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We need a strong public health message about the value of wearing mask, unambiguous and backed by regulation as it seems some are too stupid to grasp the importance. 

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yep, after all no medical staff wearing the best mask available have died - or even become infected, have they ?

no one in countries where this silliness is practised has died or become infected either have they ?

unfortunately those not too bright will continue to put their trust in any form of comfort blanket that 'master' tells them to use

 

ps how strange that hand crank should just happen to log in a minute after I had posted my first comment about wearing a mask

just another one of those 'coincidences', I suppose 🤔

still, the clock strikes 2, the penny farthing calls and hand crank is here with his lies

 

so toodle pip old fruits - enjoy hand crank and his cloak of many names

au revoir M. Le Crank

 

Edited by Bill

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9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

We need a strong public health message about the value of wearing mask, unambiguous and backed by regulation as it seems some are too stupid to grasp the importance. 

I completely agree but when you say 'some are too stupid to grasp the importance' I suspect you are primarily referring to the public but I'm afraid the government and senior NHS management are even more culpable (or stupid, hard to say which) - my daughter is still working on a Corvid ward as she has been from the very start of the crisis but now the numbers are significantly reduced they are again treating their standard respiratory cases as well as Covid patients.

However 3 or 4 weeks ago (at least) the Trust ran out of the only design of mask which is both safe and fits her (and a good number of her colleagues) properly and the Trust has failed or can't source any more. As a result of which she is still doing her shifts but can't do her job properly because she can't go into any room in which a Covid patient is being treated.

I stress that this is a situation that has been going on for weeks and weeks, and is affecting not just her but a significant proportion of her colleagues. IMO for this to be going on 4 (6?) months after the start of the crisis and long after we have been repeatedly assured by the government that the PPE shambles has been sorted and yet it still goes on in a major city teaching hospital beggars belief, or least it would do if we hadn't become so totally accustomed to the lies and the incompetance of this government.

 

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

yep, after all no medical staff wearing the best mask available have died - or even become infected, have they ?

no one in countries where this silliness is practised has died or become infected either have they ?

unfortunately those not too bright will continue to put their trust in any form of comfort blanket that 'master' tells them to use

 

ps how strange that hand crank should just happen to log in a minute after I had posted my first comment about wearing a mask

just another one of those 'coincidences', I suppose 🤔

still, the clock strikes 2, the penny farthing calls and hand crank is here with his lies

 

so toodle pip old fruits - enjoy hand crank and his cloak of many names

au revoir M. Le Crank

 

Nothing in that load of tripe worth responding to🧐

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I completely agree but when you say 'some are too stupid to grasp the importance' I suspect you are primarily referring to the public but I'm afraid the government and senior NHS management are even more culpable (or stupid, hard to say which) - my daughter is still working on a Corvid ward as she has been from the very start of the crisis but now the numbers are significantly reduced they are again treating their standard respiratory cases as well as Covid patients.

However 3 or 4 weeks ago (at least) the Trust ran out of the only design of mask which is both safe and fits her (and a good number of her colleagues) properly and the Trust has failed or can't source any more. As a result of which she is still doing her shifts but can't do her job properly because she can't go into any room in which a Covid patient is being treated.

I stress that this is a situation that has been going on for weeks and weeks, and is affecting not just her but a significant proportion of her colleagues. IMO for this to be going on 4 (6?) months after the start of the crisis and long after we have been repeatedly assured by the government that the PPE shambles has been sorted and yet it still goes on in a major city teaching hospital beggars belief, or least it would do if we hadn't become so totally accustomed to the lies and the incompetance of this government.

 

The whole PPE thing is a shambles, we agree on something😁

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2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I completely agree but when you say 'some are too stupid to grasp the importance' I suspect you are primarily referring to the public but I'm afraid the government and senior NHS management are even more culpable (or stupid, hard to say which) - my daughter is still working on a Corvid ward as she has been from the very start of the crisis but now the numbers are significantly reduced they are again treating their standard respiratory cases as well as Covid patients.

However 3 or 4 weeks ago (at least) the Trust ran out of the only design of mask which is both safe and fits her (and a good number of her colleagues) properly and the Trust has failed or can't source any more. As a result of which she is still doing her shifts but can't do her job properly because she can't go into any room in which a Covid patient is being treated.

I stress that this is a situation that has been going on for weeks and weeks, and is affecting not just her but a significant proportion of her colleagues. IMO for this to be going on 4 (6?) months after the start of the crisis and long after we have been repeatedly assured by the government that the PPE shambles has been sorted and yet it still goes on in a major city teaching hospital beggars belief, or least it would do if we hadn't become so totally accustomed to the lies and the incompetance of this government.

And there is an example of why this 'fancy dress' malarky should be exposed for what it is. Window dressing... and dangerous at that, as all other precautions have gone out of the window.

But hark, tell the gormless that a bit of cloth will ward of 'ye nastinesses' and it is their fault if it doesn't. Which given the likelihood of a rise in infections not long down the road the government are pushing this idiocy - but not pushing the means to enforce it.

Meanwhile, as above, health workers continue to be put at risk by the is bunch of liars. Yep, £10 off a meal - but continuing shortage of masks etc for health workers.

£1.5bn to save theatres but far call for operating theatres.

A government more concerned with covering its ar se, than safely covering health workers

But then, while it still has lick spittles believing, and regurgitating, every word then it will continue.

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Have a listen to Dr Soo Aleman on Sweden and Herd Immunity:

We hear a lot about Sweden’s experience of Covid-19, with the New York Times declaring this week that that country is now “the world’s cautionary tale.”

But what’s it really like on the ground?

Dr Soo Aleman has been both on the front lines of the Covid-19 epidemic as a senior physician at Stockholm’s leading Karolinska hospital, and on the research side, as Assistant Professor at the Karolinska Institute and one of a group that last week published new data around T-cell immunity.

We talked to her about the findings of that study, and how it matches what she is seeing in her hospital.

Link to the Karolinska Institute T Cell study:

https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid-...

Key quotes:

“Intensive care units are getting empty, the wards are getting empty, we are really seeing a decrease — and that despite that people are really loosening up. The beaches are crowded, social distancing is not kept very well ... but still the numbers are really decreasing. That means that something else is happening – we are actually getting closer to herd immunity. I can’t really see another reason.”

“I can’t say if the Swedish approach was right or wrong – I think we can say that in one or two years when we are looking back. You have to look at the mortality over the whole period.”

“I don’t think that we have more new cases, I think we are just detecting more cases”

“We found that if you have a mild case you can be negative for antibodies afterwards … in those almost all of them had strong T-cell activity. This study says that there are cases that you can have a strong T-cell response even though you have not had antibodies, meaning that you have encountered the virus and built up immunity.”

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Along the lines of getting fitter to be more resilient against C19 here is some well-timed inspiration. I've been out tonight and scaled the local stone wall of the playing fields myself (and in slow motion too). Get fit and in trim with Matt. 1.6m are inspired already.

 

 

Edited by sonyc

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21 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Indeed. Zoonotic diseases have been periodically talked about since the pandemic began. You wonder though whether the world will improve the regulation of food systems. Already it appears even in the UK we are heading in the opposite direction because it will all become a race for increased productive capacity and profit. I'm sceptical really.

Yet as mentioned in this thread before at the local level there are signs of a greater concern for quality and shall I say, a more distributive system in terms of the sharing of revenue for producers. 

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4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yet as mentioned in this thread before at the local level there are signs of a greater concern for quality and shall I say, a more distributive system in terms of the sharing of revenue for producers. 

The problem there is while that is commendable so many do not have the choice, simply through lack of money

And even the rest will find it harder if filth from the US is imported whereby you will not know where it came from and how it was produced

How will you know what your children are being fed, what you are being fed in hospital or simply in a restaurant.

It will need a massive fight back by those concerned to stop this stuff entering the food chain, and to work towards ensuring others have the advice and the ability to eat more safely

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11 minutes ago, Bill said:

The problem there is while that is commendable so many do not have the choice, simply through lack of money

And even the rest will find it harder if filth from the US is imported whereby you will not know where it came from and how it was produced

How will you know what your children are being fed, what you are being fed in hospital or simply in a restaurant.

It will need a massive fight back by those concerned to stop this stuff entering the food chain, and to work towards ensuring others have the advice and the ability to eat more safely

Agree with this Bill. Good food quality and choice has never been easy for disadvantaged sections in society. Part of this problem can be tackled by good education. A bigger issue though is absolute poverty and how we approach health inequality (latest Marmot report).

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“Filth from the US” is the sort of remark that doesn’t help progress this debate.

There is however a massive challenge in addressing inequality and protecting the environment and the natural world. 

 The first thing we all need to appreciate is that meat isn’t and shouldn’t be considered a cheap source of protein, if we want it we need to be prepared to pay the true cost of humane production and environmental impact. For many that will make meat unaffordable as a routine source of protein.

There are more and more reasonable alternative products which need much better marketing and rebranding.

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Big Quorn fan myself as well as all kinds of beans and pulses. No chlorinated chicken for me.

Anyway in answer to your point VW, it's education as well as branding/marketing.

Edited by sonyc

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8 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Big Quorn fan myself as well as all kinds of beans and pulses. No chlorinated chicken for me.

Anyway in answer to your point VW, it's education as well as branding/marketing.

Yep education.

As for chlorinated chicken.....the best mantra is no mass produced chicken whether it be chlorinated or not, unless someone can argue that the way chicken is produced in the U.K. and other European countries is justifiable in terms of welfare or food safety.

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23 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

This doesn't look good

I hope this doesn't turn out to be right  but if it does, it doesn't look good for the herd immunity theory 

It makes me think - if the common cold and flu can re-infect many times, why not covid-19?

Hopefully a working vaccine will be developed, even if people need 3 shots a year, or something similar. Or covid-19 loses its potency and becomes nothing more dangerous than a cold 🤞

Maybe because we can easily measures antibodies we have all given them more importance than they warrant. Perhaps also we need to hear much more about t cells

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

“Filth from the US” is the sort of remark that doesn’t help progress this debate.

There is however a massive challenge in addressing inequality and protecting the environment and the natural world. 

 The first thing we all need to appreciate is that meat isn’t and shouldn’t be considered a cheap source of protein, if we want it we need to be prepared to pay the true cost of humane production and environmental impact. For many that will make meat unaffordable as a routine source of protein.

There are more and more reasonable alternative products which need much better marketing and rebranding.

Here's a good article by Shanker Singham who is Chair of Global Vision, CEO of Competere, Head of Trade at the Centre for Economics and Business Research, a senior advisor to Huntsworth and Grayling and Director of the International Trade and Competition Unit at the Institute of Economic Affairs:

https://capx.co/how-we-can-protect-our-farmers-and-promote-free-trade/

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-hereford-worcester-53393255

 

Does it proper annoy anyone else that after all our efforts in "staying home", "staying alert", "controlling the virus" etc. they are undermined by greedy business owners like in this story that just take the **** and treat their staff like this during a global pandemic? How the **** is this even allowed? 1 toilet between like 200 is a joke at the best of times. They should have their farm shut down.

No doubt all we will hear in the press is about the sodding R number shooting up and its all because the pubs reopened...

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Talking of what hear about in the press, it seems you have to dig around a bit to find the news that only 11 people died from coronavirus today. 25 yesterday. The BBC front page on the app has articles about it rising in other countries and a “worry about threat of violence rising as a result of covid”. But doesn’t mention the numbers falling to the lowest since before lockdown. I hadn’t seen anywhere that the numbers had been below the 5 yearly average since mid June, yet that’s what the ONS says. 

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3 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Talking of what hear about in the press, it seems you have to dig around a bit to find the news that only 11 people died from coronavirus today. 25 yesterday. The BBC front page on the app has articles about it rising in other countries and a “worry about threat of violence rising as a result of covid”. But doesn’t mention the numbers falling to the lowest since before lockdown. I hadn’t seen anywhere that the numbers had been below the 5 yearly average since mid June, yet that’s what the ONS says. 

Good news is no news sadly

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5 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Talking of what hear about in the press, it seems you have to dig around a bit to find the news that only 11 people died from coronavirus today. 25 yesterday. The BBC front page on the app has articles about it rising in other countries and a “worry about threat of violence rising as a result of covid”. But doesn’t mention the numbers falling to the lowest since before lockdown. I hadn’t seen anywhere that the numbers had been below the 5 yearly average since mid June, yet that’s what the ONS says. 

Been following the figures closely and whilst we are still seeing a decrease in deaths (sitting at around 40 a day in all settings when you look at date of death), im slightly concerned the case numbers aren't dropping quick enough and we have opened up more things which will make it harder to control.

The main gripe I have is as I linked above, at least 70 completely preventable cases there all because some greedy farm wants to skimp out on employee welfare. There should be tougher government action on places like this.

I'm positive that with the clustered nature of the spread that it should be really easy to keep driving case numbers down but our efforts are undermined by allowing businesses and other similar environments to operate under such squalid standards.

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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Don't look at the stats for the US. Blimey, they have lost control.

yup, another "rich superpower" that treats their lower class workforce like ****. It's like the virus is our conscience speaking as a species, just picking out areas of inequality and flagging them up with outbreaks.

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57 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-hereford-worcester-53393255

 

Does it proper annoy anyone else that after all our efforts in "staying home", "staying alert", "controlling the virus" etc. they are undermined by greedy business owners like in this story that just take the **** and treat their staff like this during a global pandemic? How the **** is this even allowed? 1 toilet between like 200 is a joke at the best of times. They should have their farm shut down.

No doubt all we will hear in the press is about the sodding R number shooting up and its all because the pubs reopened...

Merthyr Tydfil is only 35 miles from the farm and has the highest rates of youth unemployment in Britain --- It would be cheaper to coach them in than have migrant workers on low wages residing in poor conditions.

Edited by Jools

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17 minutes ago, Jools said:

Merthyr Tydfil is only 35 miles from the farm and has the highest rates of youth unemployment in Britain --- It would be cheaper to coach them in than have migrant workers on low wages residing in poor conditions.

isn't part of the job the need to reside on site though?

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Talking of what hear about in the press, it seems you have to dig around a bit to find the news that only 11 people died from coronavirus today. 25 yesterday. The BBC front page on the app has articles about it rising in other countries and a “worry about threat of violence rising as a result of covid”. But doesn’t mention the numbers falling to the lowest since before lockdown. I hadn’t seen anywhere that the numbers had been below the 5 yearly average since mid June, yet that’s what the ONS says. 

The numbers have dropped massively yet as a scientist on the radio was saying today, think of the weekly numbers being like a plane full of passengers dying each week. It is still quite a shocking number put in those terms. I suppose he was simply giving another example of expressing numbers. The 'good' news is only relative.

As for the US, it's one of the scandals of the century surely, such has been the sheer lack of leadership, coordination. European countries' trajectory and control of the virus is so markedly different.

As for outbreaks here, they all seem to be connected with close space (factories, areas of high housing density) and for this reason alone I'm more convinced now we won't see crowds in any kind of public event well into 2021 (music, sport etc) and it will be interesting (if not ghoulish) to see if numbers go up in a couple of weeks following the relaxation and all those mass gatherings we saw a week or so ago (infections being lagged).

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12 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

isn't part of the job the need to reside on site though?

If they're migrants, yes..

If they're relatively local, nay.

No need to fly in migrants who get treated like **** when there's plenty of local, unemployed landlubbers.

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2 hours ago, sonyc said:

As for the US, it's one of the scandals of the century surely, such has been the sheer lack of leadership, coordination. European countries' trajectory and control of the virus is so markedly different.

It should be SonyC. And maybe one of the outcomes of the pandemic will be to break the fever that Republicans have had since Reagan, that government is the problem and should be starved of funds and drowned in a bathtub. What comes across in so many actions of this administration and many Republican led States is complete indifference and incompetence when it comes to public health and the average person's welfare. It may turn out that we have hit an inflection point. Time will tell, starting on Nov / Jan. 

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