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12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

image.png.eca014c19cd636c615d623cb3a1ab7b6.png

 

Yet some on here think Boris is doing a good job.

What is the source of this?   The last statistics I saw suggest that we are now 16 days behind italy in terms of deaths rather than 14.

Thw numbers are far too small to read much into the official statistics but unless numbers were very high after the official stats were produced I am not sure that this is a sustainable argument.

Hopefully this is a guardian piece.

Hopefully also it will be very quiet  out there today...

 

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16 minutes ago, kick it off said:

image.png.eca014c19cd636c615d623cb3a1ab7b6.png

 

Yet some on here think Boris is doing a good job.

One never thought to say this but there is a well-written piece in the Mail by Piers Morgan, so hardly someone to be demonised as a Corbynista in The Guardian, detailing how Johnson has been slow rather than (awful word but...) proactive all the way through:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8142731/PIERS-MORGAN-Boris-Johnsons-dithering-cost-lot-British-lives.html

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4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

What is the source of this?   The last statistics I saw suggest that we are now 16 days behind italy in terms of deaths rather than 14.

Thw numbers are far too small to read much into the official statistics but unless numbers were very high after the official stats were produced I am not sure that this is a sustainable argument.

Hopefully this is a guardian piece.

Hopefully also it will be very quiet  out there today...

 

Yesterday's telegraph - it's (paywalled) here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/23/coronavirus-deaths-italy-rising-faster-uk/

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6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

One never thought to say this but there is a well-written piece in the Mail by Piers Morgan, so hardly someone to be demonised as a Corbynista in The Guardian, detailing how Johnson has been slow rather than (awful word but...) proactive all the way through:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8142731/PIERS-MORGAN-Boris-Johnsons-dithering-cost-lot-British-lives.html

I think we need to be careful pointing fingers, it’s government advisory which dictates his actions.

Add to this to say cost lot of British lives is a little controversial as how many of those were in the final throws of their lives? Most who have succumbed have serious underlying illness. It’s harsh to point fingers during a testing time. Like I said I’m no Boris lover but he’s under serious pressure and so far is acting as advised, shame people on the street couldn’t do the same.

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24 minutes ago, kick it off said:

image.png.eca014c19cd636c615d623cb3a1ab7b6.png

 

Yet some on here think Boris is doing a good job.


S.Korea                    6  %

Iran                           7

Italy                          10

UK                            16

Netherlands           16

Switzerland            18

France                     22

Spain                       23

Germany                 23

Austria                    24

USA                         24

Belgium                  26

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3 minutes ago, Indy said:

It’s harsh to point fingers during a testing time. 

Isn't that the point though? WE stopped testing as Boris couldn't organise a ****-up in a brewery despite WHO saying it was critical. 

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Just now, Indy said:

I think we need to be careful pointing fingers, it’s government advisory which dictates his actions.

Add to this to say cost lot of British lives is a little controversial as how many of those were in the final throws of their lives? Most who have succumbed have serious underlying illness. It’s harsh to point fingers during a testing time. Like I said I’m no Boris lover but he’s under serious pressure and so far is acting as advised, shame people on the street couldn’t do the same.

Indy, ultimately the job of a leader is to decide, based on advice. And it seems clear that with the coronavirus there were noticeably different approaches advocated by different experts. Otherwise European countries in particular would have adopted the same policy, as the UK, but they didn't. And the other point that Morgan makes, which is very hard to argue with, is that Johnson was very slow to react to the danger and prepare for it, even though it reached the UK later on.

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1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

Indy, ultimately the job of a leader is to decide, based on advice. And it seems clear that with the coronavirus there were noticeably different approaches advocated by different experts. Otherwise European countries in particular would have adopted the same policy, as the UK, but they didn't. And the other point that Morgan makes, which is very hard to argue with, is that Johnson was very slow to react to the danger and prepare for it, even though it reached the UK later on.

In fact purple, nobody in the world adopted the same policy as the UK. Everybody else shut schools immediately and quickly. They locked down hotspots. Whilst Boris blathered on about "advice".

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Just now, kick it off said:

In fact purple, nobody in the world adopted the same policy as the UK. Everybody else shut schools immediately and quickly. They locked down hotspots. Whilst Boris blathered on about "advice".

So you're saying Boris didn't base his policy on COBRA advice/Chris Whitty etc., but effectively overrode it with his own opinion?

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Which experts told him to shake hands with Covid19 patients do you think?

"He smirked and replied: ‘I am shaking hands. I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were coronavirus patients and I was shaking hands with everybody, you will be pleased to know, and I continue to shake hands.’" March 3rd

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ian said:

So you're saying Boris didn't base his policy on COBRA advice/Chris Whitty etc., but effectively overrode it with his own opinion?

I'm saying that when he was given the herd immunity advice, common sense should have said it was ****ing stupid. He was actively pursuing a policy of infecting as many people as quickly as possible whilst the WHO was saying it was a stupid, reckless and dangerous thing to do. He never once thought "Every other country in the world is responding in the total opposite way, the WHO says herd immunity won't work, maybe I have this wrong". Never once questioned why every other country's scientists were saying something totally opposite to what his were?

Why on Earth is he still listening to Chris Whitty etc who presumably told him to pursue a policy that would have killed 500,000 people?! Whitty and Vallance should be out on their ****, gross misconduct of the highest order.

Edited by kick it off

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Essentially my feelings are that the government currently would have a C (pass) grade for the measure in place, if they'd gotten the assignment in on time.

We knew how serious this was getting weeks ago but those in charge for some reason relied on a traditionally belligerent and generally dumb population taking gentle advice on staying at home.

We seemed to think we were cleverer than everyone else and were going to solve it our own secret way. This clip from Family Guy sums up how Britain must have looked from the outside.

https://youtu.be/g1eswGrkMU8

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12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

In fact purple, nobody in the world adopted the same policy as the UK. Everybody else shut schools immediately and quickly. They locked down hotspots. Whilst Boris blathered on about "advice".

Not everyone closed schools 'immediately'. I mean, define 'immediately' for a start! How longs a piece of string? When the virus was first detected? All countries are at different stages of the virus - when we closed our schools it might have actually been quicker than other countries at the same stage.

The country that has been most successful at combating the virus, South Korea, hasn't enforced a lockdown at all. Different things are working (or not) in different countries with different cultures and different ways of living.

While by all means disagree with the actions of your government, as is your right, but I do feel your comments are slightly tinged by your clear hatred of Boris. I'm going to go out on a limb here - you're not a Brexit fan, are you?

OTBC

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1 minute ago, Indy said:

I think we need to be careful pointing fingers, it’s government advisory which dictates his actions.

Add to this to say cost lot of British lives is a little controversial as how many of those were in the final throws of their lives? Most who have succumbed have serious underlying illness. It’s harsh to point fingers during a testing time. Like I said I’m no Boris lover but he’s under serious pressure and so far is acting as advised, shame people on the street couldn’t do the same.

Yes, I concur.....I'm just letting the usual Boris Bashers and Government critics rant and rave......I tend to ignore and work around them.....These are quite surreal, uncanny and incredibly difficult times for all....Not just here in the UK, but everywhere on this planet.....If those petulant politico people on here want to vent their spleen and criticise anything concerning the path and direction those in Government are taking.....Let them.....Empty vessels an' all that......

Stay sensible, stay safe.....Stay in..... 

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14 minutes ago, Ian said:

So you're saying Boris didn't base his policy on COBRA advice/Chris Whitty etc., but effectively overrode it with his own opinion?

No, not Johnson who has no strong opinions and changes them like a weather vane.

Dominic Cummings, widely quoted as saying if a few pensioners died, so be it.

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7 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I'm saying that when he was given the herd immunity advice, common sense should have said it was ****ing stupid. He was actively pursuing a policy of infecting as many people as quickly as possible whilst the WHO was saying it was a stupid, reckless and dangerous thing to do.

This wasn't the government strategy - even if the Guardian says it was. It was mentioned by one of the science chaps that it would be a natural result of the virus spread. He didn't articulate it very well and the press jumped on him. There was some confusion at first, I grant you that 100%.

OTBC

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9 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I'm saying that when he was given the herd immunity advice, common sense should have said it was ****ing stupid. He was actively pursuing a policy of infecting as many people as quickly as possible whilst the WHO was saying it was a stupid, reckless and dangerous thing to do. He never once thought "Every other country in the world is responding in the total opposite way, the WHO says herd immunity won't work, maybe I have this wrong". Never once questioned why every other country's scientists were saying something totally opposite to what his were?

Why on Earth is he still listening to Chris Whitty etc who presumably told him to pursue a policy that would have killed 500,000 people?! Whitty and Vallance should be out on their ****, gross misconduct of the highest order.

So you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the hugely well-respected experts with relevant experience, but in fact should have overridden them with his own opinion because of "common sense"? Didn't think you would be advocating that sort of dictatorial behaviour from Johnson.

This is not a simple situation. Despite the fact you are clearly trying to make it so, presumably for the purpose of political point scoring, any cursory research makes it clear this is not a straightforward problem that can be easily solved, and will have far reaching repercussions for many, many months and years to come. 

Whilst we will doubtless look back and see where improvements should and could have been made in the Government's strategy, please let's not try and make this into a foaming at the mouth party political situation.

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1 hour ago, Uncle Fred said:

Canabis farmer? 

Those Camberwell carrots are purely medicinal. 😀

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2 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Not everyone closed schools 'immediately'. I mean, define 'immediately' for a start! How longs a piece of string? When the virus was first detected? All countries are at different stages of the virus - when we closed our schools it might have actually been quicker than other countries at the same stage.

The country that has been most successful at combating the virus, South Korea, hasn't enforced a lockdown at all. Different things are working (or not) in different countries with different cultures and different ways of living.

While by all means disagree with the actions of your government, as is your right, but I do feel your comments are slightly tinged by your clear hatred of Boris. I'm going to go out on a limb here - you're not a Brexit fan, are you?

OTBC

90 countries in the world were closed a week ago. Are all of them ahead of us? Malta, Panama, Lebanon, Moldova were all shut last week with far less cases. We were slower to shut the schools than pretty much every country, slower to ban mass gatherings than almost every country etc etc.

South Korea tested quickly and widely. Boris decided to stop testing entirely. So yes, you're right, different things have worked, and Brois has been slow on the uptake for every single one of them.

Like I said previously, I'm no Tory, no Brexiteer and certainly not a Boris fan, but I appreciate the job Sunak has done in a tough time. Boris on the other hand has pursued herd immunity despite no other country in the world following it, and the WHO saying it was dumb. He has failed to take any decisive action up until now, and we will pay a price for that.

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So you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the hugely well-respected experts with relevant experience, but in fact should have overridden them with his own opinion because of "common sense"? Didn't think you would be advocating that sort of dictatorial behaviour from Johnson

I'm not sure relevant experience is valid in this case. We were acknowledged as at least two weeks behind much of Europe so maybe could have taken much more advice than the narrow one he chose.

I cannot stand the chap or his policies but think he has done as well as HE can. I think we somehow missed the testing advice. Maybe because we didn't have the capability to test comprehensively. Which is a matter ongoing about policy rather than a reaction to the crisis.

But apart from some detail like self employed who don't pay business rates, I think they have acted appropriately financially.

Funnily enough, somebody said to me that the government is useless and I pointed out to them that they voted for them in December.

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1 minute ago, Ian said:

So you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the hugely well-respected experts with relevant experience, but in fact should have overridden them with his own opinion because of "common sense"? Didn't think you would be advocating that sort of dictatorial behaviour from Johnson.

This is not a simple situation. Despite the fact you are clearly trying to make it so, presumably for the purpose of political point scoring, any cursory research makes it clear this is not a straightforward problem that can be easily solved, and will have far reaching repercussions for many, many months and years to come. 

Whilst we will doubtless look back and see where improvements should and could have been made in the Government's strategy, please let's not try and make this into a foaming at the mouth party political situation.

Yes he should have listened to the experts - the ones in every other country in the ****ing world that were saying something different. The WHO which has the best medical scientists in the world. He listened to the anamolous advice because it suited what he wanted to hear, instead of listening to the consensus advice from 99% of scientists.

It is a simple problem though isn't it. Stay at home, save lives.... do you think Boris has done enough in that regard?

It's not party political in any way. I would criticise anybody of any political colour who had responded to this crisis in the way Boris has, he's been pathetic, spineless and dithered around with vague announcements and some which defied logic. For example, pubs should have shut an hour after he announced it, not the next day. All it did was encourage people to go to the boozer for a last **** up - that kind of incompetence is unforgivable.

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Goverments are acting on the best advise and modelling they can. The situation is evolving and changing as new information and data comes in all the time. Whatever they do, someone will say it is wrong, even the experts in this field disagree on strategies

This is from the WHO website from the 12/01/2020 and I post this not to have a pop at the WHO but to show that best advice at any moment is just that.

Full statement is here https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/

WHO advice

Based on information provided by national authorities, WHO’s recommendations on public health measures and surveillance for novel coronaviruses apply.

WHO does not recommend any specific health measures for travellers. In case of symptoms suggestive of respiratory illness either during or after travel, travellers are encouraged to seek medical attention and share travel history with their healthcare provider. Travel guidance has been updated.

WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available on this event.

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1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

So you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the hugely well-respected experts with relevant experience, but in fact should have overridden them with his own opinion because of "common sense"? Didn't think you would be advocating that sort of dictatorial behaviour from Johnson

I'm not sure relevant experience is valid in this case. We were acknowledged as at least two weeks behind much of Europe so maybe could have taken much more advice than the narrow one he chose.

I cannot stand the chap or his policies but think he has done as well as HE can. I think we somehow missed the testing advice. Maybe because we didn't have the capability to test comprehensively. Which is a matter ongoing about policy rather than a reaction to the crisis.

But apart from some detail like self employed who don't pay business rates, I think they have acted appropriately financially.

Funnily enough, somebody said to me that the government is useless and I pointed out to them that they voted for them in December.

I agree with that. Expertise may not be as useful in unprecedented times, but it was the best advice available.

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5 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

This wasn't the government strategy - even if the Guardian says it was. It was mentioned by one of the science chaps that it would be a natural result of the virus spread. He didn't articulate it very well and the press jumped on him. There was some confusion at first, I grant you that 100%.

OTBC

Why mention the Guardian, as if that automatically renders something null? You can find any number of articles from around the world saying the herd strategy was adopted, before being dropped. Take this from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, which is one of the most respected scientific establishments in the world:

 

A new report issued by a group of experts advising the UK government offers a blistering assessment of the country’s previous “herd immunity” approach to coronavirus, suggesting that as many as 250,000 people could die as a result—and that it would do little to stop health-care facilities from being overwhelmed. 

The background: Last week, Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced that his country would adopt a different coronavirus strategy from the ones its European neighbors have followed. Most governments have sought to suppress the spread of the virus by reducing mass gatherings, imposing quarantine restrictions, and encouraging social distancing. But Johnson said the country would forgo such measures with an unusual plan to prevent the outbreak from overwhelming the health-care system and protect the most vulnerable groups during peak infection seasons. Under the strategy, at least 60% of the population were expected to contract the virus and get better—mostly younger individuals who would face only a mild form of illness. The government believed this would result in a “herd immunity” that would subsequently protect vulnerable groups from infection, while avoiding “behavioral fatigue” that would cause people to stop cooperating with safety measures over time.

Sharp realizations: That strategy was met with fierce criticism over the weekend. The Covid-19 Response Team based at Imperial College in London revealed on Monday that the government’s experts realized only over the last few days that its policy would “likely result in hundreds of thousands of deaths”—potentially 250,000—and that the burden on health systems would exceed their capacities and resources by as much as eight times.

 

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2 minutes ago, kick it off said:

South Korea tested quickly and widely. Boris decided to stop testing entirely. So yes, you're right, different things have worked, and Brois has been slow on the uptake for every single one of them.

Thanks for your reply.

Boris/the UK hasn't stopped testing - they changed the focus to hospitals and GP surgeries.

I do completely agree that testing should be increased - as you correctly state, South Korea's main weapon has been an excellent testing system. I have to admit to being concerned that our numbers in relation to testing haven't increased in the last few days - they went up to over 8000 one day and then have stuck around 5000. I would have hoped we would have topped 10,000 a day by now. Not sure what the issue is - this the kind of question the press need to be asking.

OTBC

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

This wasn't the government strategy - even if the Guardian says it was. It was mentioned by one of the science chaps that it would be a natural result of the virus spread. He didn't articulate it very well and the press jumped on him. There was some confusion at first, I grant you that 100%.

OTBC

Yes, this is my understanding.   Of course doing nothing was discussed, all options would have been but there was never a plan to do nothing

If you want boris tone the devil incarnate then you'll find the evidence 

If you want him to be a latter day florence nightingale I guess the same applies.

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1 minute ago, kick it off said:

Yes he should have listened to the experts - the ones in every other country in the ****ing world that were saying something different. The WHO which has the best medical scientists in the world. He listened to the anamolous advice because it suited what he wanted to hear, instead of listening to the consensus advice from 99% of scientists.

It is a simple problem though isn't it. Stay at home, save lives.... do you think Boris has done enough in that regard?

It's not party political in any way. I would criticise anybody of any political colour who had responded to this crisis in the way Boris has, he's been pathetic, spineless and dithered around with vague announcements and some which defied logic. For example, pubs should have shut an hour after he announced it, not the next day. All it did was encourage people to go to the boozer for a last **** up - that kind of incompetence is unforgivable.

Yes, but we generally over-rely on simplified modelling of chaotic systems, which can often lead to the wrong answer. My point is that Johnson was following the UK's expert advice.

Do you really think the problem will be solved by people staying at home for a few weeks? Or are you suggesting that people should basically stay at home for however long it takes a vaccine to be developed? What impact do you think that is going to have on people economically, and therefore their own ability to provide themselves and their families the bare essentials?  Do you really think people like Vallance, Whitty, and Imperial College London really don't have any common sense and weren't aware of these simple facts?

It will be interesting to keep an eye on what happens to other countries who are ahead of the curve and have strictly quarantined when people start to return to normality.

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1 minute ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Thanks for your reply.

Boris/the UK hasn't stopped testing - they changed the focus to hospitals and GP surgeries.

I do completely agree that testing should be increased - as you correctly state, South Korea's main weapon has been an excellent testing system. I have to admit to being concerned that our numbers in relation to testing haven't increased in the last few days - they went up to over 8000 one day and then have stuck around 5000. I would have hoped we would have topped 10,000 a day by now. Not sure what the issue is - this the kind of question the press need to be asking.

OTBC

But not frontline NHS workers or other key workers who may currently be spreading it en masse?

We had weeks to organise testing. Weeks. Boris dithered. Boris promised 25,000 tests per day a week ago, but as you say, numbers haven't risen. 

This is exactly why I feel he has been **** poor. We had every opportunity to provide a robust response to this disease and minimise deaths, but Boris dithered under the illusion that getting loads of people infected all at once was a solution.

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6 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Yes he should have listened to the experts - the ones in every other country in the ****ing world that were saying something different. The WHO which has the best medical scientists in the world. He listened to the anamolous advice because it suited what he wanted to hear, instead of listening to the consensus advice from 99% of scientists.

It is a simple problem though isn't it. Stay at home, save lives.... do you think Boris has done enough in that regard?

It's not party political in any way. I would criticise anybody of any political colour who had responded to this crisis in the way Boris has, he's been pathetic, spineless and dithered around with vague announcements and some which defied logic. For example, pubs should have shut an hour after he announced it, not the next day. All it did was encourage people to go to the boozer for a last **** up - that kind of incompetence is unforgivable.

Who's this Boris you talk of?.....It's the first time you've mentioned him......

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3 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Why mention the Guardian, as if that automatically renders something null? 

Because the Guardian have an agenda, as most papers do, and they have been banging on about herd immunity more than most. I still read it, and enjoy a lot of the content, but am aware of their 'leanings'.

5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

A new report issued by a group of experts advising the UK government offers a blistering assessment of the country’s previous “herd immunity” approach to coronavirus, suggesting that as many as 250,000 people could die as a result—and that it would do little to stop health-care facilities from being overwhelmed. 

Like I said, it wasn't government strategy. If it was, I'm sure it will be easy to find something about it on the government website along with the rest of the documents outlining the actions/strategies they have undertaken. I have to admit to not looking myself, but let me know if you find it and I'll happily admit to getting it wrong.

OTBC

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