Corona Virus main thread

[ron obvious 1,499]

11 hours ago, ricardo said:

 

Many thanks for that ricardo. So good to see a sane, calm, objective discussion.

[Bill 1,788]

5 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I would change the fact that every government minister to speak about getting kids back to school has done it with **** assertions about it being specifically to close the disadvantage gap. Correct technically in so much as the gap will grow with kids not in school, but if anyone was unclear that is just a by-product of them wanting to get people back to work, then look no further than them not extending the free school meals vouchers over summer holidays.

Admittedly, FSM would not normally get them over summer hols, but we are not in normal times and the poorest who rely on these, are likely to be the ones who've been hit hardest.... even those who are furloughed. 80% of what you were already scraping to survive with, is proportionately far more drastic than 80% of a comfortable salary and disposable income. The cost is a drop in the ocean considering how much is already being spent and it would be a low-cost, high reward scheme.... but of course, they don't really give a **** about the poor and closing the gap as we already know - they only want them in school so their wealthy mates can put their parents back to work and resume profiteering and tax dodging.

Then clearly you did not see the chaps of Eton and Harrow proudly marching back to their school.

And I suspect you imagine that those who are 12 and over are not being allowed to return to school as it is something to do with them not needing adult supervision - so their parents can return to work.

Jolly unpatriotic is my thought 🧐

[Barbe bleu 814]

44 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I do believe the situations are different, but I'm happy to condemn Gardiner for being irresponsible if we're talking absolute, simplistic polarity on the issue. If we're taking a more realistic, adult approach and looking at it on a scale then both are on the wrong side of it but Cummings is further along that scale by a country mile, because what he did was patently more dangerous at a time when lockdown was tighter, and he helped make the rules.

I dont disagree with this.  Though of course if gardiner was infected and asymptomatic he probably would have presented the most danger.

I'm not particularly fussed by the breach, deliberate and  naughty but it's not exactly the worst thing I've seen or heard about. I was more commenting on the reversal,   It's almost.....tribal.....

Edited June 4, 2020 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 9,713]

You yourself are being tribal by desperately trying to trivialise Cummings actions and link it to Gardiner's action. 

False equivalence I think it is called. Quite common at the moment. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Herman

[Herman 9,713]

7 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

That's cheating.  What would you do now?

If I was in the current government either apologise or quit in embarrassment. 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

7 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I dont disagree with this.  Though of course if gardiner was infected and asymptomatic he probably would have presented the most danger.

I'm not particularly fussed by the breach, deliberate and  naughty but it's not exactly the worst thing I've seen or heard about. I was more commenting on the reversal,   It's almost.....tribal.....

But as pointed out Gardiner had good reasion to believe he wasn't infected while Cummings had good reason to believe he  and his wife and pehaps his child were.

Edited June 5, 2020 by PurpleCanary

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But as pointed out Gardiner had good reasion to believe he wasn't infected while Cummings had good reason to believe he  and his wife and pehaps his child were.

His Covid status at the time, whatever it may have been, is not the relevant point here, this is the problem with constantly trying to politicise what was originally a really good thread about the virus. People have not bothered or do not wish  to try and understand the science. The purpose of social distancing is to break the chain of infection, by being in a large crowd in the way he was he is becoming a potential vector. 
In my view what he did is not of the same order of magnitude as Cummings, but both deserve condemnation. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Van wink

[BigFish 1,986]

7 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I dont disagree with this.  Though of course if gardiner was infected and asymptomatic he probably would have presented the most danger.

I'm not particularly fussed by the breach, deliberate and  naughty but it's not exactly the worst thing I've seen or heard about. I was more commenting on the reversal,   It's almost.....tribal.....

Tribalist who created a seperate thread to keep Cummings off this thread accuses others of tribalism and posts refering to Cummings on this thread

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

16 minutes ago, Van wink said:

His Covid status at the time, whatever I may have been, is not the relevant point here, this is the problem with constantly trying to politicise what was originally a really good thread about the virus. People have not bothered or do not wish  to try and understand the science. The purpose of social distancing is to break the chain of infection, by being in a large crowd in the way he was he is becoming a potential vector. 
In my view what he did is not of the same order of magnitude as Cummings, but both deserve condemnation. 

I haven't said they don't.

[lake district canary 4,531]

The whole point of people who are indiscreet or flaunt the rules/guidlines in any way is that they are people who talk well about sticking to the rules, but when it comes down to they will do what they want, when they want.  It applies to Cummings and Gardner....and all the press who gather round these politicians ignoring the social distancing rules.  

All in the wrong.....I don't think apologising is any mitigation either, we all know the rules, if we flout them, we do it knowingly.

[Aggy 752]

9 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Yes the facts are different and different conclusions are possible.  

So I assume your position is that Gardiner did wrong? 

What did my last post say? What Gardiner did was not ‘alright’ but it’s very different to what Cummings did.

Is your position that what the two of them did is the same?

Edit: and of course Gardiner isn’t a senior advisor to the governments who came up with the lockdown rules in the first place...

Edited June 5, 2020 by Aggy

[Aggy 752]

8 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I dont disagree with this.  Though of course if gardiner was infected and asymptomatic he probably would have presented the most danger.

I'm not particularly fussed by the breach, deliberate and  naughty but it's not exactly the worst thing I've seen or heard about. I was more commenting on the reversal,   It's almost.....tribal.....

It’s really not tribal though is it. Who on this thread has said what Gardiner did was okay? You posted to say that there was clear bias from those who criticised Cummings but not Gardiner, but I can’t see that anyone has done that. 
 

So I ask, where is the bias? Where is the tribalism refusing to criticise “one of your own”? Is it from the people who have said Gardiner was in the wrong but what Cummings did was worse. Or is it from you - who seem to be choosing to deliberately misread everybody else’s posts about Gardiner to try and weaken points about Cummings?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Aggy

[Bill 1,788]

10 minutes ago, Aggy said:

 Or is it from you - who seem to be choosing to deliberately misread everybody else’s posts about Gardiner to try and weaken points about Cummings?

Him do that.....whatever next ?`

If he is not careful people will be noting the similarity to another name who does likewise 😏

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

I would like to congratulate VW and BB for bringing the Cummings saga back to the boil on here with a truly trivial piece of tribal  'whababoutery' on the foolish idiot Gardiner. 

First, Gardiner is almost a nobody - even the right wing MSM have moved on. He went on a March (had tested negative anyway) and didn't socially distance - and yes all in the full public glare (perhaps that's what he intended). An idiot.

Cummings.

First he thinks he / his wife / child have CV-19.

So he goes back straight back to No 10 - just to spread it around (all those civil servants -  let alone the PC on the door etc).

Then he scarpers in flagrant (actually secretly) with his family to Durham in a clear breach of his own 'rules' for us plebs. I suppose Durham didn't have enough cases already so best to spread it around. Don't forget this was the early days of the well observed lock-down - the roads where empty! 

Of course then they have to visit the local hospital for added risk.

Finally we have the Barnard Castle eye test. 

And then to to cap it all off he and his wife write articles in the Spectator which somehow gives one the  impression he/they were all very ill in London.

 

Finally we have Johnson cover-up, excuses and the Cabinet tweets.

And people wonder why those with any integrity on both the right and left have no respect left for the lot of them!

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Yellow Fever
Please keep it going - Cummigs Gate on the front pages all over again 'Lest we forget'

[Barbe bleu 814]

No one has said what they would do next apart from kick it off.   I guess everyone is happy with the direction of travel.

 

[Barbe bleu 814]

My post was a remark on the tribalism. The two incidents were just the vehicle. 

Let's not pretend that most of the posters here dont have a favoured side

Predictably the 'right' tried to make Gardiner and Cummings incidents equivalent and equally predictably the 'left' sought distinguish them. That is a very fair reading of the preceding pages.

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Thats cheating as well!   What, possible, change would you make?   

Is it that the government follow the epidemiological advice even if it is at the expense of the economy,?

I don't know of a western economy that hasn't recovered after every depression, recession, war or epidemic. But this virus has the scientists arguing amongst themselves because in reality, it appears they don't know enough about it.

So for me, we know enough about the the economy to know it will recover. But the outcome of the virus is still unknown.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Yes the facts are different and different conclusions are possible.  

So I assume your position is that Gardiner did wrong? 

Of course he did wrong. Everyone has said so. As a politician he should have known he was going to be seen and had the possibility of undoing the good work that SKS had done earlier in the day of broadcasting nationally the shortcomings of the Government.

But so has every protester that didn't socially distance, wear a mask on public transport or not wear gloves if touching items that may be touched by non protesters.

However, to restore the bias, Boris made very little of it except to say that the protesters should have observed the guidelines. In other words don't bring it up again. 

And you should probably have thought the same way.

Those of us on the left would loved to have seen Cummings sacked but he wasn't. Boris got away with it and George Floyd came at a very good time for the Government. That isn't cynical. It is a fact. It has detracted from the Bullshine that there would be 200K tests a day, the world beating test and track system and the App that isn't ready.

If anyone is happy with this incompetence then it can only be biased reasoning.

[BigFish 1,986]

16 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

My post was tribal.

Fixed that for you

[Barbe bleu 814]

Just now, BigFish said:

Fixed that for you

No, It was a plague on both your houses!

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yes the facts are different and different conclusions are possible.  

So I assume your position is that Gardiner did wrong? 

Of course he did wrong. Everyone has said so. As a politician he should have known he was going to be seen and had the possibility of undoing the good work that SKS had done earlier in the day of broadcasting nationally the shortcomings of the Government.

But so has every protester that didn't socially distance, wear a mask on public transport or not wear gloves if touching items that may be touched by non protesters.

However, to restore the bias, Boris made very little of it except to say that the protesters should have observed the guidelines. In other words don't bring it up again. 

And you should probably have thought the same way.

Those of us on the left would loved to have seen Cummings sacked but he wasn't. Boris got away with it and George Floyd came at a very good time for the Government. That isn't cynical. It is a fact. It has detracted from the Bullshine that there would be 200K tests a day, the world beating test and track system and the App that isn't ready.

If anyone is happy with this incompetence then it can only be biased reasoning.

Exactly KG.

It actually did cross my mind which I hinted at that SKS in a strange way might welcome the Gardiner effect - the dark art that brings Cummings back to the fore! I'm sure Johnsoni , Cummings and the Mail just realized hence please make the story go away quickly......

No doubt at all that Cuimmings should of been sacked. I wonder if SKS will take some action against Gardiner just to draw attention to his integity as oposed to the lack thoerof on the other benches 🙂

Edited June 5, 2020 by Yellow Fever

[Herman 9,713]

3 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

No, It was a plague on both your houses!

Don't leave the tories in charge of it. 

[Barbe bleu 814]

I've looked back on my original post it had two charges. The first being:

 the 'right' said "nothing to see here move on" with the cummings story but brought it back up when a line of attack presented itself. 

The 'left's only see the second charge and lash out.  Fighting with people at every opportunity is not a good way to convince them! Put away the anger and work on the consensus.  Unless you are only here for a pink un ruck (which is fine, just dont expect to either gain influence by doing it)

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Good job Nelson Mandela didn't have you for an adviser

[sonyc 5,491]

Perhaps the way to get this thread back on track is to have a separate "Gardiner to Black Lives Matter Protest"

#justsaying

Edited June 5, 2020 by sonyc

[Bill 1,788]

45 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

My post was a remark on the tribalism. The two incidents were just the vehicle. 

Let's not pretend that most of the posters here dont have a favoured side

Predictably the 'right' tried to make Gardiner and Cummings incidents equivalent and equally predictably the 'left' sought distinguish them. That is a very fair reading of the preceding pages.

No. That is just you trotting out your all too predictable attempt at defending a righty... in the wrong, by trying to portray valid criticism as being nothing more than tribalism.

A sort of Mandy Rice-Davis defence, that dismisses valid criticism with a 'well they would say that wouldn't they' approach.

Unfortunately for you, mein Kranke, I have read too many of your previous posts not to recognise the same 'style' - one where you try to twist what someone has said so as to refute their point, and similarly to delude yourself that somehow you have won.

As seen .there are those on here who may not question how someone with pretty much the same writing and arguing style should suddenly spring out of nowhere, supposedly having not posted on here until recently.

Which is about as plausible as Johnson not knowing that he was going too renege on his promises once the election was won.

[Barbe bleu 814]

15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Good job Nelson Mandela didn't have you for an adviser

Yep. Remind me,  Nelson Mandela was famous for not trying to reconcile with the previous administration seeing instead that violent struggle was the best means of achieving his purpose?  

And when in power he immediately set aside the economic liberalism of previous regimes for his own form of socialism and made sure that S Africa could never be described as a Rainbow Nation?

Or am I thinking of someone and somewhere else?  Hang on, consensus building is a good thing maybe....

 

[Herman 9,713]

45 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Perhaps the way to get this thread back on track is to have a separate "Gardiner to Black Lives Matter Protest"

#justsaying

🤣

[Crafty Canary 495]

19 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Funny how the Cummings bashers on here are not venting their disgust at Gardner ignoring social distancing rules. 

Pity you don't read the posts clearly. I think everyone is saying he is a terwat. But he didn't march to Durham to test his eyesight or inspect his Dad's cottage or barn or garage or compost bin or whatever they are calling the building they didn't have permission for.

He didn’t march to Durham, he drove thereby not potentially infecting hundreds unlike virtue signalling Gardner. He wasn’t inspecting anything instead he was self-isolating there. Also the angst against Cummings was monstrous compared to Gardner. It is you that doesn’t read posts clearly probably due to the red mist that seems to affect you on a regular basis.

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

He didn’t march to Durham, he drove thereby not potentially infecting hundreds unlike virtue signalling Gardner. He wasn’t inspecting anything instead he was self-isolating there. Also the angst against Cummings was monstrous compared to Gardner. It is you that doesn’t read posts clearly probably due to the red mist that seems to affect you on a regular basis.

oh dear, poor righty

I think you'll find that KG was talking about Gardiner when he referred to marching

....but well done, for trying to defend your betters

even if you did get it wrong 😆