Corona Virus main thread

[Herman 9,759]

36 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-right-that-cummings-sits-on-sage-committee-rwzpg3vzx

 

The blummin Righty’s are at it again lads!

The trouble is that  the people that told us that Johnson didn't need to be at the COBRA meetings during the time of national and international emergency are exactly the same that are now saying that Cummings should be in other very important meetings. 

It's yet another con job on the British public. 

[ricardo 7,385]

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

[The Real Buh 3,432]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

The trouble is that  the people that told us that Johnson didn't need to be at the COBRA meetings during the time of national and international emergency are exactly the same that are now saying that Cummings should be in other very important meetings. 

It's yet another con job on the British public. 

I like to get to root cause, it’s in my nature.

root cause here? Too many meetings.

[Herman 9,759]

3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

The boss should attend in a time of national emergency. It's quite simple. 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

7 minutes ago, ricardo said:

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

The Dominic Cummings thing amuses me. His opponents can’t seem to help falling into his trap. Making him this “boogieman” is exactly what he wants. It’s a massive diversionary tactic. “Look at Cummings, look at what he’s up to now, look he’s being a righty doing righty things” 

It reminds me of parents jangling let’s to distract a crying baby

i have no problem with non-scientific government staff sitting in on scientific meetings, at the end of the day political decisions will have to be made on scientific facts. As long as they keep quiet and don’t advocate injecting bleach then I don’t see the massive issue.

[TIL 1010 4,743]

23 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I did realise you were talking about Billo, I just made a connection between Maypole dancing and Morris Dancing, maybe they ( City1st and Waveney, as you call them) have decided to Dance the Mayday in together, quite a sight I imagine.😉 

I could have been clearer, yes.

Could they be the same poster using multiple accounts i wonder ?

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Could they be the same poster using multiple accounts i wonder ?

Don't you start!😀 Though having met neither, I cant imagine someone with Jobbos reputation for being a tad  bulky would have Bill/Ben/City 1st s level of nervous energy. ...the two things just arent compatible.

Edited May 1, 2020 by wcorkcanary

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

I think the boss (Cummins) was at every meeting?

[Crafty Canary 495]

I see on the news that German doctors are posting nude photographs of themselves to highlight shortages of PPE. How can this be? Surely it’s only those incompetent Tories that have problems supplying PPE. 

[ricardo 7,385]

16 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

I think the boss (Cummins) was at every meeting?

So nothing to moan about then😉

[Herman 9,759]

25 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

So if the boss doesn't attend he shouldn't send a deputy?

I think the boss (Cummins) was at every meeting?

It does seem that the British do like the country being run by unelected bureaucrats after all. 

[Yellow Fever 3,782]

13 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I see on the news that German doctors are posting nude photographs of themselves to highlight shortages of PPE. How can this be? Surely it’s only those incompetent Tories that have problems supplying PPE. 

Crafty - that's called 'Whataboutery'.

All countries have issues and none are above criticism - even S.Korea or indeed Singapore let alone Germany, Italy, France etc.. 

The issue is what did OUR government do - and what warning did it have and what steps were taken when.

It was clearly late in locking down and extremely slow with testing, indeed abandoned its early track and trace strategy to widespread bemusement -  but which it has thankfully now been embarrassed enough to restart.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Yellow Fever

[Barbe bleu 824]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 but which it has thankfully now been embarrassed enough to restart.

 The track, trace isloate phase was abandoned as the disease had progressed past the stage at which it could possibly be contained.  

I dont think bandoning the trace/contain phase was irrational at all.  I wonder though if it would have been possible to give up in most of England for hopelessness but continue attempts in less dense and less affected areas ahead of lockdown. 

If trace/isolate restarted it will be restarted at a point where the infrastructure can deal with the expected level of demand.  Until then less precise measures (like lockdown) will be in place (although in reality the two types of measure will likely cross-over)

[Van wink 2,994]

Edit

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Van wink
Edit

[TIL 1010 4,743]

34 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I see on the news that German doctors are posting nude photographs of themselves to highlight shortages of PPE. How can this be? Surely it’s only those incompetent Tories that have problems supplying PPE. 

Obviously Merkel dodged some meetings Crafty.

[Yellow Fever 3,782]

1 minute ago, Barbe bleu said:

 The track, trace isloate phase was abandoned as the disease had progressed past the stage at which it could possibly be contained.  

That's the clue BB - they lost control early on by inaction - dithering and delay ! They weren't prepared!

I actually merged two points later - they abandoned community testing (lack of resources ?) - and have now been embarrassed to power up testing in the numbers needed !

[T 190]

33 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Crafty - that's called 'Whataboutery'.

All countries have issues and none are above criticism - even S.Korea or indeed Singapore let alone Germany, Italy, France etc.. 

The issue is what did OUR government do - and what warning did it have and what steps were taken when.

It was clearly late in locking down and extremely slow with testing, indeed abandoned its early track and trace strategy to widespread bemusement -  but which it has thankfully now been embarrassed enough to restart.

Im afraid it is indeed classic hard right dishonest shameful whataboutery to deflect and deny from the tragic consequences of the policies that they supported. It really is appalling the depths to which they will sink.
 

The German doctors in question are general paracrioners not hospital doctors   There are no Reports of shortages in frontline workers as in the UK   Germany is using its internal manufacturing capabilities to expand capacity  eg BMW has a PPE production line and community masks are being given to workers generally in the population  

The hard right are desperately trying to deny and deflect that 26k people have died in U.K. to 6k in Germany as a result of the policies that they support. That is the bottom line and it is utterly shameful and disrespectful to those that have died and front line workers that they use disinformation to deflect and deny their complicitness in policies focused on nationalism and austerity rather than healthcare. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by T

[Bagster 101]

I wonder if the hard right are doing the same in Italy, Spain and France?

The problem is , we can't all be Deutschland.

So many knowledgeable virologists on here, it's amazing!!

So many unknowns and variables that making comparisons right now is pretty much impossible, but crack on.

 

[T 190]

And as if to prove the point. Deflect and deny. Deflect and deny Deflect and deny. When what should have been happening is prepare, track, trace and isolate which the UK didn’t do because it ignored expert advice to prepare for nationalsim

 

The UK and German numbers are on a comparable basis only that Germany is performing more tests so capturing more of the deaths so U.K. is actually even worse more like 40k according to FT compared to 6k. So what do the hard right do. Deflect and deny ad nauseum. It is understandable because their views have been brutally exposed for the falsehoods they always were and they don’t have the intellectually or emotional skills to face up to reality. It is really important because as long as the UK seeks to deny and deflect it will not learn which is the most important point. The hard right will never learn but at least there are signs that the government realise their ideology fails abysmally when confronted by a crisis. 

[Yellow Fever 3,782]

7 minutes ago, Bagster said:

I wonder if the hard right are doing the same in Italy, Spain and France?

The problem is , we can't all be Deutschland.

So many knowledgeable virologists on here, it's amazing!!

So many unknowns and variables that making comparisons right now is pretty much impossible, but crack on.

 

First Bagster it's not a left right issue - never was.

To cut through the nonsense.

When they locked down the doubling rate was about every 3 to 4 days. Or to make life easy it quadrupled every week!

So of we'd of locked down a week earlier as many on here (left, right pro and anti-Brexit) and everywhere were calling for we'd have a quarter of the cases now and be in a much much better position for exiting the lockdown, testing, PPE, track and trace.

If we'd of done it two weeks earlier  it would of been 16 times less - ot at least an order of magnitude. Instead of 40,000+ deaths we'd have 4000+ and everything would of been so much easier. Less demand on PPE, hospitals and so on.

Yes I appreciate this is an oversimplification and you can poke holes in it (alternatively simply scale the graphs, the roll-over point back a week or two) but frankly the day the government choose to lock down was the last day it had any control. The script was written from that day forward. Auto-pilot ever since.

Why they delayed the lock down and allowed large events to continue they will have to answer for.

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, T said:

And as if to prove the point. Deflect and deny. Deflect and deny Deflect and deny. When what should have been happening is prepare, track, trace and isolate which the UK didn’t do because it ignored expert advice to prepare for nationalsim

 

The UK and German numbers are on a comparable basis only that Germany is performing more tests so capturing more of the deaths so U.K. is actually even worse more like 40k according to FT compared to 6k. So what do the hard right do. Deflect and deny ad nauseum. It is understandable because their views have been brutally exposed for the falsehoods they always were and they don’t have the intellectually or emotional skills to face up to reality. It is really important because as long as the UK seeks to deny and deflect it will not learn which is the most important point. The hard right will never learn but at least there are signs that the government realise their ideology fails abysmally when confronted by a crisis. 

When you say hard right - are you referring to Conservatives in general, or do you have a particular faction in mind?

I absolutely agree there seem to be serious failings in strategy to this point, but I I am not convinced this is down to Brexit as you say. Firstly, all the facts to make a meaningful comparison are not yet known (and I notice you agree with me on this), and some other countries, who are part of the EU and have not had the distraction of Brexit, have had terrible experiences and death rates as well. In addition, Sweden seem to have not locked down as severely yet do not seem to be as affected as us yet.

One thing we can agree on though, is that it is absolutely disgusting that there are those who seek to use this pandemic to make some sort of narrow political point, and stoke the polarisation and divisiveness that has returned to politics within the UK with a vengeance in the last few years.

[Bagster 101]

So can you not say the same for France then?

Why is it just the UK being compared?

Are they preparing for Nationalism too?

The UK have done more tests than France

The UK has busier airports than Germany

It's incomparable at this moment in time, if Germany has done well, then good on the Germans, maybe we can learn from them but this constant comparison with Germany followed by hard right this, hard right that!!

Boris Johnson is NOT hard right, he is not even close. 

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

First Bagster it's not a left right issue - never was.

To cut through the nonsense.

When they locked down the doubling rate was about every 3 to 4 days. Or to make life easy it quadrupled every week!

So of we'd of locked down a week earlier as many on here (left, right pro and anti-Brexit) and everywhere were calling for we'd have a quarter of the cases now and be in a much much better position for exiting the lockdown, testing, PPE, track and trace.

If we'd of done it two weeks earlier  it would of been 16 times less - ot at least an order of magnitude. Instead of 40,000+ deaths we'd have 4000+ and everything would of been so much easier. Less demand on PPE, hospitals and so on.

Yes I appreciate this is an oversimplification and you can poke holes in it (alternatively simply scale the graphs, the roll-over point back a week or two) but frankly the day the government choose to lock down was the last day it had any control. The script was written from that day forward. Auto-pilot ever since.

Why they delayed the lock down and allowed large events to continue they will have to answer for.

And I think this is an extremely reasonable, and very succinct post, that most people will agree with.

[Van wink 2,994]

"Embarrassed" into increased testing capability, possibly but unlikely imo. Test trace and isolate was always going to be the correct epidemiological process following lockdown. Credit to those involved in getting the numbers up, but a long way to go. No doubt imo that we did leave it too late to lockdown, absolutely a decision that the Government will have to be accountable for, along with everything else, in due course.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Van wink

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

39 minutes ago, Bagster said:

The problem is , we can't all be Deutschland

We had our chance 80 years ago .

 

Will I be accused of taliking to myself by Billo?

[T 190]

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

When you say hard right - are you referring to Conservatives in general, or do you have a particular faction in mind?

I absolutely agree there seem to be serious failings in strategy to this point, but I I am not convinced this is down to Brexit as you say. Firstly, all the facts to make a meaningful comparison are not yet known (and I notice you agree with me on this), and some other countries, who are part of the EU and have not had the distraction of Brexit, have had terrible experiences and death rates as well. In addition, Sweden seem to have not locked down as severely yet do not seem to be as affected as us yet.

One thing we can agree on though, is that it is absolutely disgusting that there are those who seek to use this pandemic to make some sort of narrow political point, and stoke the polarisation and divisiveness that has returned to politics within the UK with a vengeance in the last few years.

No I’ve no problem with mainstream conservative views whatsoever   I work in a very capitalist environment and see the good and bad in it first hand. My employer is being actually very good. Encouraging Working from home before and after strictly required  Arranging physical and mental heath Sessions Sending wellness packs and community masks. Do everything to avoid redundancies. Why because they are enlightened capitalists and know they will be judged long term on how they treat us and will need us next year. So I’m in favour of enlightened rather than sod you I’m all right capitalism. 
 

 The ironically named ERG which obviously does no research yes I have a problem with. Racism I have a problem with   I also have no problem with moderate labour   I have some sympathy with the views of the hard left just as if you actually read Marx at Uni it actually sounds quite reasonable in theory but of course not at all functional in the real world.  The UK has been unduly controlled with extremist views on both sides. I’ve no problem with the mainstream on both sides. In a more moderate functional democracy I struggle to know who to vote for because I’ve tested it and I agree with 80pc of the policies of the main parties  The UK is the other way round  

What we have on here is a small number of hard right nationalists extremists spreading hard line xenophobic and nationalistic views who frequent hard right extremist media. Those I have a problem. They are not conservatives in the true tradition who I sympathise with  

Brexit has been the UK focus for the last three years. Pandemic emergency planning was ignored to focus on Brexit emergency planning. The UK has performed poorly because it lack proper planning and stockpiles and surge capacity recommended by experts. Experts that should be and were ignored according to the hard right. UK is certainly not alone but they were underlying factors in the case of the UK which contributed to the UK being poorly prepared. 

[Crafty Canary 495]

48 minutes ago, T said:

Im afraid it is indeed classic hard right dishonest shameful whataboutery to deflect and deny from the tragic consequences of the policies that they supported. It really is appalling the depths to which they will sink.
 

The German doctors in question are general paracrioners not hospital doctors   There are no Reports of shortages in frontline workers as in the UK   Germany is using its internal manufacturing capabilities to expand capacity  eg BMW has a PPE production line and community masks are being given to workers generally in the population  

The hard right are desperately trying to deny and deflect that 26k people have died in U.K. to 6k in Germany as a result of the policies that they support. That is the bottom line and it is utterly shameful and disrespectful to those that have died and front line workers that they use disinformation to deflect and deny their complicitness in policies focused on nationalism and austerity rather than healthcare. 

How is it hard right to report something that is actually happening? I didn’t invent it and that it’s only GPs doesn't make it any less acceptable.

My post also doesn’t mention deaths so how you can describe it as disrespectful is so stupid as to be laughable. Of course each death is devastating for the families concerned and comparisons between countries is a difficult one although it is clear that Germany and South Korea have managed it very well. Once the pandemic is over analysis of excess deaths over the period of the epidemic in each country will give a much better view. To put the number of deaths, tragic as they are, in some perspective the deaths from cancer in the UK in 2016 was 163444 compared to around 30000 currently. This doesn’t mean the covid-19 deaths are less relevant but does highlight that conditions that are everyday ones do not  have such prominence in the public’s consciousness.

[Bagster 101]

Deutschland the "enlightened" capitalists!!

Now I've heard it all.

 

 

[Pugin 601]

4 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

To put the number of deaths, tragic as they are, in some perspective the deaths from cancer in the UK in 2016 was 163444 compared to around 30000 currently. This doesn’t mean the covid-19 deaths are less relevant but does highlight that conditions that are everyday ones do not  have such prominence in the public’s consciousness.

With respect, most cancer deaths are not avoidable. With coronavirus, every single death has been avoidable. 

[Barbe bleu 824]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

That's the clue BB - they lost control early on by inaction - dithering and delay ! They weren't prepared!

I actually merged two points later - they abandoned community testing (lack of resources ?) - and have now been embarrassed to power up testing in the numbers needed !

The execution of Trace, Track, isloate to my mind is the single most important reason we are looking at the figures we now are.  If we had got platinum rating on this we would be close to germany figures right now. Platinum plus and we we would be south korea 

Why we didn't succeed I have no idea and it's really not discussed much. 

What I can say though is that anyone that says its brexit or Boris or Blair or Corbyn or May though is just making it up unless they have evidence.