Corona Virus main thread

[BigFish 1,986]

1 minute ago, Barbe bleu said:

PMQs is a pantomime

It's ok during normal events but it's very superficial. The government should be focused on what is important and not what will play well at the theatre.

Challenge is important but I'm increasingly of the opinion that the challenges and the reaction to them are not where the focus should be.

We spent days on the saga of gowns from turkey yet there is no evidence (as far as I know) of anyone getting  seriously ill because they lacked a gown.  Then it was the 100,000 and huge importance was attached to whether or not the government reached an entirely arbitrary mumber. If the government spent less time on that sort of nonsense and  more on infection control in the community we might be in a better state now.

Bin off PMQs and film a committee meeting instead.  It will provide strong challenge but in a focused manner.  I'd also have practitioners heavily involved.

The bear  baiting can come later.

Don't agree, we need Johnson hung out to justify himself every week. Otherwise he will hide away and refuse accountability #WheresBoris

[sonyc 5,510]

4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

PMQs is a pantomime

It's ok during normal events but it's very superficial. The government should be focused on what is important and not what will play well at the theatre.

Challenge is important but I'm increasingly of the opinion that the challenges and the reaction to them are not where the focus should be.

We spent days on the saga of gowns from turkey yet there is no evidence (as far as I know) of anyone getting  seriously ill because they lacked a gown.  Then it was the 100,000 and huge importance was attached to whether or not the government reached an entirely arbitrary mumber. If the government spent less time on that sort of nonsense and  more on infection control in the community we might be in a better state now.

Bin off PMQs and film a committee meeting instead.  It will provide strong challenge but in a focused manner.  I'd also have practitioners heavily involved.

The bear  baiting can come later.

 

 

 

I agree with this. Pantomime it is. Yet, that is the product of our electoral system and indeed the 2 houses.

[sonyc 5,510]

1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Don't agree, we need Johnson hung out to justify himself every week. Otherwise he will hide away and refuse accountability #WheresBoris

Think Bb was suggesting Johnson faced better scrutiny through another process. He likes after all to play to a gallery with all his jokes and Latin. It suits him but face to face with an O'Neil or Mair, he cannot stand up.

[BigFish 1,986]

Go on, knock yourself out @Barbe bleu

[BigFish 1,986]

2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Think Bb was suggesting Johnson faced better scrutiny through another process. He likes after all to play to a gallery with all his jokes and Latin. It suits him but face to face with an O'Neil or Mair, he cannot stand up.

That may be, but scrapping PMQs doesn't add to the scrutiny, does it?

[Surfer 1,547]

Absolutely. PMQ is for the Opposition to grill the PM, not for the PM to grandstand. And this PM is now being held to account very effectively ... hence why Mogg wants the braying sheep back. 

With a good Speaker to keep control, no reason to shut it down. It’s a key part of our system. 

As for select committees being a substitute etc - where is the Russia report? In practice we need both forums 

[sonyc 5,510]

5 minutes ago, BigFish said:

That may be, but scrapping PMQs doesn't add to the scrutiny, does it?

Well, perhaps Starmer and Hoyle can civilise it then?

One good thing about PMQs is that it increases public exposure to what is happening and it's widely reported.

Yet, the quality of debate is ruined by all the braying MPs. Hence, the pantomime comment.

Still, Hancock was told off like a schoolboy yesterday and that was far better from Hoyle than Bercow.

[Mark .Y. 352]

Interesting point of view about lockdown..............

Sunetra Guptra

[Barbe bleu 822]

Agreed, PMQs is very theatrical and theatre and detail dont mix well.  There is also the fact that the commons on all sides is stuffed with lawyers and professional politicians. 

I would have a round table discussion where MPs and scientists from outside the government/SAGE are involved.  It's not a spectator sport but it would would provide focus on where it needs to be

Big fish said earlier that "boris fell into two traps yesterday" how is it helpful to set traps or try to avoid them?  Starmer should not be trawling through old documents to see where we messed up (that can come later) and instead should be providing challenge to what is to come.  His deputy is (I think)a former care home worker, surely he should.be leveraging that experience to help guide future policy rather than his lawyer training to examine documents now several weeks old and overtaken by events?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Barbe bleu

[ricardo 7,384]

7 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

Interesting point of view about lockdown..............

Sunetra Guptra

Experts with totally conflicting advice. Who'd  a thunk it?

Whatever your view there will always be someone to blame if you don't  like the results.

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

Herd Immunity Types - Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

 

Stockholm 7.3 % !!!! (not 25%, 35% or anywhere near what they thought!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

PMQ's are highly important. The chamber is purely for debate and people can see for themselves how well people stand up to pressure. The questions are known to the PM and his staff so if they fumble then it illustrates their ability.

The only objection I have are the leading ones by the PM's own party.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Absolutely. PMQ is for the Opposition to grill the PM, not for the PM to grandstand. And this PM is now being held to account very effectively ... hence why Mogg wants the braying sheep back. 

With a good Speaker to keep control, no reason to shut it down. It’s a key part of our system. 

As for select committees being a substitute etc - where is the Russia report? In practice we need both forums 

Spot on,...........and where indeed is the Russia report?????

[Barbe bleu 822]

53 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Herd Immunity Types - Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

 

Stockholm 7.3 % !!!! (not 25%, 35% or anywhere near what they thought!

Apparently not too far from what they thought if you believe other reports.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.se/20200520/heres-what-swedens-first-coronavirus-antibody-tests-tell-us/amp

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-stockholm-virus-antibodies-sweden.html#lightbox

According to Hancock 17% in london and 5%plus in UK have antibodies. He didn't say when this was or if the figure has been adjusted for false negatives.  

This seems to my untrained eye to fit with the better relative figures for london we have seen emerge over the last few weeks.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Barbe bleu

[Barbe bleu 822]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Spot on,...........and where indeed is the Russia report?????

In the russia report thread 

[Herman 9,754]

PMQs work. A strong question from Starmer lead to a U-turn on the NHS surcharge for overseas NHS staff.

 

[sonyc 5,510]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

PMQs work. A strong question from Starmer lead to a U-turn on the NHS surcharge for overseas NHS staff.

 

Quite how BJ believed £900m as the real cost is the most incredible thing. Sometimes figures look so ridiculous (even though given to him) you'd think you might reality check them / get a second opinion.

Edited May 21, 2020 by sonyc

[dj11 377]

13 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Quite how BJ believed £900m as the real cost is the most incredible thing. Sometimes figures look so ridiculous (even though given to him) you'd think you might reality check them / get a second opinion.

Maybe the numbers were supplied by the Home Secretary.

[Bill 1,788]

afternoon all

pleased to announce I am ok once again - I thought I might have contracted Cromervirus but given the all clear

actually it was a couple of days between  changing broadband providers

however I'm sure. without me pointing it out the country is already a far different place to what it was a week or so back - quite a bit earlier than I had suggested, but that was in regard to the PL returning

but at least Bertie the Buffoon has once again stood by his principles

"I have thought a great deal about this, and I accept and understand the difficulties faced by our amazing NHS staff."

_On the other hand, we must look at the realities. This is a great national service – it is a national institution – that needs funding, and those contributions help us to raise about £900m. It is very difficult in the current circumstances to find alternative sources, so with great respect for [Starmer’s] point, I think it is the right way forward."

until someone told him it wasn't, so we witness yet another complete U -turn from this clueless idiot

 

[Herman 9,754]

16 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Quite how BJ believed £900m as the real cost is the most incredible thing. Sometimes figures look so ridiculous (even though given to him) you'd think you might reality check them / get a second opinion.

His problem was that he used such a ludicrous figure that it didn't sound right as soon as he said it. So everyone gets out their calculators and realise he's talking nonsense.

[Surfer 1,547]

That’s two climb downs this week. Which shows that the criticism of the PM is accurate - he will wait for the populace to indicate which way they intend to go, then jump out in front to lead them. 
 

Look that’s not very statesmanlike, but its not a fatal flaw. it does show that an effective Loyal Opposition can still effect the outcome for the country. And why media is still so important.

[Mark .Y. 352]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Herd Immunity Types - Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

 

Stockholm 7.3 % !!!! (not 25%, 35% or anywhere near what they thought!

Or a slightly fuller verison...................

 

"Although these samples were taken at the end of April, the Public Health Agency said: "The numbers reflect the state of the epidemic earlier in April, as it takes a few weeks for the body's immune system to develop antibodies."

It it is not clear exactly how these numbers line up with the Public Health Agency's earlier model that predicted a quarter of the Stockholm population would have had the virus by May 1st. But state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said the figures were "not far off" those in the model. 

"We aren't at seven percent [infection rate in Stockholm] now. It was seven percent around week 15, so that is quite a long time ago. These people were immune in week 18 [the week ending May 3rd], that means they fell ill at some point in week 14 or 15. We are somewhere around 20 percent plus in Stockholm now," Tegnell told journalists at the press conference.

It is still unclear what level of immunity previous infection by the virus provides. But several studies have suggested that people who have been infected do have some antibodies that according to the World Health Organisation would likely "provide some level of protection" against re-infection. But there is still no evidence to show whether people are fully immune, or for how long."

[Bill 1,788]

What on earth possessed him to think thus was a good idea in the first place - is that much out of touch ?

Anyone with half a brain would have seen this coming (as he dis0 then pre-empt Starmer's cutting question by announcing a review (at least).

But this has been one of his main failings, an inability to grasp his brief and a dullard mind not to be able to defend it. Hence hid dodging of Andrew O'Neil, Eddie Mair and now even Piers Morgan Any politician worth their salt is able to defend their corner however bad. Johnson cannot, even when it is good

So he covers it up with wiffle waffle, bits of latin he has learned the night before and hopes to wing it. The same criticism of him that has followed throughout his adult (and school) life.

With a supportive press (Evening Standard) as mayor, and the right wing press during Parliamentary time he has been able to wing it. Only now when there is no easy hiding place (fridge) is his complete incompetence being exposed. He's not as bad as some might have though, he is worse.

And suggested figures of over 54,000 deaths is not such an indictment of him, as of the half witted numpties who choose to look the other way and vote for him in December.

WHAT ON EARTH DID THEY THINK THEY WERE GETTING ?

[Surfer 1,547]

3 minutes ago, Bill said:

 

With a supportive press (Evening Standard) as mayor, and the right wing press during Parliamentary time he has been able to wing it. Only now when there is no easy hiding place (fridge) is his complete incompetence being exposed. He's not as bad as some might have though, he is worse.

And suggested figures of over 54,000 deaths is not such an indictment of him, as of the half witted numpties who choose to look the other way and vote for him in December.

WHAT ON EARTH DID THEY THINK THEY WERE GETTING ?

Yes it's obvious that BJ is incompetent, as is DT over here in US. However both remain in power because a) their opponents made stupid mistakes to help them get that power and b) because despite every breath of trust and procedure their respective parties want to keep them in power. So the question is how does the public pressure those around these two "leaders" to put pressure on them to do the right thing? We have seen two examples that BJ can be pushed around this week; you would expect him to dig in his heels on the next one to make sure he is not seen as "weak", but weak he is, which is a good thing if you object to this Government's policies. 

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Big fish said earlier that "boris fell into two traps yesterday" how is it helpful to set traps or try to avoid them?  Starmer should not be trawling through old documents to see where we messed up (that can come later) and instead should be providing challenge to what is to come.  His deputy is (I think)a former care home worker, surely he should.be leveraging that experience to help guide future policy rather than his lawyer training to examine documents now several weeks old and overtaken by events?

This post looks rather foolish now, faster than anyone could have thought possible.

This is a perfect example of why PMQs are important and why traps are necessary to improve policy. Johnson had no intention at all of stopping charging carers & NHS workers because they happened to be foreign. In fact he was planning to increase the charge. He said so in parliament at PMQs. Yes, it was a trap, but it was one Johnson was dumb enough to fall into.

From the moment Starmer said Labour would lay an an amendment to the immigration Johnson was shafted.

Superb work to get the right outcome.

[Bill 1,788]

Those mistakes being not to lie their ar ses off

Trump was going to build a wall. ban all muslims from entering the country, remove as much universal health care as possible and jail Hilary Clinton

 Whereas with Johnson it is hard to know where to start. Though some of his back benches have already started ...... sniping at him. Those gormless fools in the north who thought that an habitual liar would err, ..... stop lying, will not be best pleased when the great revival, nor sunny uplands happen.

Other than pointing out his lies and incompetence there is not much needed doing with either. With Johnson we have a man who has failed at every job. And no delusion from those who are in charge of him will stop a constant stream of failure dragging along in his wake

Johnson is, and always was, not a clever man pretending to be a fool - but a fool with nothing else he can pretend.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The antibody testing results do not give any hope that a second wave can be avoided. Only five months and the clocks will change. And people can furlough until then.

It just doesn't signal anything other than this is going to be slowly slowly catchy monkey.

[Bill 1,788]

"Earlier Boris Johnson had praised Mr Hancock, as he told the Commons the UK is now testing more “than virtually any country in Europe”.

Tests per 1 million population 20th May 2020

Iceland 169,003

Lithuania 90,080

Denmark 84,765

Portugal 66,079

Spain 64,977

Belgium 62,175 I

Ireland 59,949 I

Italy 51,338

Austria 42,175

Switzerland 41,099

UK 40,866

Norway 40,615

Or if you prefer the actual number of tests

Russia 7,578,029

Germany 3,147,771

Italy 3,104,524

Spain 3,037,840

UK 2,772,552

Put simply Johnson lies, as he always has done. Only now the scrutiny is tighter

[Mark .Y. 352]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

The antibody testing results do not give any hope that a second wave can be avoided. Only five months and the clocks will change. And people can furlough until then.

It just doesn't signal anything other than this is going to be slowly slowly catchy monkey.

Seriously KG, cheer up - you'll do yourself in  🙂

For every expert that says there willl be a second wave, there is one who says there won't be.

I've read lots of stuff about people who have definitely had the virus but no antibodies are showing, and there are reasons why this could easily happen and doesn't mean that they have not gained immunity - though how long that would last, I don't think anybody knows.

But hey, it's been a lovely day here, and I'm sure it has been down in your neck of the woods, so look on the bright side  🙂

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, Mark .Y. said:

Seriously KG, cheer up - you'll do yourself in  🙂

For every expert that says there willl be a second wave, there is one who says there won't be.

I've read lots of stuff about people who have definitely had the virus but no antibodies are showing, and there are reasons why this could easily happen and doesn't mean that they have not gained immunity - though how long that would last, I don't think anybody knows.

But hey, it's been a lovely day here, and I'm sure it has been down in your neck of the woods, so look on the bright side  🙂

 

For each bit of good news, something or someone seems to spoil it. But I am upbeat believe me. Lots of sunshine as you say. And the rain for usis overnight so its golf again in the morning.

Of course we take our choices with experts. But the threat of a second wave is not exactly being dismissed fervently.