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8 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Ah the bash the west coast liberals argument. Inequality in America has been a characteristic since its founding. It still is, and can be found in every state. So you are not wrong to say it exists but the answer does not lie in pointing fingers at the “coastal elites” - go ask the descendants of slaves in the American South about social or financial equality. 

Want to propose a policy to fix this? Because unless you do it is not going to go away.....

Why the extreme reaction to this? It’s just an extreme example of social inequality. I could say the same thing as London with Russian and Far East billionaires buying property en-masse and inflating house prices while Londoners are pressured out of their city or gentrification in Brooklyn or any number of examples. I just happen to believe you won’t find a more stark example of this social gap than movie stars and tech billionaires living alongside homeless people in the grips of an opioid epidemic that isn’t being addressed at all by the government there.

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

Yes, but the world is a different place now, The Bubonic plague did such damage because they did not know how to treat it.

We don’t know how to treat coronavirus.

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3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think you'll find that poverty still very much exists, last month I donated a microwave to somebody who has no means of heating food and they sleep on a mattress on the floor.

That doesn't change the fact that I think that disposable fashion has gone too far, people who aren't in abject poverty seem not to care about planned obsolescence either. They don't care that their Apple phone will seize to function in a few years, because they sign up to getting upgrades every 2 years. 

We consume too much unnecessarily and you haven't put up an argument against that. 

I didn’t realise I was supposed to be putting up an argument against it.
 

My only point was that not everybody can just replace cheap disposable fashion with more expensive items, as you suggested should happen. Those same cheap disposable things have increased the quality of life for a lot of people, who would previously have had to make do without, so I wouldn’t be so quick to discard them.

 

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Government scientist brushes past the fact that the number of new cases has risen, referring to the increase in testing as the reason. But surely that means there are more people today than yesterday who have it to our knowledge and have the chance of spreading it or increasing the R0.

How can they consider any easing of the lockdown? Clearly, if we have been in isolation for 6 weeks, the virus is still spreading. I wonder how many cases have occurred from visits to the supermarket?

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5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Government scientist brushes past the fact that the number of new cases has risen, referring to the increase in testing as the reason. But surely that means there are more people today than yesterday who have it to our knowledge and have the chance of spreading it or increasing the R0.

How can they consider any easing of the lockdown? Clearly, if we have been in isolation for 6 weeks, the virus is still spreading. I wonder how many cases have occurred from visits to the supermarket?

We have been in lockdown for 6 weeks

but we haven’t been in lockdown for 6 weeks

I honestly believe we are psychologically, as a country, unable to do a “lockdown” in the way a lot of other countrys have.

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I honestly believe we are psychologically, as a country, unable to do a “lockdown” in the way a lot of other countrys have.

I have always mentored that idea. Apart from the economy, which is quite natural as our business is closed also, there is no reason to ease anything. If people follow the guidelines, there are opportunities for exercise and fresh air.

As someone questioned the minister during the briefing, why does sport seem to be taking preference?

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5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I honestly believe we are psychologically, as a country, unable to do a “lockdown” in the way a lot of other countrys have.

I have always mentored that idea. Apart from the economy, which is quite natural as our business is closed also, there is no reason to ease anything. If people follow the guidelines, there are opportunities for exercise and fresh air.

As someone questioned the minister during the briefing, why does sport seem to be taking preference?

💰 

Edited by The Real Buh

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1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

Why the extreme reaction to this? It’s just an extreme example of social inequality. I could say the same thing as London with Russian and Far East billionaires buying property en-masse and inflating house prices while Londoners are pressured out of their city or gentrification in Brooklyn or any number of examples. I just happen to believe you won’t find a more stark example of this social gap than movie stars and tech billionaires living alongside homeless people in the grips of an opioid epidemic that isn’t being addressed at all by the government there.

Because it was the usual pile on. And if you want to drag opioid addition into it, the statistics do not back you up. The biggest issue is in the de-industrialized Mid-West and North East. Closing mines, mills and factories leaves people vulnerable. So it's trade, finance and industrial policy at fault here. 

We are likely to see a similar pattern for CoronaVirus deaths to Opioid deaths because the healthcare infrastructure has decayed along with those states economies, plus poor health of the population.

This abject failure is why these "battleground states" are so ripe for extremist politicians to exploit the situation, when people give up hope they look for someone to blame and will follow a demagogue. 

Edited by Surfer

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6 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Because it was the usual pile on. And if you want to drag opioid addition into it, the statistics do not back you up. The biggest issue is in the de-industrialized Mid-West and North East. Closing mines, mills and factories leaves people vulnerable. So it's trade, finance and industrial policy at fault here. 

We are likely to see a similar pattern for CoronaVirus deaths to Opioid deaths because the healthcare infrastructure has decayed along with those states economies, plus poor health of the population.

This abject failure is why these "battleground states" are so ripe for extremist politicians to exploit the situation, when people give up hope they look for someone to blame and will follow a demagogue. 

I mean, I could link a million stories about how it’s a massive problem, but check this one out

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/15/san-francisco-homeless-coronavirus-msc-shelter

92 unavoidable coronavirus cases in a sam Francisco homeless shelter, or maybe check this one out

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/san-francisco-coronavirus-homeless-shelter

Thousands of homeless people can’t be housed in hotels in San Francisco, as they are being in the UK, while the hotel rooms are empty because they don’t want homeless people soiling them up.

San Fransisco is an inconvenient truth For the left I’m afraid. A bit like Venezuela. Both sides of political ideology are capable of messing things up, the 20th century more than proved that. I’d really love it if we could move to something better for the human race I really do.

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Government scientist brushes past the fact that the number of new cases has risen, referring to the increase in testing as the reason. But surely that means there are more people today than yesterday who have it to our knowledge and have the chance of spreading it or increasing the R0.

I think the number of people with the virus is falling every day as the  number recovering is likely to greatly exceed those catching it.

The peak for positive results in england was around 4500 about a month ago. The number of positive results today will probably come in quite a bit under 2000 by the time all the results are counted.

The fall is going to be even more dramatic when you consider that a month ago we were probably capturing only a tiny amount of the true result whereas now the proportion is likely to be much higher

Reasons for optimism but as you say it's still in circulation and could go up again.

 

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

I didn’t realise I was supposed to be putting up an argument against it.
 

My only point was that not everybody can just replace cheap disposable fashion with more expensive items, as you suggested should happen. Those same cheap disposable things have increased the quality of life for a lot of people, who would previously have had to make do without, so I wouldn’t be so quick to discard them.

I wasn't advocating making Primark illegal, just trying to point out that rampant consumerism has got out of control. 

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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

I wasn't advocating making Primark illegal, just trying to point out that rampant consumerism has got out of control. 

You are correct and it’s specifically at the top end. People don’t buy stuff to last, we have been coerced into a disposable culture. Thing is, we aren’t nearly as bad as other countries I’ve witnessed first hand. Unsurprisingly the USA is obviously number 1 on that list. 

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I think the number of people with the virus is falling every day as the  number recovering is likely to greatly exceed those catching it.

The peak for positive results in england was around 4500 about a month ago. The number of positive results today will probably come in quite a bit under 2000 by the time all the results are counted.

The fall is going to be even more dramatic when you consider that a month ago we were probably capturing only a tiny amount of the true result whereas now the proportion is likely to be much higher

Reasons for optimism but as you say it's still in circulation and could go up again.

Are we looking at the wrong graphs? The ones today showed well over 6000 new positive tests. Doesn't that mean over 6000 chances of further infection?

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2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Government scientist brushes past the fact that the number of new cases has risen, referring to the increase in testing as the reason. But surely that means there are more people today than yesterday who have it to our knowledge and have the chance of spreading it or increasing the R0.

How can they consider any easing of the lockdown? Clearly, if we have been in isolation for 6 weeks, the virus is still spreading. I wonder how many cases have occurred from visits to the supermarket?

Because if the testing increases obviously we will find more people who have had it. If we had been testing at the same level a month ago then you might see that the numbers have gone down. Likewise, if we just hadn’t bothered increasing the testing, the number of new infections wouldn’t have risen because we wouldn’t know about them.

The easing of lockdown needs to be based on how many people are being hospitalised/dying.
 

People catching it is a good thing if they don’t need to go to hospital/don’t die from it. 

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22 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think the number of people with the virus is falling every day as the  number recovering is likely to greatly exceed those catching it.

The peak for positive results in england was around 4500 about a month ago. The number of positive results today will probably come in quite a bit under 2000 by the time all the results are counted.

The fall is going to be even more dramatic when you consider that a month ago we were probably capturing only a tiny amount of the true result whereas now the proportion is likely to be much higher

Reasons for optimism but as you say it's still in circulation and could go up again.

Are we looking at the wrong graphs? The ones today showed well over 6000 new positive tests. Doesn't that mean over 6000 chances of further infection?

the government briefings have number of positives by date reported but this figure will include tests taken days ago.

You can see  stats for english regions at https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/?_ga=2.188118575.629863727.1588109361-498089359.1579339886 and you can sort by specimen date. Much more reassuring!

 

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1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

San Fransisco is an inconvenient truth For the left I’m afraid. A bit like Venezuela. Both sides of political ideology are capable of messing things up, the 20th century more than proved that. I’d really love it if we could move to something better for the human race I really do.

Yeah right ... Of course the San Francisco Bay Area has inequality, that happens when the country has a pathetic minimum wage and unrestricted executive compensation.

But inequality is not restricted to "liberal areas" you will see it in almost every US city. As for opioid addition, this chart tells the real story - its a Mid West problem in the main, the same region of the country that Republican led congresses have allowed to de-industrialize because of their focus on "business friendly" tax and trade policies.  

Here is official CDC data - just look it up... now given the President has been in charge  for the past three years why has he not done anything about this? Other than say that he would and then point fingers at everyone else. 

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/statedeaths/drug-overdose-death-2017.html

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6000 today but two thirds are now pillar two which means outside hospitals and primarily key workers, most of whom I assume work in environments where they have been exposed or have symptoms prompting them to take a test.

so in terms of general community transmission the numbers testing positive have dropped quite a bit to around 2000 a day but I would tend to agree 6000 positives in a day does not scream “relax the lockdown” to me. 

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Sorry by that I mean general public transmission amongst those of us locked down. 

I believe there is a community testing survey underway, I wonder if the Government are expecting some results from that before making the announcement on Sunday.

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17 minutes ago, sonyc said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-norwich-death-rates-ons-lowest-highest-a9500106.html

Felt I should post this on this thread as it's a positive story about the virus and the fine city. Quite a revealing read.

You can get the numbers by post code now, Kings Lynn seems to be a bit of a hot spot for Norfolk, but from memory data is to 17 April

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King's Lynn is a hotspot due to being a regional hospital hence a catchment area beyond the town.

We need to be at 3000 new infections per day to achieve R 0.6.

 

I really want there to be millions of unknown infections here but the evidence doesn't support my view on this.

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Are the tests that are currently being done/sent out to people to do tests which ascertain whether you’ve ever had it, or just currently got it?

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Back to the excess deaths portion of the discussion. The latest version of the FT report that Ricardo referenced earlier is out. 

This now show the UK has the most excess deaths and the % that that represents is higher than any other major country.

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Remarkable recovery for spain. Let's hope we follow the same path.  Italy calculations  seem to have changed, presumably to give a better reflection of the national picture.

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Excuse me if I appear stupid. A graph used during the briefing today showed over 6000 new infections. Whether some were last Friday or not doesn't to me appear to matter. I have been led to believe that if you had the virus, you could infect someone else.

I am not concerned about how good it is that you have it and are not going to die.

It concerns me that the daily infection rate in and outside hospital was as high as early April.

If I am wrong please correct me.

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25 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Excuse me if I appear stupid. A graph used during the briefing today showed over 6000 new infections. Whether some were last Friday or not doesn't to me appear to matter. I have been led to believe that if you had the virus, you could infect someone else.

I am not concerned about how good it is that you have it and are not going to die.

It concerns me that the daily infection rate in and outside hospital was as high as early April.

If I am wrong please correct me.

It's really hard to compare test result data as the regime now is so different to that before the lockdown but is you assume that everyone in hospital who needs a test gets one and always has then we are probably looking at new cases coming in at a similar rate to mid march.

The question isnt really can we eradicate this thing as we probably cant rather it's probably can we suppress it until we get a vaccine.

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3 hours ago, sonyc said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-norwich-death-rates-ons-lowest-highest-a9500106.html

Felt I should post this on this thread as it's a positive story about the virus and the fine city. Quite a revealing read.

Did you read the comments? Someone pointed out that given the site of the hospital, deaths would be registered in South Norfolk and not Norwich. I don't know whether this is true but it could explain Norwich's low numbers. 

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