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35 minutes ago, T said:

I get you don’t like me or my style so there is no need to repeat it ad nauseum but I’m interested in the substance and you have nothing of interest or  substance to say. I’ve said numerous times that I obviously don’t get to watch football live and I’m just a football punter with no football expertise and I’ve no doubt lots of people know more about football than I do so I’ve nothing of substance to add. This is a coronavirus thread. It is the hot topic of today and many a day. People can easily ignore it and me so I don’t understand your obsession.
 

The UK has done appalling compared to Germany and of course I follow what is happening on a daily basis and I’m exasperated by what i see happening in the UK on a daily basis and that people ignore experts and think they know better.  I want better for the UK but others hate the comparison and would rather  pit their heads head in the sand.

 

 I think people should be concerned with the substance of that but clearly you are more bothered about the style. The UK has some fundament issues to address and it won’t learn  if it attacks the style and ignores the substance. Substance is more important than form and I’m afraid you and Boris and the UK government is more concerned with style rather than substance which is a real problem which is costing lives and jobs. 

 No I like your style and was just asking some questions to try and understand that style a little bit. Nothing is being repeated othar than asking who the racists are on here. 

Football didn't come up between us on here. Why bring that up? Other than to take the high ground. 

No issues with the Germany comparison,thats interesting but it's always followed by stating UK people are fat and racist. 

I haven't given any indication that I would rather style over substance. Where did you get that from? You made that up. 

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2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Good call!

Yet I now feel guilty in that I responded this very morning. Of all things about fishing! (Not Corky type fishing but the quotas kind). I had seen a TV piece and replied.

But having said that, in finding a link to that media story I found an amazing article detailing in great depth just how the fishing industry in this country has declined. So, not a waste of time🙂

Every cloud!👍

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43 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That's a fair point in some ways although I would like to think (perhaps naively) that we aspire to higher standards than the average football fan (never mind some of the worst) so I don't find the 'well we're not as bad as them argument' all that convincing.

Its a bit like @Mark .Y. desperately trying to construct a defence of this government's handling of the virus crisis by suggesting that our performance maybe wasn't quite as bad as Italy or Spain.

We would normally compare this country's performance to Germany, France or perhaps Holland and the Nordic countries, i.e. other fairly similar European countries. Frankly if you tried to convince most people that we have a competent government because we are doing slightly better than Italy and Spain then they would assume (quite rightly) that you were taking the p1ss!

No, thats not true.

I was not trying to convince anybody we had a competent government at all. I was making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken.

I'm pretty certain if you go through all my posts on this thread you will find very little that praises the Government's handling of this crisis.

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On 14/05/2020 at 18:55, Mark .Y. said:

I am not in any way saying that the total number of deaths in the UK is anything but appalling......... but this is off the BBC website, and assuming it is true, shows that Italy does not include deaths in care homes in it's figures. I know from reading lots about Spain (including on Spanish websites) that there has been a problem including the care home deaths there too and that the total is much higher than admitted to. I think it likely shows that the UK does not genuinely have the worst death rate in Europe - Italy and Spain are likely to be worse (puts tin hat on 🙂).

Italy reports 262 new deaths - highest in a week

Some news from Italy, where 262 coronavirus-related deaths have been reported in the past 24 hours. It's the highest daily tally since 7 May.

This brings the country's overall death toll to 31,368 - the third-highest in the world behind only the US and the UK. However every country counts deaths differently and in Italy there is no national figure for those that occur in care homes. The UK's total now includes deaths across all settings.

Italy started easing lockdown restrictions on 4 May, with people now being allowed to visit their relatives in small numbers. Parks, factories and building sites are being reopened.

 

Here is my quote you refer to CM...........note that there is no defence of the Government's handling of this as you suggested. Note also the use of the word "apalling" to describe the deaths in the UK.

As I pointed out, it simply may be untrue to claim (as many on here have) that the UK has the worst death rate in Europe.

I thought at the time that it might attract a bit of flak and discussion - didn't expect it to be deliberately lied about.

Edited by Mark .Y.

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39 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

Here is my quote you refer to CM...........note that there is no defence of the Government's handling of this as you suggested. Note also the use of the word "apalling" to describe the deaths in the UK.

As I pointed out, it simply may be untrue to claim (as many on here have) that the UK has the worst death rate in Europe.

I thought at the time that it might attract a bit of flak and discussion - didn't expect it to be deliberately lied about.

The UK's government figures put the total number of deaths at a figure that is the highest in Europe. This figure is only for those that die having a positive diagonosis/test. The UK's excess death figures are significantly higher than this. The probale explanation is that excess deaths include those not diagnosed (e.g. they died at home) and those caused indirectly by the virus or the confusion caused by the virus. However you put it, the death toll in the UK (and possibly England on its own) is likely to be the highest in Europe.

image.thumb.png.466fc09a89b5c701fd78bb322752309e.png

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I saw that earlier and my main concern is why are there are so many unprotected police there? It doesn't make any sense.

The Express website rather confusingly reports that there are 'huge crowds', of 'hundreds' protesting in Hyde Park, containing 'about three dozen' people protesting. Sunder Katwala.

Edited by Herman

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

The UK's government figures put the total number of deaths at a figure that is the highest in Europe. This figure is only for those that die having a positive diagonosis/test. The UK's excess death figures are significantly higher than this. The probale explanation is that excess deaths include those not diagnosed (e.g. they died at home) and those caused indirectly by the virus or the confusion caused by the virus. However you put it, the death toll in the UK (and possibly England on its own) is likely to be the highest in Europe.

image.thumb.png.466fc09a89b5c701fd78bb322752309e.png

I don't mind a reasonable debate about it, that is fine, I objected to the lie that I had made some defence of the UK Government, when quite clearly I had not.

So, do we know how many people have died in Italian or Spanish care homes ?

I'm not bothered about the figures the UK Government puts out or what hte UK Government says, as I have previously said - their communication skills are breathtakingly low. I would just like to see an official figure from both Spain and Italy so we can see for ourselves.

Also, my understanding is that Covid-19 is listed as the cause of death when it is present - whether or not it is the actual cause itself. Is that your understanding too ?   

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Should we take seriously a man that can't plan and write a sign properly?😀

Image

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8 minutes ago, Herman said:

Should we take seriously a man that can't plan and write a sign properly?😀

Image

You are number 6. But who is the new number 2

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49 minutes ago, ricardo said:

You are number 6. But who is the new number 2

image.jpeg.0b8f091685373c2264dc50f21ef31d36.jpeg
 
Should have a few of these chasing the protesters around Hyde Park......

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Well people believe Boris and Gove and Farage so yes people do believe numpties. The biggest supporters of this nonsense are the hard right which is somewhat strange as it is the old and unfit who are at greatest risk. 

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9 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

Another 468 deaths, this is NOT going away anytime soon

Ok. So what do you suggest? 

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55 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:
image.jpeg.0b8f091685373c2264dc50f21ef31d36.jpeg
 
Should have a few of these chasing the protesters around Hyde Park......

I loved "The Prisoner", wierd stuff but a great series.

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48 minutes ago, T said:

Well people believe Boris and Gove and Farage so yes people do believe numpties. The biggest supporters of this nonsense are the hard right which is somewhat strange as it is the old and unfit who are at greatest risk. 

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53 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Ok. So what do you suggest? 

Start telling the truth (and not only on this subject) Get the PM to face the British people and explain where we are, admit mistakes were made, and roll out a plan - which says we have very vulnerable people we need to protect, and a much younger, healthier population we can ask to go back to work and school etc. And then fire some of the incompetent loyalist agitators from his team. I.e. show some leadership and get the UK population behind his government, because he is going to lose any political battle he may be tempted to wage against Labour and or the EU. Not that I care about what happens to him if he does do that, but I do care about the ongoing damage to the UK if he does.

Edited by Surfer
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15 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Start telling the truth (and not only on this subject) Get the PM to face the British people and explain where we are, admit mistakes were made, and roll out a plan - which says we have very vulnerable people we need to protect, and a much younger, healthier population we can ask to go back to work and school etc. And then fire some of the incompetent loyalist agitators from his team. I.e. show some leadership and get the UK population behind his government, because he is going to lose any political battle he may be tempted to wage against Labour and or the EU. Not that I care about what happens to him if he does do that, but I do care about the ongoing damage to the UK if he does.

Which bit of that will make it go away ‘any time soon’?

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44 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I loved "The Prisoner", wierd stuff but a great series.

Yes, it was, and a great advert for Portmerion, but he didn't really know how to end it. So the last episode is a bit of a mess.

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6 hours ago, sonyc said:

Good call!

Yet I now feel guilty in that I responded this very morning. Of all things about fishing! (Not Corky type fishing but the quotas kind). I had seen a TV piece and replied.

But having said that, in finding a link to that media story I found an amazing article detailing in great depth just how the fishing industry in this country has declined. So, not a waste of time🙂

My type of  Fishing is called Angling.  

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An explanation/update

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-children-kawasaki-disease-symptoms-scarlet-fever-heart-attack-france-a9518271.htm

16th May

" The existing Kawasaki disease leads to an inflammatory response in the body’s immune system causing blood vessels to swell. Symptoms include a fever, rash, red eyes and lips and redness on the palms and soles of the feet.

About 125 children in France, up to 100 in the UK and at least 100 in New York have developed Kawasaki-like symptoms during the coronavirus outbreak, arousing suspicions of a link   ''

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3 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

No, thats not true.

I was not trying to convince anybody we had a competent government at all. I was making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken.

I'm pretty certain if you go through all my posts on this thread you will find very little that praises the Government's handling of this crisis.

As usual you refute a point I didn't make and avoid any discussion about the substantive points I did make.

I'm pretty sure you have a firm grasp of the English language and therefore have a clear understanding of the difference in meaning between the verbs to praise and to defend, so you can also take it as read that I take offence at your subsequent accusation of lying.

Throughout this thread you have frequently either explicitly or implicitly (as in this particular case) defended the government by being very dismissive of facts, reports, projections and even opinions which opposed or criticised the official line, and whilst I'm not going to descend to childish name calling I'm afraid that I don't find your statement that you were simply 'making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken' remotely credible, for several reasons.

It has been abundantly clear for many weeks, and much commented on throughout by experts, pundits and posters that there are inaccuracies, incompleteness, and differing standards in the data being published all over the world, including in the UK. I recall certainly one, and I think, two occasions where I challenged some of your assumptions with what I believe were quite detailed and reasonable observations passed on from people on the front line which you simply dismissed without any discussion beyond you preferring to trust in official statistics rather than real life experience. That, I think, is a prettty fair summary, albeit a generalisation, of your position throughout the last couple of months, right up to the point (long predicted by independent experts) where the UK reached the highest death toll in Europe at which point you suddenly decided that official statistics maybe weren't telling the whole story - they certainly weren't telling the story you wanted to hear anyway, and I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out that your response bears an uncanny resemblance to the government's behaviour, in giving us a daily presentation with a comparison chart that had been on going for almost two months before they decided it was actually premature (??!!) to be making comparisions. Of course the fact that the chart was sending out the opposite message to the one they have been trying to deliver for the last two months wasn't a factor in the decision to stop them at all  😂😂

Whilst I often disagree with your posts I have no real problem with them, per se, but I have a real problem in that any response to them that is critical, dissenting or proposing perhaps an alternative views seems to be interpreted as a personal and/or politically driven attack. Your standard response appears to be find some minor point/misconstrue something/simply make up a point that wasn't ever made, and get greatly offended by it. So offended it appears, that you completely forget to respond to any serioud or substantive issues. If it was a one off then I would shrug my shoulders but this has become a regular feature of your reponses to the extent that, whether you have noticed it or not, I've stopped responding to your posts as it has become clear that it is a complete waste of time since you clearly have no intention of actually debating any of the issues you raise.

In fact, tempting though it was, I didn't even bother to reply directly to your Italian post which by your own admission you expected to draw flak but unfortunately I made the beginner's mistake of referring to it in a response to @sonyc . The context of my post was that I didn't find the 'well we're not as bad as them argument' all that convincing and the responses to that post were very instructive.

@sonyc, as usual, wrote a gracious and informative clarification of the original post which made complete sense.

You, as usual, double downed on being offended, refuted a point that I didn't make and didn't go anywhere near the underlying issue.

So hopefully I won't repeat that mistake but I think I'll take out the insurance policy of blocking you, for no other reason that I'm cross with myself for wasting so much time trying to discuss serious issues with someone who clearly doesn't have any intention entering real discussion or debate.

So cheerio @Mark .Y., I very much hope that you come through this crisis OK and don't suffer any consequences as a result of your refusal, or inability, to engage with the reality of what is surrounding us all at the moment.

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6 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

I don't mind a reasonable debate about it, that is fine, I objected to the lie that I had made some defence of the UK Government, when quite clearly I had not.

So, do we know how many people have died in Italian or Spanish care homes ?

I'm not bothered about the figures the UK Government puts out or what hte UK Government says, as I have previously said - their communication skills are breathtakingly low. I would just like to see an official figure from both Spain and Italy so we can see for ourselves.

Also, my understanding is that Covid-19 is listed as the cause of death when it is present - whether or not it is the actual cause itself. Is that your understanding too ?   

The thing is the excess death figure in the UK is higher than any other nation in Europe. Any nit picking about data from other countries is clearly appeasing the government line. The figures are clear, see below (again)

 

 

image.png.1c58bf9986b30eda8618b2a441c17b90.png

 

 

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Meanwhile it looks like confidence in the government has collapsed since Johnson's TV address........

image.png.14d17e925814de8751f60a3536bb8928.png

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31 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

So hopefully I won't repeat that mistake but I think I'll take out the insurance policy of blocking you, for no other reason that I'm cross with myself for wasting so much time trying to discuss serious issues with someone who clearly doesn't have any intention entering real discussion or debate.

So cheerio @Mark .Y., I very much hope that you come through this crisis OK and don't suffer any consequences as a result of your refusal, or inability, to engage with the reality of what is surrounding us all at the moment.

Why block Mark Y? For sure he isn't as keen to thrown blame around as some and does provide challenge but isnt that a good thing?

If the moderates (and Mark Y is for sure a moderate) are edged out of  theconversation thrn this thread will become a pointless clone of the brexit one and  no one needs that.

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So, to move away from politics....

Anyone with kids (of the right age before you start!) looking to send them back to school. Even of you dont, why would you/why wouldn't you?

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