to things, with lots of sloganeering, and obviously dealing with a pandemic is pretty methodical and boring. It requires an awful lot of planning and logistical organization and you can’t just sort of do it on the fly with an ad hoc coalition.”

[Bill 1,788]

I had pointed that out some while previous .... UK, US and Brazil

only I referred to them as righties

[Herman 9,756]

Just to back up your post Purple.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

Just to back up your post Purple.

 

The interview with Hill is well worth a read, leaving aside her specific comments on populism and the pandemic, for her close-quarters insights into Trump and her dire experiences as a clever working-class girl from up north trying to get on in British academia.

[sonyc 5,517]

On the matter of detail, planning and preparation from a populist government, I note that local authorities are complaining about a complete lack of consultation about summer schools that Williamson is expected to announce next week.  So, it will be very difficult to recruit and get staff in time.

And the BAME section of the Covid report is missing, the BMA have complained. What detail is missing here that is not being published?

This government becomes more contemptible each day.

[Herman 9,756]

Thanks for that Purple. A good read and one all sides should read.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/fiona-hill-trump-putin-populism-interview

[Bill 1,788]

30 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

In her view populist governments are useless at handling complex problems of governance, almost by definition. If leaders are fit to govern, they generally don’t need populism to get elected.

That rather over simplifies things.

The main causes of the UK's problems were not a supposed populist government - but those of rightwing policies. As it was Cameron through to May who oversaw the huge cutbacks in nurses, and also the running down of PPE stocks.

This cutting back on state expenditure is why those are funded, and elected. Much as with Trump, who implemented massive cuts to necessary areas that would deal with major problems, such as this virus.

It is not necessarily the incompetence at the top, but the lack of ability at the sharp end. Caused by shortage of staff, equipment and preparation.

The aptly named Herald of Free Enterprise sunk as a result of endless cuts to safety.... to save money.

So whoever was in government in February would have faced the same shortages - irrespective of their competence.

It is a matter of intent - not competence.

[A Load of Squit 5,161]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8416075/Boris-Johnson-scrapped-Cabinet-Ministers-pandemic-team-six-months-coronavirus-hit-Britain.html

Revealed: Boris Johnson scrapped Cabinet ministers' pandemic team six months before coronavirus hit Britain

This is very unlikely as Boris would've been told of the impending pandemic by Dom Cummings, it was all there in his (not amended, honrst guv.) blog.

Also, when he was a senior cabinet Minister in 2017 he would've seen the results of Exercise Cygnus warning that there was a strong possibility of a pandemic.

Only a blundering, blustering buffoon would, being in possession of these facts, decide to scrap the team set up to deal with such a situation. 🙂

 

[Bill 1,788]

Joking aside, this merely underpins my comments above, as

"But it was mothballed by former prime minister Theresa May on the advice of Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill so ministers and officials could focus on Brexit It was abolished by Mr Johnson days after he entered No10 last July as part of a vow to streamline Whitehall."

Johnson was put in place as someone who would go far further in cutting the role of the state - and has Cummings there to direct him. Further, because like Trump he is a narcissist who will happily do what is required to achieve high office. Where the accolades are of greater value than any worthy achievements

If you cut things to the bone, and hope they will not be needed, you risk huge problems when they are needed - as they are not there (see last winters floods).

Once you grasp who really benefits from cutting the cost of funding the state, then the rest easily falls into place.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Very reasonable post Billo, now apologise and become a reasonable person. Someone a few days back said you had painted yourself into a corner with your accusations. I suspect you have been waiting for the paint to dry so that you can waltz out of said corner.  Sorry chap , you forgot to add thinners( humility) and that paint will not dry. Both Tillo and I have offered you  a way out , through  an apology ....but youd rather be stuck in your corner than admit falli BILL ity. Just sayin. 

[Bill 1,788]

3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Very reasonable post Billo, now apologise and become a reasonable person. Someone a few days back said you had painted yourself into a corner with your accusations. I suspect you have been waiting for the paint to dry so that you can waltz out of said corner.  Sorry chap , you forgot to add thinners( humility) and that paint will not dry. Both Tillo and I have offered you  a way out , through  an apology ....but youd rather be stuck in your corner than admit falli BILL ity. Just sayin. 

essence of bile, with a subtle hint of paranoia

 

'I wear nothing else ......apart from my strait jacket'

Johanna Grey, Rennes

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

To defend oneself against untrue accusations is not as obsession,  habitually accusing posters of being the same person however, is. Do try to keep up my little misguided puppet. Not too bright are you.    This is so easy that I pity you.  

Edited June 13, 2020 by wcorkcanary

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

That rather over simplifies things.

The main causes of the UK's problems were not a supposed populist government - but those of rightwing policies. As it was Cameron through to May who oversaw the huge cutbacks in nurses, and also the running down of PPE stocks.

This cutting back on state expenditure is why those are funded, and elected. Much as with Trump, who implemented massive cuts to necessary areas that would deal with major problems, such as this virus.

It is not necessarily the incompetence at the top, but the lack of ability at the sharp end. Caused by shortage of staff, equipment and preparation.

The aptly named Herald of Free Enterprise sunk as a result of endless cuts to safety.... to save money.

So whoever was in government in February would have faced the same shortages - irrespective of their competence.

It is a matter of intent - not competence.

That is an over-simplification. That is the writer's summation of what she is saying rather than a direct quote, but accurate as far as I can see, but in any event it is a summation of what she is saying about populism and populists in general rather than just in the UK.

A reading of the whole piece shows she understands the longterm (in the UK going back much further than May and Cameron and in the US further than Trump) background to this:

“It’s a story really about how the US, UK and Russia have all ended up in the same spot weirdly, not just in terms of Covid-19 but also populist politics and many of the same out-of-control inequalities.”

“Populism provides a narrative for people who have lost their identities that were tied to meaningful work. When people lose that then they’re looking for something. There’s a feeling they’ve been robbed and deprived of a golden age, and they want that back and populist politics feeds upon that, and provides scapegoats for losing it..Liberal democracy hasn't been delivering.”

And postwar liberal democracy has encompassed parties of the centre-left as much as of the centre-right. Hence the rise of populism,. But while it is true that populism and populists are pretty much by definition right-wing, because cutting back the state is common to all such, her point about a lack of competence is just as valid.

[Barbe bleu 823]

5 hours ago, Too Bad said:

It evolves to survive. It survives by not killing its host. 

Yes but if we assume that it spreads fairly well via the infected but asymptomatic population its done a pretty good job on the evolution thing already. 

Asymptomatic in most but deadly in others is pretty much the  nightmare scenario but also one where it is difficult to see much pressure for widespread benign mutation.  SARS was always going to be short lived given the rapidity at which it knocked people down but this one is different 

[Barbe bleu 823]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Just to back up your post Purple.

 

This is a rather silly way of evidencing your point.  Most people would look at this and say "this just tells me that four of the most populous countries have the most cases" .  If they thought a bit harder they might conclude that "four of the most populous countries with a mature science and technology sector have the most cases". 

Im not saying that your point is wrong but I think it just invites rejection.  Perhaps  Indonesia and pakistan (or any other  big nation) do not have populist governments ( I have no idea and no inclination to find out) and this is key to to relative success. 

I'm also intrigued by the notion that populism is inherently right wing.   I see populism as being inherently anti-elite. Sure its expressed  (and subverted) in right wing terms by Trump and others but it could find expression in the far left.

[Herman 9,756]

At least 4 out of the 5 pretended that Covid wasn't as bad as it was, hid the figures, lied to their populace and/or made the messaging vague. Too busy looking at their poll ratings to actually show a bit of leadership when it was clearly needed.

Not all populism is right wing I would agree. I could say that Corbyn was a left wing populist, just not very popular. And the guy in Venezuela as well. But that ended in disaster because his populism, although well meant, wasn't pragmatic. Populism, as has been proved or being proven ends in disaster. There are no easy answers to complex situations.

And populism isn't anti-elite. It is just another set of the elite using it to con people. You only have to look at our government to see that.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

At least 4 out of the 5 pretended that Covid wasn't as bad as it was, hid the figures, lied to their populace and/or made the messaging vague. Too busy looking at their poll ratings to actually show a bit of leadership when it was clearly needed.

Not all populism is right wing I would agree. I could say that Corbyn was a left wing populist, just not very popular. And the guy in Venezuela as well. But that ended in disaster because his populism, although well meant, wasn't pragmatic. Populism, as has been proved or being proven ends in disaster. There are no easy answers to complex situations.

And populism isn't anti-elite. It is just another set of the elite using it to con people. You only have to look at our government to see that.

I was the one who was saying populism was essentially right-wing, but I was talking in terms of the western world, where I would say that is a fair generalisation. Almost all western populists portray themselves as being outsiders (even though, as you say many are not) whose main 'policy' is to reduce the role of the state. In western politics that is pretty much exclusively a right-wing aim.

[Bill 1,788]

those who lost their lives in the past 24 hours has been listed as 31

taking into account that it is the weekend (lower collated numbers) it does suggest that the mad stampede to be out doors a fortnight ago has not produced the increase in numbers suggested (by me for obe0

so wit most folk behaving as prior to the lock down, and no sill fancy dress there is every hope that this is within manageable numbers, and it provides a 'breathing space' (no pun) to prepare for the autumn rush, or winter pressure as is known to the NHS