Corona Virus main thread

[Aggy 755]

59 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

The report does suggest some political interference in the science and I think that is far from ideal but if it led to the correct decision (and it's too early to say if it did) then its forgiven in my book. 

Wouldn’t be “forgiven” by me. As I’ve said - I’d have no problem if they chose to ignore SAGE and do what they want anyway. That’s the government’s prerogative. But if it turns out they have influenced a supposedly independent body to agree to the party line and then make out it was independent advice then it undermines trust in this government significantly. 

[Aggy 755]

Bbc reporting that the UN reckons half the global workforce, 1.5 billion people, could lose their livelihoods as a direct result of coronavirus and lockdowns.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes VW - It is my opinion (nobody else's) that the 'softer' behavioural scientists were more hesitant than the less subjectve ones. I think that was an error.

Think there is no doubt at all that it was an error - leaving aside that the behavioural modellers appeared to have a quite unjustifiable belief that the lockdown wouldn't be well observed, surely the real scientists on the committee would have explained that the sooner the lockdown was implemented then the shorter the duration required would be?

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Where does it say the scientists were dragging their heels - it actually says very little or almost nothing about the scientific view at the time. What it does say is that Cummings pushed for a clearer recommendation - dare I say policy decision to lockdown (as opposed probably to more of a set of options for ministers). Afterall he wanted political cover. 

The whole article is actually about Cummigs being a vocal and active member of Sage - not an observer as the government insisted.

We actually don't know what the scientific view of Sage, and the discussion was at all!

What we do know from the article is that Cummings 'pressed' the scientists to focus on the lockdown. Clearly you don't press anyone if they are of the same view as yourself, and Cummings wanted them to commit to a lockdown.

I understand that it tips on its head everything that has been thrown at the government regarding tardiness in initiating lockdown but now that we have the facts we can make better judgements on governmental performance.

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

What we do know from the article is that Cummings 'pressed' the scientists to focus on the lockdown. Clearly you don't press anyone if they are of the same view as yourself, and Cummings wanted them to commit to a lockdown.

I understand that it tips on its head everything that has been thrown at the government regarding tardiness in initiating lockdown but now that we have the facts we can make better judgements on governmental performance.

More nonsense.

If the final say was that of the government (which it was) then no 'pressing' would have been needed.

Advisors advise, governments govern.

Which merely underlines the dogged stupidity you and Ricardo keep bleating out

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Yes possibly, but it also challenges the govt line that they were "following the science" if they were actively trying to get the advice changed?

Advisors advise and ministers decide. That still holds true today. I haven't seen a single member of Sage threaten to resign over the way the government is listening to advice, which they would do if they were unhappy.

[Barbe bleu 823]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

You realise when Bill tiurns up you will be castigated as the duty Liar and your report will be scanned for spelling errors that may reveal you as an alternate log in for several other different posters don't you?

I'm going to crack and confess!

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

You realise when Bill tiurns up you will be castigated as the duty Liar and your report will be scanned for spelling errors that may reveal you as an alternate log in for several other different posters don't you?

oh dear, you are getting rather upset by all this

maybe it;s the revelation that your fellow rightys are only the one person - and that you have been had 😢

[Herman 9,756]

13 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

What we do know from the article is that Cummings 'pressed' the scientists to focus on the lockdown. Clearly you don't press anyone if they are of the same view as yourself, and Cummings wanted them to commit to a lockdown.

I understand that it tips on its head everything that has been thrown at the government regarding tardiness in initiating lockdown but now that we have the facts we can make better judgements on governmental performance.

Utter bollox. 

[ricardo 7,385]

7 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm going to crack and confess!

Very sensible, he will get you in the end.😂

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

3 hours ago, ricardo said:

Well this is quite patently incorrect isn't it

And in one stroke, all those conspiracy theories collapse. Now perhaps the adults can be left to manage this thing.

[Van wink 2,994]

29 minutes ago, Bill said:

No, that is yet another of your LIES

If you can post evidence where I have said that I will donate £100 to Pups - I won't ask you to donate a quid when you can't as at that rate you would soon be bankrupt

 

ps why is it that you, BB and RTB persistently lie ?

[Bill 1,788]

12 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Advisors advise and ministers decide. That still holds true today. I haven't seen a single member of Sage threaten to resign over the way the government is listening to advice, which they would do if they were unhappy.

it gets worse

threatening to resign would reveal who they are ..................😖

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

so NO evidence of me stating what you claimed

merely that you have once again twisted someone's words so as to try and refute your fabrication - not what they said

well at least I can thank you for clarifying my words about you being a liar

 

[TIL 1010 4,738]

Sigh

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Bill said:

so NO evidence of me stating what you claimed

merely that you have once again twisted someone's words so as to try and refute your fabrication - not what they said

well at least I can thank you for clarifying my words about you being a liar

 

God you're getting tedious.

Did someone say that there was a way to mute messages from specific people, if so let me know as all this ego inflating Bill nonsense is getting in the way of some good debate where people actually do debate rather than either being accused of lying or having multiple accounts or just simply that they are wrong because you say so.

[ricardo 7,385]

Just now, TIL 1010 said:

Sigh

Its a madhouse Tilly😂

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

41 minutes ago, Bill said:

No, that is yet another of your LIES

If you can post evidence where I have said that I will donate £100 to Pups - I won't ask you to donate a quid when you can't as at that rate you would soon be bankrupt

 

ps why is it that you, BB and RTB persistently lie ?

It should be obvious to everyone by now that we are one and the same person. You are not easy to fool, you know.

[sonyc 5,515]

Why do people just bait each other? We are all Norwich fans. Why criticise each other personally? It derails a decent thread. What about some kindness for a change. Or a quick apology and an acceptance and then just move on. 

It's not like we ever have to meet each other in real life! Or agree with each others politics. 

[TIL 1010 4,738]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its a madhouse Tilly😂

If you were looking for someone to start an argument in an empty phone box we have him on here ricardo.

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

God you're getting tedious.

Did someone say that there was a way to mute messages from specific people, if so let me know as all this ego inflating Bill nonsense is getting in the way of some good debate where people actually do debate rather than either being accused of lying or having multiple accounts or just simply that they are wrong because you say so.

oh dear

A blatant lie was posted - I refuted that by challenging the poster to provide evidence

I would suggest having the right to challenge lies is a fundamental part of debate

Whatever next, complain that the courts are stopped from doing their work by prosecutors hauling miscreants up before the judge 😂

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

27 minutes ago, Bill said:

More nonsense.

If the final say was that of the government (which it was) then no 'pressing' would have been needed.

Advisors advise, governments govern.

Which merely underlines the dogged stupidity you and Ricardo keep bleating out

Perhaps when the SAGE committee was meeting, it was not quite at the stage of 'Final Say'. More at the discussion phase.

I would have thought the output from SAGE would then go to the Politicos for the 'Final Say'. No?

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, TIL 1010 said:

If you were looking for someone to start an argument in an empty phone box we have him on here ricardo.

poor old plod

if I lied about you I would expect a response

is your response then akin to 'starting an argument' ?

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

Perhaps when the SAGE committee was meeting, it was not quite at the stage of 'Final Say'. More at the discussion phase.

I would have thought the output from SAGE would then go to the Politicos for the 'Final Say'. No?

you've just contradicted yourself

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 527]

4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Guess it depends what side of the bread you butter how you feel about the Government's performance. Personally, I think they have performed OK with the economy but you would expect them to. I think they have been at best muddled and worst incompetent about Health.

I don't know why everyone assumes the people who have been appointed ministers are fit for the job. Most of them were as inexperienced as any Labour politician would have been. Jokes (some people were nasty) about the competence of Abbott could be launched at Truss who is part of the new Government.

The economy will come round again. The banks are doing OK. While they couldn't answer my question of why I am supposed to pay for a car parking fee with Ringgo on my credit card because they were busy, they managed to send out letters quick enough to tell me my interest on savings has gone down to 0.10%. Not that I am bothered about interest rates (strange a Jew adopting Islamic ideals) as they are a tool of the greedy. And this guy Sunak looks nerdy and clued up enough.

But the health emergency has shown them up to be incompetent at running the civil service and rather more inclined to follow than lead. Hancock politely declines to accept any criticism or mistakes and is quite happy to use stats to help him climb out of the hole he keeps digging for himself.

The stats are important of course they are but there is much more to it than that. Every time the figures are published about deaths the cliche of thoughts and prayers are rolled out after swallowing the sincere pill.

I think most of us look at those figures and realise each one was a life, and some were just turning up for work in the NHS, each one had someone who would grieve for them and ultimately could be one of us.

To be honest these briefings are a waste of time. Looking at graphs might interest a few but for goodness sake they are people not numbers.

And no matter how you spin it, if they had relied on the science in the first place then we would have had more equipment in place and saved a lot more lives.

And Care Homes are where so many go in the twilight of their lives because their families can't be bothered to look after them and expect the state to. They are the forgotten people. They are the places very much staffed by migrant workers who have little experience with any illness let alone this virus, while the owners are charging a grand a week to their customers. No wonder older people go on long cruises. Its cheaper than a home and the food is better.

And they were totally ignored. They couldn't even be bothered to count them in the figures!

So its OK to look at biased newspapers and listen to those with self interest but at the end of the day political decisions are being made about the biggest crisis since WWII.

 

That's a very objectionable and inaccurate set of statements. It's something I would expect to hear was printed in The Daily Mail.

For many, and probably most, families moving an elderly relative into a Care Home is a very difficult decision to make, but it is the best decision they can make for the sake of the relative.

The average length of stay in a Care Home is 18 months and the majority of residents in Care Homes  have some form of dementia. As the Manager of my Mother-in Law's Care Home said "If you tried to look after her at home you'd want to kill her after 7 days. The staff here work for 8 hours and then they go home to their families, and they are paid to do it."

Yes they are the forgotten people : forgotten by this government until yesterday, when they finally got around to including Care Homes in their testing plans; forgotten when it came to enabling access to PPE supplies; forgotten when hospital patients where discharged from Hospitals already dealing with Covid patients back to Care Homes without being tested.

[sonyc 5,515]

Okay, I tried. It is only just starting and nowhere near an end.

Note to self: Time out required!

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

1 minute ago, Bill said:

you've just contradicted yourself

I think you owe £100. We've been here before, I believe.

[sonyc 5,515]

2 minutes ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

That's a very objectionable and inaccurate set of statements. It's something I would expect to hear was printed in The Daily Mail.

For many, and probably most, families moving an elderly relative into a Care Home is a very difficult decision to make, but it is the best decision they can make for the sake of the relative.

The average length of stay in a Care Home is 18 months and the majority of residents in Care Homes  have some form of dementia. As the Manager of my Mother-in Law's Care Home said "If you tried to look after her at home you'd want to kill her after 7 days. The staff here work for 8 hours and then they go home to their families, and they are paid to do it."

Yes they are the forgotten people : forgotten by this government until yesterday, when they finally got around to including Care Homes in their testing plans; forgotten when it came to enabling access to PPE supplies; forgotten when hospital patients where discharged from Hospitals already dealing with Covid patients back to Care Homes without being tested.

Yep, but not paid enough either.

[Van wink 2,994]

12 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its a madhouse Tilly😂

Looks like we are back to the Lewis Carroll stuff. 

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

23 minutes ago, Bill said:

it gets worse

threatening to resign would reveal who they are ..................😖

Why would that matter if they have resigned from the committee?

And they would only reveal if they went public with their threat. In which case it was their choice to reveal. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Rock The Boat