Corona Virus main thread

[BigFish 1,986]

3 minutes ago, Ian said:

I find it interesting that people are suddenly worried about unification, when they and others have repeatedly referred to people who voted for Brexit with derogatory/racist terms such as "gammon" over the last few years. It's not like people have been desperate for civil conversation on here, or in the UK in general.

Perhaps the blame doesn't solely lie with the politicians, but in fact, we all bear some responsibility for our own actions?

At least irony isn't dead

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

What’s driven the change though purple? 

I used to think that entrenched ideologues incapable of acknowledging anything outside their view were fringe nutters. Now when you venture on to any form of social media the battle lines are drawn and it’s a fight not a debate.

When both your opponents and supporters don’t care what you will do as it will never alter their opinions no wonder politicians are such a sh1tshow.

Monty, a good question, but as others have said this valuable thread is in danger of getting swamped by stuff that is not necessarily relevant. I think you have answered it in brief anyway.

[lake district canary 4,531]

3 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Seems to me that we are going in the opposite direction and in the near future we will see an independent Scotland, a united Ireland and sadly a UK struggling badly economically and still very divided politically.

Further devolvement to the point of separation looks almost inevitable.  This all started with England and the whole British Empire has been heading back to its component parts for years. So it was originally just England, then became England and Wales, then it added Ireland and Scotland then continued expanding across the world.......but it started out with just England. I suppose you could start paring it back further and divide England up too, like Cornwall getting independence and so on. How far back it goes is open to question, but imo it is not a bad thing.

It means a different approach to politics - smaller countries who would have to work together in the common cause of mutual well being. Scotland would be better being independent from Westminster......it might be poorer, but then it would need good relations with England to boost its economy. So they might be separate, but the affiliations would still be strong  and mutually beneficial.

I'm English, but also half Scottish, but I would be happy to see an independent Scotland Ireland and Wales...and even Cornwall if it comes to that....times are changing and old structures are gradually being stripped of what holds them together. New ways of working together would emerge and England would still be strong within the overall picture. Different, but still strong - and without that sense of jingoism that is part of the English culture of thinking they own or have a right to own other countries, the English might learn to be a more humble as a nation.

 

[A Load of Squit 5,135]

If you voted Tory at the last GE, you voted for this.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-care-workers-left-out-of-leave-to-remain-scheme-jp8dzs9p0

The Home Office has provoked outrage after leaving NHS care workers and cleaners out of a bereavement scheme that will support the families of workers who die of coronavirus.

Nevermind, 10 minutes of clapping tomorrow night at 8pm will make you feel OK.

 

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

5 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

If you voted Tory at the last GE, you voted for this

I think you’ll find that most people voted Tory to make sure we left Europe and because the other option was Jeremy Corbyn 

[sonyc 5,492]

41 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Further devolvement to the point of separation looks almost inevitable.  This all started with England and the whole British Empire has been heading back to its component parts for years. So it was originally just England, then became England and Wales, then it added Ireland and Scotland then continued expanding across the world.......but it started out with just England. I suppose you could start paring it back further and divide England up too, like Cornwall getting independence and so on. How far back it goes is open to question, but imo it is not a bad thing.

It means a different approach to politics - smaller countries who would have to work together in the common cause of mutual well being. Scotland would be better being independent from Westminster......it might be poorer, but then it would need good relations with England to boost its economy. So they might be separate, but the affiliations would still be strong  and mutually beneficial.

I'm English, but also half Scottish, but I would be happy to see an independent Scotland Ireland and Wales...and even Cornwall if it comes to that....times are changing and old structures are gradually being stripped of what holds them together. New ways of working together would emerge and England would still be strong within the overall picture. Different, but still strong - and without that sense of jingoism that is part of the English culture of thinking they own or have a right to own other countries, the English might learn to be a more humble as a nation.

 

Perhaps to Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria and the Picts even! 

Tongue in cheek LDC.

It's a positive way of looking at how countries would be separate yet  strongly affiliated. We have that now (at the moment). As soon as you draw a line (metaphorically but also legally) you have one side and then another.

Get a blank piece of paper and draw a line on it. You can see that there are then two sides. This is where this UK is going.

[BigFish 1,986]

39 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

I think you’ll find that most people voted Tory to make sure we left Europe and because the other option was Jeremy Corbyn 

You got what you asked for then.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

2 hours ago, T said:

They are related though. The government was preparing for Brexit and ignored expert advice on preparing for a pandemic The government misled the public and ignored expert advice over Brexit so they are hardly reliable to deal with a pandemic. The government was selected on Brexit ideology rather than ability. Boris a weak leader is only in place because of Brexit.  Brexit was predicated on being against the essential immigrant workers who are now being applauded every week. Will the brexiteers now go out and process food to replace them? The brexiteers had a slogan but no action plan to deal with Brexit and so it has proven with the pandemic. The UKs response like Brexit has been slow and muddled resulting in more deaths and a longer deeper recession in the UK. Apparently according to the Brexiteers it is a price worth paying for so called sovereignty although they have never explained what the benefits are  in practice. Personally I’m unconvinced and think there are more important things like lives healthcare jobs the economy and dealing with a pandemic but everyone has different beliefs and priorities. 

There's a lot of truth in this.

The government was elected on a fable, a myth, a fact free fanciful wishlist. Dreamers.

It comes as no surprise (albeit we hoped for better) that this government then couldn't and still can't it seems sensibly deal with a real world emergency which can't be spun, lied too or otherwise misled. The virus doesn't care. They were so incompetent that most of them even managed to catch it themselves despite having the best informations and warning.

It bodes very badly for Brexit.

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

11 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You got what you asked for then.

I’m just making the point that people didn’t vote Tory based on the nhs scheme

[sonyc 5,492]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

There's a lot of truth in this.

The government was elected on a fable, a myth, a fact free fanciful wishlist. Dreamers.

It comes as no surprise (albeit we hoped for better) that this government then couldn't and still can't it seems sensibly deal with a real world emergency which can't be spun, lied too or otherwise misled. The virus doesn't care. They were so incompetent that most of them even managed to catch it themselves despite having the best informations and warning.

It bodes very badly for Brexit.

It's a situation that encouraged my wife to get dual nationality (and sons will be okay therefore ahead) but I will need to leave the UK and live 3 years in Ireland to gain Irish nationality. Unless Wales gets independence (one grandfather/mother) and job's a good'un.

A big upheaval but you only get one life. Lots of folk have done the same where they are able. Not everyone can.

 

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

I’m just making the point that people didn’t vote Tory based on the nhs scheme

I think had Labour presented anywhere near a reasonable opposition they would have cleaned up, so if your logic is that all those who voted Conservative are responsible for any disgusting future policy they may introduce, you can also apportion the blame to those on the hard left that kept Corbyn in power and made Labour unpalatable to the vast majority in the UK.

IMO people who hold either view don't hold them in good faith, or are particularly interested in unity or even rational political discourse between those with differing views.

[sonyc 5,492]

Labour were unelectable I agree Ian. And there is definitely a responsibility there. Plus, Corbyn was for leaving anyway. It was a shambles of a government and a shambles of an opposition. We've had a long run in! And now a pandemic is further exposing the fault lines, what is important. As I posted before, it presents an opportunity for some serious debate and a reset. Will we though?

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

A couple of things about Covid, I'd be interested to know whether it's still spreading in areas like South America or Africa, is there any update on thinking that it might be primarily affecting the temperate zones of the world, in which case we could see it go away in the summer and return in the autumn ?

 

Also what's happening in places like China, S Korea, Vietnam, Japan at the moment ?  What restrictions do they have in place, how far have they got back to normal ?

 

Latest update from Sweden on how things are going there, how's their non-lockdown approach going and have they been able to tackle the big problem in their care homes ?

 

@Well b back has been great in updating us on the Oxford vaccine progress, & there have been some comments about a vaccine in the US, but it would be great to hear more about other vaccine testing progress and any developments on drugs to treat Covid ?

 

Right... back to work !

[Well b back 3,190]

7 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

A couple of things about Covid, I'd be interested to know whether it's still spreading in areas like South America or Africa, is there any update on thinking that it might be primarily affecting the temperate zones of the world, in which case we could see it go away in the summer and return in the autumn ?

 

Also what's happening in places like China, S Korea, Vietnam, Japan at the moment ?  What restrictions do they have in place, how far have they got back to normal ?

 

Latest update from Sweden on how things are going there, how's their non-lockdown approach going and have they been able to tackle the big problem in their care homes ?

 

@Well b back has been great in updating us on the Oxford vaccine progress, & there have been some comments about a vaccine in the US, but it would be great to hear more about other vaccine testing progress and any developments on drugs to treat Covid ?

 

Right... back to work !

I can put them on the Come on Sarah thread if you want ?

As you will be aware from there the info is often available days and sometimes weeks before it becomes BBC news. I pick it up from newspapers reporting things and tweets from the Jenner group. The tweets and news on the treatment trials are on the Jenner site as well so easy for me to add that as well.

I am sure you will agree that although a lot of what goes on there is unconfirmed at the time 99 % of it becomes fact days later. A good example of that was bbc being negative about the vaccine, when Jenner at this time do not seem concerned as it does they feel protect you from the bit that kills you, but only time will tell.

And yes you are right the USA vaccine looks good. The negative is only 8 people injected so far, the positive its in the USA where I beleive if this looks like it will work they will go straight into human challenge trials ( humans having the vaccine then being injected with the virus ) because Trump will encourage this idea, as if he comes up with the vaccine before November he becomes president again for 4 years.

[Van wink 2,994]

Whoever was in Government similar choices would have been made around this pandemic, there may have been some tinkering around the edges, but the medical and scientific advice and lack of testing capacity would have been much the same. 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Whoever was in Government similar choices would have been made around this pandemic, there may have been some tinkering around the edges, but the medical and scientific advice and lack of testing capacity would have been much the same. 

 

Disagree.

Whereas the limitations would of been the same another government would of dithered less - been more focussed - powered up testing and indeed a lockdown earlier. 

Undoubtedly there were distracted by the 'B' - Johnson even had holiday - and all of these have cost real lives and much economic damage. At the time of the lock down infections were likely quadrupling every week! Even a week earlier all else equal we may have had 4 x less cases!

No - the 'charge' sticks.

[Well b back 3,190]

48 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

A couple of things about Covid, I'd be interested to know whether it's still spreading in areas like South America or Africa, is there any update on thinking that it might be primarily affecting the temperate zones of the world, in which case we could see it go away in the summer and return in the autumn ?

 

Also what's happening in places like China, S Korea, Vietnam, Japan at the moment ?  What restrictions do they have in place, how far have they got back to normal ?

 

Latest update from Sweden on how things are going there, how's their non-lockdown approach going and have they been able to tackle the big problem in their care homes ?

 

@Well b back has been great in updating us on the Oxford vaccine progress, & there have been some comments about a vaccine in the US, but it would be great to hear more about other vaccine testing progress and any developments on drugs to treat Covid ?

 

Right... back to work !

I have just updated The come on Sarah thread with the Jenner statement released overnight. It’s very positive.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I have just updated The come on Sarah thread with the Jenner statement released overnight. It’s very positive.

Brilliant, yes very happy for you to keep updating anything vaccine related you find there!

[sonyc 5,492]

1 hour ago, It's Character Forming said:

A couple of things about Covid, I'd be interested to know whether it's still spreading in areas like South America or Africa, is there any update on thinking that it might be primarily affecting the temperate zones of the world, in which case we could see it go away in the summer and return in the autumn ?

 

Also what's happening in places like China, S Korea, Vietnam, Japan at the moment ?  What restrictions do they have in place, how far have they got back to normal ?

 

Latest update from Sweden on how things are going there, how's their non-lockdown approach going and have they been able to tackle the big problem in their care homes ?

 

@Well b back has been great in updating us on the Oxford vaccine progress, & there have been some comments about a vaccine in the US, but it would be great to hear more about other vaccine testing progress and any developments on drugs to treat Covid ?

 

Right... back to work !I 

I read this last night.

A complex picture ...though it's been positive for their share price!

 

Vaccine experts say Moderna's Covid-19 data leave big questions

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/19/vaccine-experts-say-moderna-didnt-produce-data-critical-to-assessing-covid-19-vaccine/

 

[sgncfc 1,223]

As a child of the late 50s, so growing up in the 60s and 70s I don't think the country or it's opinions, whether social or political, are any more divided than they were then. Most times are a mix of upheaval and contentment and most opinions contain parts of reasonable thought plus some extremes.

If anything, those of us who have lived through the years between 1982 and 2010 are the fortunate ones as these were years of relative calm for the UK at least. But history tells us that calm is not the norm, and coronavirus is just another type of problem which a society has to deal with. People's reactions are always consistent - initial support, then questioning, then rebellion. It won't be long before the NHS come under fire for something and all the "heroes" of March and April are put back where they were before.

I think most of the people who were staunchly anti-Brexit have given up that fight. Whether we are a united country or not doesn't really matter as nothing can be changed in the long term; it's just another way along the same path.

[Well b back 3,190]

10 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Brilliant, yes very happy for you to keep updating anything vaccine related you find there!

The update I just put on is very positive. I think it hints at what we suspected that this was a bit of USA vaccine is better than yours, but please make your own mind up. Now I have seen that initial paper ( before Forbes got hold of it ) it is clear it says on the monkies it worked, via keeping it away from your lungs. The bit Forbes, bbc, itv etc are highlighting seems a bit of small print that nobody was concerned about as they even think some of this is what they are seeing in some that have tested positive twice but are not contagious.

[sonyc 5,492]

41 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Whoever was in Government similar choices would have been made around this pandemic, there may have been some tinkering around the edges, but the medical and scientific advice and lack of testing capacity would have been much the same. 

 

I believe there is a shred of truth there. We have read how Spain, France, Belgium and even Sweden have fared. The best performing countries locked down the old folk in care homes, shielding them (like the care home in Sheffield where the manager asked all staff to live in the scheme. Result, restricted entry of the virus...very commendable).

Starkey's video was also interesting to watch and pointed to the focus in the NHS because of the need to connect with the red wall north.

True, also because of the lack of infrastructure for testing and gown making which have increasingly been made abroad. Plus the 'just in time' mentality we have endured (I reckon for 20 plus years, started under Thatcher, ramped by Blair and now exposed by the last 10 years of austerity).

The biggest issue is the disconnect between central and local. Big government. And big heads running big government at that. Needed a more considered and serious leadership than has been provided. As YF noted, the virus doesn't care about such things. As a result the UK has been more exposed than it should have been (i read that in terms of excess deaths the UK tops the global table).

[Barbe bleu 816]

46 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Whoever was in Government similar choices would have been made around this pandemic, there may have been some tinkering around the edges, but the medical and scientific advice and lack of testing capacity would have been much the same. 

 

We'll never know what the alternative response would have been but I agree that the advice would likely have been the same.

Its fanciful to say that the advisors would have been distracted by Brexit when the event they have spent their entire career waiting for is on the horizon.  

The one caveat to the above is that this government or any other might have had different advice given to them had the early testing regime been different but there is no indication that the initial response was politically driven

 

[Well b back 3,190]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I read this last night.

A complex picture ...though it's been positive for their share price!

 

Vaccine experts say Moderna's Covid-19 data leave big questions

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/19/vaccine-experts-say-moderna-didnt-produce-data-critical-to-assessing-covid-19-vaccine/

 

Have a look at Jenners response that I have just put on the Come on Sarah thread straight off the press. They already knew about this on 1/5 so they ( Jenner ) do not seem remotely concerned and are now gearing up for the next phase in a couple of weeks. If we see what we have seen previously, bbc will pick up on this in a couple of weeks with their exclusive. I am not saying it will work, but there is no reason at present to be any less optimistic, despite bbc and itvs best efforts.

 After all this I am thinking I should have been an investigative journalist lol

[sonyc 5,492]

Just now, Well b back said:

Have a look at Jenners response that I have just put on the Come on Sarah thread straight off the press. They already knew about this on 1/5 so they ( Jenner ) do not seem remotely concerned and are now gearing up for the next phase in a couple of weeks. If we see what we have seen previously, bbc will pick up on this in a couple of weeks with their exclusive. I am not saying it will work, but there is no reason at present to be any less optimistic, despite bbc and itvs best efforts.

 After all this I am thinking I should have been an investigative journalist lol

Cheers Well B Back, I will. And you should be.

...as @JF is the investigative journalist for the EPL / EFL situation

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

19 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

As a child of the late 50s, so growing up in the 60s and 70s I don't think the country or it's opinions, whether social or political, are any more divided than they were then. Most times are a mix of upheaval and contentment and most opinions contain parts of reasonable thought plus some extremes.

If anything, those of us who have lived through the years between 1982 and 2010 are the fortunate ones as these were years of relative calm for the UK at least. But history tells us that calm is not the norm, and coronavirus is just another type of problem which a society has to deal with. People's reactions are always consistent - initial support, then questioning, then rebellion. It won't be long before the NHS come under fire for something and all the "heroes" of March and April are put back where they were before.

I think most of the people who were staunchly anti-Brexit have given up that fight. Whether we are a united country or not doesn't really matter as nothing can be changed in the long term; it's just another way along the same path.

No, we are following the Duke of Wellington's advice, and keeping our powder dry.

[Well b back 3,190]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I believe there is a shred of truth there. We have read how Spain, France, Belgium and even Sweden have fared. The best performing countries locked down the old folk in care homes, shielding them (like the care home in Sheffield where the manager asked all staff to live in the scheme. Result, restricted entry of the virus...very commendable).

Starkey's video was also interesting to watch and pointed to the focus in the NHS because of the need to connect with the red wall north.

True, also because of the lack of infrastructure for testing and gown making which have increasingly been made abroad. Plus the 'just in time' mentality we have endured (I reckon for 20 plus years, started under Thatcher, ramped by Blair and now exposed by the last 10 years of austerity).

The biggest issue is the disconnect between central and local. Big government. And big heads running big government at that. Needed a more considered and serious leadership than has been provided. As YF noted, the virus doesn't care about such things. As a result the UK has been more exposed than it should have been (i read that in terms of excess deaths the UK tops the global table).

The government in my opinion reacted to keep the minority with the loudest voices happy. I distinctly remember some care homes saying they were locking down and staff staying for the duration. Relatives objected to not being able to visit and the government didn’t want them upset.

Also I know 2 people since April, that went into hospital for hip problems and caught Covid in hospital. 1 was sent home with no test, died 5 days later, 1 was being discharged into a care home for their recovery, but developed a cough, so they tested and she also died from Covid 19. 24 hours earlier with no cough she would have been sent into a care home with no test.

We locked down 2 weeks to late. Would another government have done it different ? We will never know, one thing I will say however was at the beginning Boris had the same actions as Trump ie shaking hands, even where the disease already was. This with hindsight shew me he thought this was nothing more than the flu.

[Well b back 3,190]

11 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Cheers Well B Back, I will. And you should be.

...as @JF is the investigative journalist for the EPL / EFL situation

Lol

Yes there are things on there that I picked up from papers ie this vaccine even existed days before it was reported on the tv and U.K. media. 

[sonyc 5,492]

7 minutes ago, Well b back said:

The government in my opinion reacted to keep the minority with the loudest voices happy. I distinctly remember some care homes saying they were locking down and staff staying for the duration. Relatives objected to not being able to visit and the government didn’t want them upset.

Also I know 2 people since April, that went into hospital for hip problems and caught Covid in hospital. 1 was sent home with no test, died 5 days later, 1 was being discharged into a care home for their recovery, but developed a cough, so they tested and she also died from Covid 19. 24 hours earlier with no cough she would have been sent into a care home with no test.

We locked down 2 weeks to late. Would another government have done it different ? We will never know, one thing I will say however was at the beginning Boris had the same actions as Trump ie shaking hands, even where the disease already was. This with hindsight shew me he thought this was nothing more than the flu.

Sorry to hear of the two people you knew. Shocking when it hits home.

Reports are that many got C19 in hospital and even more incredible that it was exported into care homes.

Think Boris J will forever be known for the virus, defining him, much in the way Iraq defined Blair ultimately.

[Well b back 3,190]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Sorry to hear of the two people you knew. Shocking when it hits home.

Reports are that many got C19 in hospital and even more incredible that it was exported into care homes.

Think Boris J will forever be known for the virus, defining him, much in the way Iraq defined Blair ultimately.

As we speak he is coming under fire in pmqs