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304k  tests

16982 - 67           7days ago 12872        14 days ago  12594

 

Inpatients  5608  not updated as yet

 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Yesterdays European.

Italy   10925 - 47

France 32427 - 89

Spain  as usual no weekend update available

Germany  4971 - 17

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5 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54436334
 

excellent article of the true cost of covid 19

its not all transmission rates and death rates. It’s ruining people’s lives and damaging them permanently. Physically and mentally. That’s why I totally oppose another national lockdown. There must be another way of fighting this virus and managing the other effects it has. 

We find ourselves in a similar position to some of these cases. 
The visiting rules are there to protect all residents, but that makes it none the less difficult for my wife and her dad. The stark realities are he lost his wife to Covid. He is now in a care home as he needs 24 hour care, he is 94 by the way. You are however dammed if you do or dammed if you don’t as with him in the care home whose staff are basically sacrificing a part of their own lives he is safe, but doesn’t see his family except on zoom, but if he comes home he will need a 24 carer ( a few carers ) and we will be there, however one of that group will eventually give him Covid, so what’s best safety with loneliness or danger without the loneliness. Who knows what’s best.

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2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

We find ourselves in a similar position to some of these cases. 
The visiting rules are there to protect all residents, but that makes it none the less difficult for my wife and her dad. The stark realities are he lost his wife to Covid. He is now in a care home as he needs 24 hour care, he is 94 by the way. You are however dammed if you do or dammed if you don’t as with him in the care home whose staff are basically sacrificing a part of their own lives he is safe, but doesn’t see his family except on zoom, but if he comes home he will need a 24 carer ( a few carers ) and we will be there, however one of that group will eventually give him Covid, so what’s best safety with loneliness or danger without the loneliness. Who knows what’s best.

When they said old people are “just existing” in these homes it hit home big time. It’s killing people’s spirit. I’ve seen older people who were full of life before this become doddery old fogeys, terrified of the world. It’s horrendous.

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1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

When they said old people are “just existing” in these homes it hit home big time. It’s killing people’s spirit. I’ve seen older people who were full of life before this become doddery old fogeys, terrified of the world. It’s horrendous.

Spot on, he is desperate to come home, we are desperate for him not to get Covid.
I wish I knew the answer.

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Just to update you all from our Come On Sarah thread, there are reports now from sources all over the place, quoted by SAGE, The Vaccine group and Van what’s his name, saying there will be 2 vaccines in the U.K. prior to Christmas. It more or less says the same as the Midlands Today report, just a month later. Going by what’s being said about it the 2 vaccines are Oxford and Pfizer. 

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Just to update you all from our Come On Sarah thread, there are reports now from sources all over the place, quoted by SAGE, The Vaccine group and Van what’s his name, saying there will be 2 vaccines in the U.K. prior to Christmas. It more or less says the same as the Midlands Today report, just a month later. Going by what’s being said about it the 2 vaccines are Oxford and Pfizer. 

Sunday Mail says first vaccine will be sent to U.S.A. from Belgium manufacturer’s, Boris says he doesn’t want it !

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1 hour ago, CANARYKING said:

Sunday Mail says first vaccine will be sent to U.S.A. from Belgium manufacturer’s, Boris says he doesn’t want it !

Lol

They are not very good at their jobs then, one is manufactured at Keele University Stoke on Trent England, the other is manufactured at various sites around the world, including the U.K. One of the few places I haven’t seen it being manufactured is Belgium as the EU have bought all their doses in.

In addition the US would not be able to use the Oxford vaccine at present as they decided not to continue their programme, Trump made the biggest mistake ever there thinking Moderna would overtake it.

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Is there anybody from IT who also started making less after the lockdown? I'm a software developer for already 7 years and my income was always fine ans stable but half a year ago my company started cutting my salary (a little in the very beginning, more and more in some months). I always thought IT industry will never suffer from neither pandemic nor economical crisis. 

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Wow, here's a graphic for you!

There is no trade-off between controlling the pandemic with strict mesures and economic pain, quite on the contrary. (Chart: Financial Times)

Image

I 've no idea what it means but someone took some time to do it so I thought it should be shared.

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1 hour ago, AnnaWilson said:

Is there anybody from IT who also started making less after the lockdown? I'm a software developer for already 7 years and my income was always fine ans stable but half a year ago my company started cutting my salary (a little in the very beginning, more and more in some months). I always thought IT industry will never suffer from neither pandemic nor economical crisis. 

I was fortunate to have the opposite experience that wasn't actually related to the pandemic or economic crisis and was purely coincidental that I was asked to take on extra work when a colleague moved on.

But I would say generally that the pandemic has been 'good' (seems a strange thing to to say but sadly true) for the IT industry - in all sorts of ways there has been an even greater dependence on software based services than ever before and I think much of that change is permanent rather than temporary.

If you have experienced the opposite then my guess is that the cause is Brexit rather than the pandemic - like all service industries IT is going to have a lot of problems\extra costs when the transition period ends, including finding high quality staff. So hopefully depending on what area you work in you may find you salary recovering - we used to recruit a lot of our software developers from Europe where there are some very well trained\educated people prepared to work for very reasonable money in the UK but no longer - the UK is now a very unattractive destination (for multiple reasons) for these people.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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I put on yesterday the comment from Andy Burnham re the 4 admissions saying I have no idea who’s telling the truth anymore. Now I see this and realise he probably was telling the truth, the catch some Manchester Hospitals are already full according to a leaked document. 
 

The files apparently show that three of the region's 12 hospitals are already full after a rise in Covid-19 cases. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Wow, here's a graphic for you!

There is no trade-off between controlling the pandemic with strict mesures and economic pain, quite on the contrary. (Chart: Financial Times)

Image

I 've no idea what it means but someone took some time to do it so I thought it should be shared.

Whereas I wouldn't read too much into the 'exact' positions of the various countries (societal and demographic differences at play) but the horizontal axis could equally be labelled increasing government incompetence.

Clearly shows however that the UK (and Spain) had the worst of all worlds (More deaths & large economic hit) being in the bottom right and yes those that acted swiftly and ruthlessly with societal compliance did best economically too. Who would of guessed that? 

 

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23 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Whereas I wouldn't read too much into the 'exact' positions of the various countries (societal and demographic differences at play) but the horizontal axis could equally be labelled increasing government incompetence.

Clearly shows however that the UK (and Spain) had the worst of all worlds (More deaths & large economic hit) being in the bottom right and yes those that acted swiftly and ruthlessly with societal compliance did best economically too. Who would of guessed that? 

 

The answer Oxford would have guessed that

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3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

The answer Oxford would have guessed that

I fear we're about to repeat the experiment - see if we can get the same overall result.

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26 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Whereas I wouldn't read too much into the 'exact' positions of the various countries (societal and demographic differences at play) but the horizontal axis could equally be labelled increasing government incompetence.

Clearly shows however that the UK (and Spain) had the worst of all worlds (More deaths & large economic hit) being in the bottom right and yes those that acted swiftly and ruthlessly with societal compliance did best economically too. Who would of guessed that? 

 

the only "defence" I'd give to the likes of Spain and UK was that we were somewhat blindsided by the virus when compared to New Zealand so by the time it was obvious we needed drastic action, it was too late.

I'm purely playing devils advocate as personally I was calling for more action to be done in early March where we could have avoided a far worse situation. My tweets at the time are proof that this isn't hindsight. New Zealand got a bit of a head start but they made the right call and reaped the rewards so fair play to them.

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2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

The answer Oxford would have guessed that

I think after all this I should go on mastermind, would have 2 specialist subjects, Oxford and the Jenner group and vaccines. Only problem is you have to do the general knowledge round, won’t be as good at that.

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2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I fear we're about to repeat the experiment - see if we can get the same overall result.

I feel I agree, but you know my thoughts on this I really believe they thought the vaccine would be out this month, but with its delay until December they were caught out. Now they are in a ridiculous situation where they can’t be seen yet again going back, however even if they did to clear the current mess we would be locked down until Christmas for it to have any effect ( according to Oxford ). Consequently ( and it is only my opinion so please don’t shoot me down ) they are giving us figures playing down what’s really happening and consequently they can’t even retaliate on Burnham as they don’t want the public to find out how full the hospitals are in Manchester and the surrounding areas.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

the only "defence" I'd give to the likes of Spain and UK was that we were somewhat blindsided by the virus when compared to New Zealand so by the time it was obvious we needed drastic action, it was too late.

I'm purely playing devils advocate as personally I was calling for more action to be done in early March where we could have avoided a far worse situation. My tweets at the time are proof that this isn't hindsight. New Zealand got a bit of a head start but they made the right call and reaped the rewards so fair play to them.

 

2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I feel I agree, but you know my thoughts on this I really believe they thought the vaccine would be out this month, but with its delay until December they were caught out. Now they are in a ridiculous situation where they can’t be seen yet again going back, however even if they did to clear the current mess we would be locked down until Christmas for it to have any effect ( according to Oxford ). Consequently ( and it is only my opinion so please don’t shoot me down ) they are giving us figures playing down what’s really happening and consequently they can’t even retaliate on Burnham as they don’t want the public to find out how full the hospitals are in Manchester and the surrounding areas.

 

 

Agree TJ - which is why I say the exact position are open to debate - Italy and Spain clearly had little warning but the trends (and more importantly lessons to be learnt) are clear. Bumbling inaction costs lives and money.

WBB - On the vaccines I don't think anybody in the 'field' thought that there would be a significant role out before say next Spring  (with luck) - yes a few phase 3 trials (which the media confuse with 'roll-out' - licensed) and perhaps some key workers but not generally for the likes of you and me.  I don't believe the govt. seriously thought otherwise (else more fool them - they've been told enough times -  but then It seems that does sum them up).

 

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20 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I feel I agree, but you know my thoughts on this I really believe they thought the vaccine would be out this month, but with its delay until December they were caught out. Now they are in a ridiculous situation where they can’t be seen yet again going back, however even if they did to clear the current mess we would be locked down until Christmas for it to have any effect ( according to Oxford ). Consequently ( and it is only my opinion so please don’t shoot me down ) they are giving us figures playing down what’s really happening and consequently they can’t even retaliate on Burnham as they don’t want the public to find out how full the hospitals are in Manchester and the surrounding areas.

 

 

You do realise that even if there was a vaccine right now, the logistics involved in giving it to 66 million people would take years to deliver? 

Realistically we can only give it to NHS staff, careworkers and the 1.5m vulnerable each year.

It's not the solution you think it is. 

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2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Agree TJ - which is why I say the exact position are open to debate - Italy and Spain clearly had little warning but the trends (and more importantly lessons to be learnt) are clear. Bumbling inaction costs lives and money.

WBB - On the vaccines I don't think anybody in the 'field' thought that there would be a significant role out before say next Spring  (with luck) - yes a few phase 3 trials (which the media confuse with 'roll-out' - licensed) and perhaps some key workers but not generally for the likes of you and me.  I don't believe the govt. seriously thought otherwise (else more fool them - they've been told enough times -  but then It seems that does sum them up).

 

Yep probably right although Midlands today were adamant they had seen papers saying the vaccines ( even named them ) would be rolled out in October in Staffs and Herefordshire.

I am probably trying to find excuses for them, after the first effort, why would you not go with the science second time round and circuit break 4 weeks that is now clearly exploding in your face.

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1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You do realise that even if there was a vaccine right now, the logistics involved in giving it to 66 million people would take years to deliver? 

Realistically we can only give it to NHS staff, careworkers and the 1.5m vulnerable each year.

It's not the solution you think it is. 

Where have I said that ? It was only being rolled out to 160,000 care workers and the very vulnerable in Staffordshire and Herefordshire. 
The vaccines are in mass production and if you go to the come on Sarah thread you will see the official statements of how it will be rolled out with hubs in Leeds, London, Hull and 2 other places. I guess December has given the opportunity for these places to be up and running. 

Not sure if you realise with the first 2 vaccines Oxford and Pfizer we will need 2 doses a month apart, so Pfizer’s 40,000,000 doses due to be delivered will only be enough for 20,000,000 people. The initial plan is to vaccinate 50% of the population by the summer, so you are correct nothing will go back to normal until the summer. As yet we do not know if the vaccines even work, although I am guessing they are a lot further forward than they are suggesting. I am also guessing ( from the comments ) Oxford is 50% effective at stopping you catching Covid, but far more effective at stopping it spreading to your lungs.
And by the way the Oxford vaccine has been in manufacture for many years not the few months being mentioned by the anti Vaxers.

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Here is a little snippet for you Teemu that shows how the discussions continue but these will be groups 1 or 2 ( order to be decided ), group 3 75s, group 4 over 65’s group 5 underlying conditions not already vaccinated.

It is not expected at this time under 18’s will be offered a vaccination unless there is a vaccine released that protects for life. On a further note it is hoped a treatment ( or more ) will become effective early in the new year, making this more like flu.

Discussions are already underway between NHS England, the British Medical Association (BMA) as well as other groups over who will administer the vaccines and who will be the first to receive it. There is debate on whether the first groups to be vaccinated will be care home patients and staff, or healthcare professionals such as GPs.

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56 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You do realise that even if there was a vaccine right now, the logistics involved in giving it to 66 million people would take years to deliver? 

Realistically we can only give it to NHS staff, careworkers and the 1.5m vulnerable each year.

It's not the solution you think it is. 

I dont think  it would be a be necessary to get it to 66million.   60 odd % of the population and its in inevitable decline.  This number could be significantly reduced if it could get to the 'superspreaders' first

 

and of course deaths and serious illness are what really counts so breaking this chain should be quite quick and easy

 

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4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I dont think  it would be a be necessary to get it to 66million.   60 odd % of the population and its in inevitable decline.  This number could be significantly reduced if it could get to the 'superspreaders' first

 

and of course deaths and serious illness are what really counts so breaking this chain should be quite quick and easy

 

Spot on.

It is also expected that a treatment will be far more advanced by the new year ( I am guessing that’s the synthetic anti body thing but only guessing ). If it can become like flu that will be good with the proviso that ‘ long Covid ‘ can be treated as this seems to be becoming a bigger issue than deaths. If this can’t be sorted, I am guessing like polio and measles vaccines the Covid vaccine will become compulsory if this is as bad as some are claiming. 
Like I have said before there will be 2 different views ( until or if it is proven or unproven if it has long term effects on the young and asymptotic ). Us older ( definitely over 60 possibly over 50 ) and any with underlying conditions will be fighting to get to the front of the quee as Covid is more likely to kill us than the vaccine, whereas those under 30 will have the reverse idea that the vaccine is more likely to kill them than Covid.

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Wales locking down from Friday for 2 weeks.

Is it to late to stop the virus ? Will we follow ? If we don’t and Wales and Ireland work will Boris be toast ? 

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10 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Spot on.

It is also expected that a treatment will be far more advanced by the new year ( I am guessing that’s the synthetic anti body thing but only guessing ). If it can become like flu that will be good with the proviso that ‘ long Covid ‘ can be treated as this seems to be becoming a bigger issue than deaths. If this can’t be sorted, I am guessing like polio and measles vaccines the Covid vaccine will become compulsory if this is as bad as some are claiming. 
Like I have said before there will be 2 different views ( until or if it is proven or unproven if it has long term effects on the young and asymptotic ). Us older ( definitely over 60 possibly over 50 ) and any with underlying conditions will be fighting to get to the front of the quee as Covid is more likely to kill us than the vaccine, whereas those under 30 will have the reverse idea that the vaccine is more likely to kill them than Covid.

Just a couple of 'cold' comments.

From purely 'resources' view - it's people in hospital that overwhelm the NHS. Discharges or 'exits' even by death actually relieve the pressure! Oddly - having people as such in ICU or even ordinary wards for long periods will quickly overwhelm capability. Managing to 'save' more people may actually cause many more issues!

As to the vaccines - any released vaccine is extremely unlikely to cause you any problems - whereas Covid19 - even for the under 30's is likely to be far far more dangerous directly and troublesome long term. It's just not an equal comparison of risk. Don't give the anti-vaxxer nutters any oxygen (possibly literally 😉 ) or room.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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