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45 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I have read your quote many times and every time hope I have read it wrong and you are not saying they signed up to it, get on with it, you are there to treat the sick and dying, so I hope I am wrong.

Just for the record though as at today 682 frontline health workers have died in the U.K. from Covid. These include receptionists, carers and cleaners, who definitely did not sign up to it. Nurses and doctors are being transferred in from the military and in the remembrance service Saturday night one of them said ‘ I served in Afghanistan and compared to this the horrors I saw there are nothing ‘. 
Anybody dealing with the effects of Covid are and will be International heroes and heroines. Here are 4 of their stories, read about the nurses daughter who took her mums scarf. If as I hope I have misread your comments then this you can treat as a story of what these people are going through. If you really meant they are just doing their job, then I will leave you to consider your response.

Wether you believe Covid exists or not or wether we should or shouldn’t lock down or even wether this data is right or wrong, then that’s down to all our personal opinion. Our Nurses though are putting their lives on hold and at risk.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54877668

Our doctors and nurses, health care workers and hospital cleaners were putting their lives at risk in the winter of 2017/2018 when there were 55,720 excess winter deaths. So why were there no emotional appeals or requests to lockdown the nation then? Why are there no column inches in the media devoted to the people dying of cancer because their screenings were cancelled? Why don't we hear the stories of people dead from heart attacks because the hospitals resources were targeted at saving the over 80s? Where are the accounts of those driven to suicide through lockdown?

We know that doctors and nurses are on the front line of dealing with this virus but then so are the supermarket checkout cashiers, and they are working with far less PPE than medical staff. Or should we only feel gratitude to the NHS? How about delivery drivers, mailmen, restaurant workers, school staff? All people playing important roles in keeping the fabric of society together while risking their lives just as much as health workers. 

Perhaps you need to step down off that high horse so you can see how things are down on the ground.

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Here in Iceland  we are leading the world in coronavirus data 

Not only do we report new cases and deaths, we are now reporting future deaths 

Monday's news

"Five people died this weekend and a sixth death appears imminent, the hospital’s director said this morning"

Tuesday's news

"It is assumed, though not confirmed, that the casualty is the same patient referred to by Landspítali director Páll Matthíasson at yesterday’s civil protection press conference when he said that five people had died over the weekend and that a sixth death appeared imminent."

jæja 😯

 

 

 

Edited by How I Wrote Elastic Man
Insertion of quotation mark

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8 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

Here in Iceland  we are leading the world in coronavirus data 

Not only do we report new cases and deaths, we are now reporting future deaths 

Monday's news

"Five people died this weekend and a sixth death appears imminent, the hospital’s director said this morning"

Tuesday's news

"It is assumed, though not confirmed, that the casualty is the same patient referred to by Landspítali director Páll Matthíasson at yesterday’s civil protection press conference when he said that five people had died over the weekend and that a sixth death appeared imminent."

jæja 😯

 

 

 

From to read but also hints at very open communication by your government.

Picking up on this and RTBs comments above, I wonder whether national deaths will be reported more regularly in the future if we get back to some normality in 2021? Flu, cancer etc?

Suicides have been a trend for men here in the UK for the last few years. I have worked in that field (prevention....for the last 4 years in particular) and at least there are more services now. TV reports also have been more regular haven't they?

I think if we get greater transparency on such data it will help all us folk with greater perspective...not a bad thing. It's the one thing we are all guaranteed. Castaneda's great creation, Don Juan, would say we must treat 'death as our advisor'. Deep stuff.

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As always the subject of lockdowns is a mixed bag of opinions and nobody has the easy straightforward answer, the only winner as ever, either health wise, economically or other areas of life is the virus itself. But my own personal opinion is, the main criteria for  lockdown is increasing weekly deaths associated with Covid, increasing weekly admissions of Covid patients into hospitals and pressure on the NHS staff. All these 3 things are still happening so Lockdown for me is necessary until those things start to decrease, and decrease as in a definite and obvious drop to more manageable proportions.

That of course is the Governments job to decide and not one i would like to take on, hence why i always try not to  pick faults in what our politicians decide, its a thankless enough task without armchair opinionaters thinking they can do better, i for sure could'nt.

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His comment this time was about nurses and doctors. His comment previously was about teachers, which I replied to and had he have mentioned any of the others that you mention, my response would have been the same. 
As far as on the ground up here goes, my son is in isolation as somebody in his college class was positive, My grandson is in isolation as his dad was positive, our granddaughter is in isolation 3 positives in her class. Our grandsons dads partner ( also positive ) works in a pub. Had a sore throat and temperature but decided it couldn’t be Covid went in then had a positive test. She may well have become a spreader. Our hospitals are full up here and in the last week Midlands hospitals have had as many deaths in the last seven days as their peak rates. Despite nearly 6 weeks of tier 2 and upwards our numbers are still increasing, and the Nightingale in Birmingham is set to open for the first time to get people out of the hospitals. Our nurses are working 12 hour shifts. Today as the government had decided to take the PPE supplies off local companies and get it centrally via China when their first supplies arrived today, they were all stamped not suitable for medical use. 
You are very lucky it has not hit Norfolk. As I have said before you should do everything you should to keep it that way.
 

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ZOE App boss confirms positives in decline well before lockdown decision. Watch the video, he seems to be taking a dim view of the lockdown.

 

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21 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

Some will require much smaller doses than others😳

90D4439A-0B4C-4794-82E1-94A283F5AFFD.jpeg

I didn't know the Brians were out of control. Lock them up rather than vaccinating them.

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4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

ZOE App boss confirms positives in decline well before lockdown decision. Watch the video, he seems to be taking a dim view of the lockdown.

Well if it was going to happen (and personally, no matter what Zoe says, I think it has been inevitable for many weeks given the complete failure of the 'local' lockdowns which were heading towards a de-facto national lockdown anyway) then it is obvious that it should have happened around the half term as in Wales.

But it is probably just as well that there appears to be an effective vaccine fairly close at hand because IMO Johnson's dithering and incompetence has created a situation in England where there is very little general consensus behind any course of action any more, other than vaccinating people as fast as possible - let's pray that he doesn't screw that up as well.

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5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Well if it was going to happen (and personally, no matter what Zoe says, I think it has been inevitable for many weeks given the complete failure of the 'local' lockdowns which were heading towards a de-facto national lockdown anyway) 

This contradicts what Prof Spector is saying that a national lockdown was unnecessary as the local measures were working. His view is that Government were swayed by the Imperial survey that projected huge numbers by mid November. We have already seen how off beam those projections are. One can understand Governments fear of those numbers coming to pass but it is telling how more and more respected figures are coming round to the idea that the lockdown is a huge own goal.

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41 minutes ago, ricardo said:

This contradicts what Prof Spector is saying that a national lockdown was unnecessary as the local measures were working. His view is that Government were swayed by the Imperial survey that projected huge numbers by mid November. We have already seen how off beam those projections are. One can understand Governments fear of those numbers coming to pass but it is telling how more and more respected figures are coming round to the idea that the lockdown is a huge own goal.

Well as you well know, listening to experts has dropped right out of fashion in recent years 😂

But on a more serious note I'm baffled at his conclusion that the local measure were working - from memory a few weeks ago there were 20 or 21 regions in lockdown and the virus was increasing (quickly in some cases) in all of them bar one.

That one was Leicester which went into lockdown so long ago I can't exactly remember when and hasn't come out.

In fact no region that went into a local lockdown has unlocked and most were steadily progressing up through to Tiers to the stricter levels. Meanwhile more regions where being added at a rate of several a week and I think when several of the West Yorkshire regions went in there well over a third of the English population already in lockdown with more following on - we, for instance, were already scheduled for lockdown (another 1.8m people) but that was effectively overtaken by the national lockdown only two days later so I think we got an extra two days of liberty although there was much confusion locally whether we were or weren't locked down for those two days 😀

So not only was nobody emerging from lockdown if you cast your mind back a little while one of the council leaders' complaints about the lockdowns was that there was no agreed criteria or exit path from the lockdown.

So all of that amounts to failure IMO, success as a bare minumum would had to have included regions emerging from lockdown and there was simply no indication whatsoever that was going to happen. Add to that, even with London lagging a bit behind this time, the lockdowns had pretty covered much all the major population and economic centres so the whole notion of containing local and isolated outbreaks simply didn't apply anyway.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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305k  tests 

22950 - 595       7days ago  25177   14 days ago  24701  21 days  26688

positives still trending down

As expected the Tues / Wed effect on fatalities

 

Inpatients  14196  up 579 since last update

 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Yesterdays European.

Italy         35089 - 580

France    42207 - 857 

Spain     17395 - 411

Germany  16668 - 203

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Prof Spector and the ZOE app was the flavour of the day while the figures were going up. Now its all in the bin since they've been dropping and he recanted the Orthodoxy.

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2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Prof Spector and the ZOE app was the flavour of the day while the figures were going up. Now its all in the bin since they've been dropping and he recanted the Orthodoxy.

Maybe, I haven't followed either and don't actually have any particular view of either but as I explained at length above, if he thinks the local lockdowns were working then I'm afraid we must have very different views about what represents success and I think that the vast majority of people who have experienced the local lockdowns would agree with me rather than the Prof.

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Whilst  i do think a lockdown was and is  necessary, for the 3 reasons i said, one also has to look at  the stats for what they are. As regards  the UK new daily infections, i dont know if nationally theyve decreased much, but for sure in North England areas they seem to be, but also nationally they have not increased above the 26k that was recorded 3 Wednesdays back.

Also, while todays deaths of 595 is the worst in this  2nd wave, its still  a good way behind the worst daily from April 21st when over 1,100 died. Also deaths  seem to be right now on a par with other nations like France and Italy, or actually  a bit below theirs.

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5 minutes ago, Essjayess said:

Whilst  i do think a lockdown was and is  necessary, for the 3 reasons i said, one also has to look at  the stats for what they are. As regards  the UK new daily infections, i dont know if nationally theyve decreased much, but for sure in North England areas they seem to be, but also nationally they have not increased above the 26k that was recorded 3 Wednesdays back.

Also, while todays deaths of 595 is the worst in this  2nd wave, its still  a good way behind the worst daily from April 21st when over 1,100 died. Also deaths  seem to be right now on a par with other nations like France and Italy, or actually  a bit below theirs.

As we are now well into the winter respiratory hospitalisation period,  increases are sadly to be expected  so these numbers to remain high for several more weeks. In normal years it tails off quickly after the end of December. This will be true for all countries in the Northern temperate zone but probably worse in Eastern European nations that missed much of the initial epeidemic.

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People in their 20s are still testing positive for Covid-19 more than any other age groups across Devon and Cornwall; except in Torbay, where people in their 50s are.

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7 hours ago, ricardo said:

305k  tests 

22950 - 595       7days ago  25177   14 days ago  24701  21 days  26688

positives still trending down

As expected the Tues / Wed effect on fatalities

 

Inpatients  14196  up 579 since last update

 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Yesterdays European.

Italy         35089 - 580

France    42207 - 857 

Spain     17395 - 411

Germany  16668 - 203

In the springtime this message board was in meltdown when our positives were higher than any comparable european country. But now Italy and France are way, way above the UK nobody mentions those countries any more. And soon Germany will be higher than us. What will posters say then? Nothing, I expect.

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We are the first European country to pass 50k deaths Rocky. Nothing at all to be smug about. 

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And here's an explanation of why we are at that dreadful total:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/who-was-shocked-by-britain-s-coronavirus-response/ar-BB1aUp47?ocid=msedgntp

WHO was shocked by Britain's coronavirus response

 

The World Health Organisation was shocked by Britain's COVID-19 response and alarmed that the government was aiming for herd immunity, leaked recordings show.

Speaking during a private meeting in March, the executive director of WHO's Health Emergencies programme, Irishman Dr. Michael Ryan, described Britain's pandemic herd immunity strategy as 'problematic'. 

'For that to happen, hundreds of thousands and millions of older people are going to become infected and there is just going to be so much death,' Ryan said of the plan.

His comments came after hearing the U.K.'s chief scientific officer, Sir Patrick Vallance, publicly say the country was aiming for herd immunity. 

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11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

In the springtime this message board was in meltdown when our positives were higher than any comparable european country. But now Italy and France are way, way above the UK nobody mentions those countries any more. And soon Germany will be higher than us. What will posters say then? Nothing, I expect.

It is a natural progression RTB. Once out of lockdown the virus began to spread again.   Slow at first in the off season, growing as the days shortened and got colder.  

No one has done anything to stop rather than delay spread so the virus is merrily making its way up to herd immunity level for that population.

If vaccines were to come to naught and we all largely gave up on suppression I would expect France with a slightly smaller and more dispersed population to have slightly slower growth and slightly less deaths overalls,  Italy to be slightly less than that.  Germany with larger, more dispersed population would reach a higher figure, but slower.

These figures are to be expected.  The one interesting bit is Germany still doing so well.

Vaccines are on the horizon so Germany the stand out.  Spain takins the wooden spoon. France and Italy hoping that vaccines come soon enough that they stay ahead of Belgium and the UK.

Latin America are in a different race altogether unfortunately.

 

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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19 hours ago, ricardo said:

Prof Spector and the ZOE app was the flavour of the day while the figures were going up. Now its all in the bin since they've been dropping and he recanted the Orthodoxy.

Ricardo, I do think Zoe is the flavour of the day but when you live where we are you would feel far more nervous about Covid ....least I believe you would. I trust the figures I see from Zoe. Ours have increased 3000 in 24 hours!

 

IMG_20201112_125446.jpg

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But nationally, cases are in decline. Total ZOE cases dropped about 1.5% again today. Yorkshire certainly still in a bad way but North West improving and the quiet areas remain quiet.

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

33400 positives today, big jump.

Thanks. This makes sense if my area is any guide. I was astonished to see case numbers rise from 7k to over 10k. I was hoping it was due to trail off. Yet, I keep reading R is now below 1. Must be a lag?

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

33400 positives today, big jump.

Must be the weekend numbers catching up 😉

Stick to the ONS or REACT studies which I see came out earlier i.e. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-flu-and-covid-19-surveillance-reports. 

Makes it pretty clear that apart from the NW its still generally growing - Tier 3 has an effect (as will the lockdown). Progressing now into the elderly sadly. Anyway all can read.

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7 minutes ago, Van wink said:

33400 positives today, big jump.

Indeed VW, more than 7k up on the 26k of 3 weeks ago and to, this coming on a Thursday, not the normal Tuesday / Wednesday high figures. Will need to wait some days to see if UK is now heading into the 30k's as a normal daily or if this is just a one off blip, but it highlights to me the absolute need for this present lockdown, albeit how  bad it is economically and for some, mentally to.

Globally to, yesterday  was a record high for deaths, first time the daily deaths  climbed above 10,000 so make no mistake,  globally Covid 19 is still increasing at a steady rate and shows no sigms of slowing down.

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