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14 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Thanks for that Sonyc.

Looks pretty much just like Oxford they are now putting their advice in the public domain. As CM just said - following the science, my a***

There are some very thoughtful pieces. Their 10 point plan would probably find support for you, Van wink and Yellow Fever in particular. Yet, Pillay thinks it's too late for a 2 week fire break now (ideally to have timed it with half term to minimise children's schooling....talked about on this thread).

He was pushing for a proper reset of test and trace and to resort to the more local expert ways of doing things (such as we did in preparing for the Aids epidemic, the Ebola response etc etc). He sees its never too late to do that. He felt giving it to the private sector in the way we have done was to miss out on all the experience, the understanding, the linkages, the nuances. I guess he strayed into the political but his point was purely about the best way to approach such a great health problem.

These scientists have no politics to push as far as I can make out and they appear to look at things from a purely 'pandemic' / health viewpoint.

Everything is political though at the end of the day. But ....they call themselves independent. I will be following their Friday lunchtime briefings (check the site).

Edited by sonyc
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20 minutes ago, sonyc said:

There are some very thoughtful pieces. Their 10 point plan would probably find support for you, Van wink and Yellow Fever in particular. Yet, Pillay thinks it's too late for a 2 week fire break now (ideally to have timed it with half term to minimise children's schooling....talked about on this thread).

He was pushing for a proper reset of test and trace and to resort to the more local expert ways of doing things (such as we did in preparing for the Aids epidemic, the Ebola response etc etc). He sees its never too late to do that. He felt giving it to the private sector in the way we have done was to miss out on all the experience, the understanding, the linkages, the nuances. I guess he strayed into the political but his point was purely about the best way to approach such a great health problem.

These scientists have no politics to push as far as I can make out and they appear to look at things from a purely 'pandemic' / health viewpoint.

Everything is political though at the end of the day. But ....they call themselves independent. I will be following their Friday lunchtime briefings (check the site).

Would give you one of those little hearts but run out, so thanks

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

I agree absolutely and she has used it to get people behind her agenda, however ( at least up until now ) the people of Scotland have listened to her, unlike the people of England with Boris.

Would it work if she took over from Boris and ran the U.K. - probably not but in her own country she seems to be listened to. The discussions on who got it right will only be answered with history.

I think there are three very obvious reasons why the Scots take much more notice of Sturgeon than the English do of Johnson:

  1. She does virtually all the briefings herself and she is an infinitely better communicator than Johnson (or any of the other numpties on the rota). She treats her audience as adults, the situation as serious but communicates in simple, clear messages with some empathy for the difficulties people involved are facing.
  2. Despite the relatively small number of mistakes Sturgeon has made, she has apologised a couple of times when she did scr*w up in marked contrast to Johnson who despite a continuous stream of complete scr*w ups has never acknowledged that he has messed up, never mind apologised.
  3. Johnson is a serial liar/maker of false promises that he has no intention/idea of how to fulfill them, Sturgeon isn't.

All of the three of the above mean that Sturgeon enjoys a level of trust and respect that Johnson can only dream about or in short - Sturgeon is a leader, Johnson isnt.

 

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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20 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think there are three very obvious reasons why the Scots take much more notice of Sturgeon than the English do of Johnson:

  1. She does virtually all the briefings herself and she is an infinitely better communicator than Johnson (or any of the other numpties on the rota). She treats her audience as adults, the situation as serious but communicates in simple, clear messages with some empathy for the difficulties people involved are facing.
  2. Despite the relatively small number of mistakes Sturgeon has made, she has apologised a couple of times when she did scr*w up in marked contrast to Johnson who despite a continuous stream of complete scr*w ups has never acknowledged that he has messed up, never mind apologised.
  3. Johnson is a serial liar/maker of false promises that he has no intention/idea of how to fulfill them, Sturgeon isn't.

All of the three of the above mean that Sturgeon enjoys a level of trust and respect that Johnson can only dream about or in short - Sturgeon is a leader, Johnson isnt.

 

Likewise a little heart but run out.

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

I don’t really want to read it again but am I right in saying those NHS authorities who ignored the rules found a high % of over 80’s given icu survived, and in areas where it was busier they dropped under 80 to under 60. That’s my recollection but please feel free to correct me if that’s not correct.

As other have said the criteria were unchanged. Itu is simply not right for some.

I also remember reading that the decision to admit is taken by the medics not by the trust. 

You could be right about the 'rebels'achieving better outcomes but I think it more likely that this was one of those twitter stories

 

 

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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12 hours ago, horsefly said:

This is truly shocking. The Tories have seemingly adopted the propaganda tactics of Joseph Goebbels.  The Government is demanding that any financial support for the arts is conditional on publicly publishing praise for the Johnson regime.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/oct/18/want-an-arts-bailout-then-youd-better-praise-sunak-co

"Arts organisations and businesses desperate for financial survival have been told that rescue grants are tied to them publicly praising a government campaign."

"Recipients in both rounds were instructed to “to welcome this funding on your social media accounts (using #HereforCulture), on your website (using the ‘Here for Culture’ logo) and in your newsletters”. The directive, first reported by the trade magazine ArtsProfessional, added that: “In receiving this funding, you are agreeing to acknowledge this funding publicly by crediting the government’s Culture Recovery Fund. This is a challenging time for the cultural sector, and the ‘Here for Culture’ campaign aims to build a positive movement uniting the members of the public and people across the sector to voice their support for culture. Alongside this, we require you to alert your local media outlets of the news."

 

Bye-bye freedom of speech.

 

The National Lottery funding projects does the same thing

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1 minute ago, Barbe bleu said:

As other have said the criteria were unchanged. Itu is simply not right for some.

I also remember reading that the decision to admit is taken by the medics not by the trust. 

You cod be right about the rebels achieving better outcomes but I think it more likely that this was one of those twitter stories

 

 

 

It’s the leaked ( allegedly ) report in The Times today.

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Please watch this, if you want a future for your children or your grand children , please watch this.

I couldn't delete the 2 Nd one but watch the first one.

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6 hours ago, Well b back said:

If this is true no wonder the hospitals were never overwhelmed. 
image.thumb.png.423def16c76cc6c49502c70f4afbfa1c.pngimage.thumb.png.3c0f69f500ce9b246c87fc5d9b5fdeae.png

Every single year hospital wards are cleared down to the bare minimum at Christmas time for no reason other than allowing more staff to take holidays. 

From personal experience, my father's GP tied to get him admitted to hospital a few days before Christmas but the administration wouldn't accept him as they wouldn't have the staff available due to holidays. He was finally accepted ten days later in the New Year and died three days after admittance. 

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5 hours ago, Teemu’s right foot said:

Only one type of death and health problems matters now to some people. They have been engulfed by it. Hard to remember a time when people died of all causes every day and it wasn’t rammed down our throats by the media...

A lot of people have made a huge emotional investment into the subject of Covid and for many it has been the only issue of consideration for the past ten months and they have a lot of problem to let go. As Buddha tells us the root ofall suffering is the inability to let go and so they continue to suffer. 

You are spot on to say they are engulfed by it. 

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49 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Every single year hospital wards are cleared down to the bare minimum at Christmas time for no reason other than allowing more staff to take holidays. 

From personal experience, my father's GP tied to get him admitted to hospital a few days before Christmas but the administration wouldn't accept him as they wouldn't have the staff available due to holidays. He was finally accepted ten days later in the New Year and died three days after admittance. 

Sorry to hear about your dad.

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Ireland come under EU rules which we have overridden with our new laws and they are quoting a couple of months to the initial roll out of the vaccine in Ireland. 

The Irish government added to the growing optimism that a vaccine would soon be available.

“I’m increasingly optimistic, as is government, that we will see a vaccine approved in the next couple of months and that in the first half or first quarter of next year it’ll be possible to start vaccinating those most at risk,” Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s deputy prime minister, who is also a doctor, told RTE radio on Sunday.

 

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35 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Our friend on the frontline says this is not true.

Been tweeted by an mp so I’d imagine the article factually holds weight 

 

Edited by Teemu’s right foot

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You'll have to excuse my cynicism but these are the same people and publications, Nelson,Delingpole, Spectator, Pearson, Telegraph etc. that sold the country brexit.

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22 minutes ago, Teemu’s right foot said:

Been tweeted by an mp so I’d imagine the article factually holds weight 

 

Let me explain.

In January 2020 the beds were close on 100% occupied. In February the NHS were put on red alert. In March they received an email warning of impending disaster. The government then put their plan into operation. All people not critically ill or deemed medically fit were to be discharged as stated on the official site this resulted in 

In Q1 2020/21, the bed occupancy rate decreased sharply to 64%, after trusts were asked to discharge all inpatients who were medically fit to leave to free up capacity during the Covid-19 pandemic.


The buildup of Covid was then a gradual thing so yes of course there were empty beds but those empty beds were people missing who were less seriously ill. Cancer and heart wards carried on, but by May a lot of that had been switched to private hospitals that were classed as Covid secure. As soon as Covid was restricted they started catching back up on the emergencies, followed by hip replacements. Even at this point they had to keep Covid secure wards even though they were not occupied by any patients. 
At present all wards are still open. To all intents and purposes care homes provided the extra beds, with people being released without tests and we know how well that wen !

She is not contesting there were empty beds, but she is questioning why this is not explained.

 

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25 minutes ago, Teemu’s right foot said:

So opinion based on factually accurate numbers then 

Based on complete misinterpretation. 

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3 minutes ago, Herman said:

You'll have to excuse my cynicism but these are the same people and publications, Nelson,Delingpole, Spectator, Pearson, Telegraph etc. that sold the country brexit.

I was going to make similar comment. Same sort of dubious youtube spun self-publicist misleading already debunked vs scientific consensus. Remind anybody of 2016? Sure you can put forward alternative theories but they need proper peer review and real data.

There are endless conspiracy or pet theories. Nobody is immune to them.

Anybody already bought Cummins book on fat and diets, or seen the list of Levitt's predictions on Covid that where erh wrong ? All a bit embaressing.

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8 minutes ago, Herman said:

You'll have to excuse my cynicism but these are the same people and publications, Nelson,Delingpole, Spectator, Pearson, Telegraph etc. that sold the country brexit.

If they believe what they are saying, don’t see them queuing up to help. They forget to say as well with isolation and the lack of staff the staff numbers are the problem, otherwise a couple of Nightingales would be open now.

See the anti vaxers are everywhere today over social media. 

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9 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Let me explain.

In January 2020 the beds were close on 100% occupied. In February the NHS were put on red alert. In March they received an email warning of impending disaster. The government then put their plan into operation. All people not critically ill or deemed medically fit were to be discharged as stated on the official site this resulted in 

In Q1 2020/21, the bed occupancy rate decreased sharply to 64%, after trusts were asked to discharge all inpatients who were medically fit to leave to free up capacity during the Covid-19 pandemic.


The buildup of Covid was then a gradual thing so yes of course there were empty beds but those empty beds were people missing who were less seriously ill. Cancer and heart wards carried on, but by May a lot of that had been switched to private hospitals that were classed as Covid secure. As soon as Covid was restricted they started catching back up on the emergencies, followed by hip replacements. Even at this point they had to keep Covid secure wards even though they were not occupied by any patients. 
At present all wards are still open. To all intents and purposes care homes provided the extra beds, with people being released without tests and we know how well that wen !

She is not contesting there were empty beds, but she is questioning why this is not explained.

 

Well said WBB.

I really do get fed up with the spin as opposed to honest facts warts and all.

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4 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I was going to make similar comment. Same sort of dubious youtube spun self-publicist misleading already debunked vs scientific consensus. Remind anybody of 2016? Sure you can put forward alternative theories but they need proper peer review and real data.

There are endless conspiracy or pet theories. Nobody is immune to them.

Anybody already bought Cummins book on fat and diets, or seen the list of Levitt's predictions on Covid that where erh wrong ? All a bit embaressing.

I wonder if these same people were on their doorsteps clapping the NHS. 
I do appreciate there are 2 sides to all this and we all have our own views, but to take factually correct data and then put on a spin like is not good.

I hope facebook / twitter ect are going to delete some of these totally incorrect posts about the impending vaccines.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I wonder if these same people were on their doorsteps clapping the NHS. 
I do appreciate there are 2 sides to all this and we all have our own views, but to take factually correct data and then put on a spin like is not good.

I hope facebook / twitter ect are going to delete some of these totally incorrect posts about the impending vaccines.

 

 

 

It is entirely correct to question the data and science, but one must also abide by the science fact based rules. 

I could make up any old theory .. did it correspond with a meteor shower. Fits the facts. Was it little green men ? Perhaps it was a dastardly global  conspiracy. Perhaps if you buy my book you'll all understand😉

I prefer grounded simple explanations.

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So we have facts, I was directed towards the official and most up to date NHS figures. Worth noting the figures for cancer and referrals have not been met for many years. It is also worth noting that one alarming figure is the referrals made from screening. Doctors referrals and first treatments were clearly catching up. These figures will of course back everyone’s thoughts in different ways. Teemu will pick things out and say there you are screening referrals dropped by 82 %, Yellow and I will point to the numbers in September for A and E getting back to normal. 
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/nhs-performance-summary-august-september-2020

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13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It is entirely correct to question the data and science, but one must also abide by the science fact based rules. 

I could make up any old theory .. did it correspond with a meteor shower. Fits the facts. Was it little green men ? Perhaps it was a dastardly global  conspiracy. Perhaps if you buy my book you'll all understand😉

I prefer grounded simple explanations.

 

IMG_20201025_220213.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It is entirely correct to question the data and science, but one must also abide by the science fact based rules. 

I could make up any old theory .. did it correspond with a meteor shower. Fits the facts. Was it little green men ? Perhaps it was a dastardly global  conspiracy. Perhaps if you buy my book you'll all understand😉

I prefer grounded simple explanations.

I have just put the official NHS figures for September. People have been dieing unfortunately for many years due to underfunding. Unfortunately again Covid has made this worse and highlighted it. Pity we didn’t have the same fight against the system 2 years ago, I never realised. There has always been empty beds as the below actual stats show ( again from the official figures ). 

Between Q1 2010/11 and Q4 2019/20, the total number of NHS hospital beds decreased by 11% from 144,455 to 128,935. But the number of occupied beds only decreased by 9%, from 122,551 to 111,324. Therefore, the bed occupancy rate increased slightly from 85% in Q1 2010/11 to 86% in Q4 2019/20.

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2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I have just put the official NHS figures for September. People have been dieing unfortunately for many years due to underfunding. Unfortunately again Covid has made this worse and highlighted it. Pity we didn’t have the same fight against the system 2 years ago, I never realised. There has always been empty beds as the below actual stats show ( again from the official figures ). 

Between Q1 2010/11 and Q4 2019/20, the total number of NHS hospital beds decreased by 11% from 144,455 to 128,935. But the number of occupied beds only decreased by 9%, from 122,551 to 111,324. Therefore, the bed occupancy rate increased slightly from 85% in Q1 2010/11 to 86% in Q4 2019/20.

Confounded by the lack of integration between the care and health system. Beds blocked very often, people not being able to be moved into homes etc. Then Covid ripped the whole thing (a mess) wide open. Very sadly.

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