Corona Virus main thread

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

A politician lied you say!!!

I am shocked.

And stunned.

Yes, shocked and stunned.😉

Yes I take the point, Capitaine Renault, but before you collect your winnings, to be serious, there has been a change. It used to be that politicians would  spin, and massage statistics, and highlight the good and ignore the bad, but not indulge in outright and provable lies.

That is new. Trump has taken this to a whole new level, and Johnson and the rest of his talentless crew are not as blatant  or a s frequent as that, but Johnson simply lied about care homes, for example.

[Barbe bleu 816]

13 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

the kind of numbers you/they are talking about require effort on the part of the testee. Had this number of tests been available during the panic phase, they would have been used. I suggest most people cant be arrised to get a test unless displaying symptoms as the return times are so long that it renders the test virtually pointless......except for gathering data. They'll be offering peeps money to take a test soon.

I'm inclined to believe this.  On the website I think you can apply for a test in person or a postal test.  The change in the proportions of each might give a clue if you know where to find the numbers.

 

[Herman 9,717]

1 hour ago, Mark .Y. said:

Yeh, just hadn't heard any kind of explanation and wondered why it was. Being cynical, I guess it is something to do with the availability of some part of the tests or it would be being announced that it was somebody else's fault 😉

The thing I hear is that you can get a test IF you had or are showing symptoms. A lot of people don't, including carriers, which stops many from not bothering. 

[T 190]

Surprise surprise that the brexiteers don’t want Brexit mentioned on covid 19. Why of course because it contributed to the UK being poorly prepared, a weak government and a weak leader, and because it has has brutally exposed the need for immigrant essential workers that was at the heart of the Brexit debate   

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

40 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm inclined to believe this.  On the website I think you can apply for a test in person or a postal test.  The change in the proportions of each might give a clue if you know where to find the numbers.

 

It's all too little too late.

Testing should be now on 100,000 random tests regionally right now in addition to health and care workers plus the school children so we know what proportion  really have it and can track it.

6 PL footballers who I guess were asymptomatic. Point made.

[ricardo 7,349]

50 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes I take the point, Capitaine Renault, but before you collect your winnings, to be serious, there has been a change. It used to be that politicians would  spin, and massage statistics, and highlight the good and ignore the bad, but not indulge in outright and provable lies.

That is new. Trump has taken this to a whole new level, and Johnson and the rest of his talentless crew are not as blatant  or a s frequent as that, but Johnson simply lied about care homes, for example.

I😀😀😀

I still remember Harold Wilson telling me devaluation wouldn't affect the pound in my pocket.😀😀😀

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

UK Only country in Europe using 2m rule

Where the hell does Iain Duncan Smith get this impression from?

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

As soon as IDS sits next to someone in Parliament we can reconsider. The distancing has worked and the numbers are coming down. Why would a failure like him expect anyone to listen to him.

[Herman 9,717]

25 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

UK Only country in Europe using 2m rule

Where the hell does Iain Duncan Smith get this impression from?

 

Why is Duncan-Donut so concerned about the economy all of a sudden?

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

45 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I😀😀😀

I still remember Harold Wilson telling me devaluation wouldn't affect the pound in my pocket.😀😀😀

 

Even that was a promise or prediction that didn't come true, still not quite in the same league as a blatant lie about something that had already taken place - Johnson's was a real, proper lie and it was about something that resulted in many unnecessary deaths rather than just about the quid in your pocket (important though that is too!).

[Aggy 752]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

Why is Duncan-Donut so concerned about the economy all of a sudden?

Well to be fair, the point seems to as much be that this arbitrary 2m thing is nonsense. 
 

Of course he might have alternatively heard the government today moving away from the supposed “v” economic bounceback and instead saying not obvious there will be immediate economic bounce back. Or possibly he looked at the record number of new unemployed for April recently announced, or perhaps at the Financial Times just now suggesting  8 million employees and 2 million self employed people are currently using the furlough scheme, many of whom won’t have a job to go back to. To put that figure in context, the size of the Uk workforce is around 26 mil - so nearly 40 per cent aren’t currently working.

Or perhaps the Guardian article out today stating market experts think unemployment is likely to “at least double” again despite the furlough scheme (and that based only on people who have claimed benefits so likely to be many more unemployed not yet “in the system”), or that without the furlough scheme we’d currently have unemployment at around 20 per cent (the highest since 1971 being around 11 per cent) and that there is significant doubt as to whether many of those currently on furlough will have jobs when the furlough scheme ends....

 

[ricardo 7,349]

36 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Even that was a promise or prediction that didn't come true, still not quite in the same league as a blatant lie about something that had already taken place - Johnson's was a real, proper lie and it was about something that resulted in many unnecessary deaths rather than just about the quid in your pocket (important though that is too!).

I'll raise you Blair and the WMD's

[Barbe bleu 816]

Have we largely given up discussing coronavirus then?

[Monty13 2,229]

2 hours ago, T said:

Surprise surprise that the brexiteers don’t want Brexit mentioned on covid 19. Why of course because it contributed to the UK being poorly prepared, a weak government and a weak leader, and because it has has brutally exposed the need for immigrant essential workers that was at the heart of the Brexit debate   

I assume its because this thread is already enough of an ideological sh1tshow without cross pollinating it with Brexit to be honest.

[ricardo 7,349]

16 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Have we largely given up discussing coronavirus then?

They seem more interested in other stuff😉

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

14 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'll raise you Blair and the WMD's

Fair enough and I would highlight that Johnson has got off very lightly indeed compared to lambasting that Blair received and still does to this day.

Just shows how far standards have slipped in the last fifteen years - what caused absolute outrage right across the political spectrum then is now met by many politicans and their tame media outlets with a shrug of shoulders.

Makes me ashamed to be British actually but the really sad part is it has just become par for the course - no one is trying to pretend that politicians used to be saints but at least when they got caught behaving badly there used to be consequences, nowadays it just doesn't seem to matter. We've always known politicians sometimes (frequently?) lied but we didn't like it when it happened, whereas nowadays many voters seem perfectly happy to be lied to on a regular basis, that's the part I can't get my head around.  ☹️

[Herman 9,717]

28 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'll raise you Blair and the WMD's

And although that is a classic bit of whataboutery it is also the main reason why I am so cynical and questioning of our leadership. Why others are not is another thing. 

[Monty13 2,229]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes I take the point, Capitaine Renault, but before you collect your winnings, to be serious, there has been a change. It used to be that politicians would  spin, and massage statistics, and highlight the good and ignore the bad, but not indulge in outright and provable lies.

That is new. Trump has taken this to a whole new level, and Johnson and the rest of his talentless crew are not as blatant  or a s frequent as that, but Johnson simply lied about care homes, for example.

What’s driven the change though purple? 

I used to think that entrenched ideologues incapable of acknowledging anything outside their view were fringe nutters. Now when you venture on to any form of social media the battle lines are drawn and it’s a fight not a debate.

When both your opponents and supporters don’t care what you will do as it will never alter their opinions no wonder politicians are such a sh1tshow.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Not sure what is left to be said about Covid19. We know what it is and what it has done. All that is left is who said what.

[Barbe bleu 816]

12 minutes ago, ricardo said:

They seem more interested in other stuff😉

Yea,  I'll check in a few days

[Surfer 1,547]

29 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Not sure what is left to be said about Covid19. We know what it is and what it has done. All that is left is who said what.

And what do we do next? The status quo is unsustainable. 

[Crafty Canary 495]

3 hours ago, T said:

Surprise surprise that the brexiteers don’t want Brexit mentioned on covid 19. Why of course because it contributed to the UK being poorly prepared, a weak government and a weak leader, and because it has has brutally exposed the need for immigrant essential workers that was at the heart of the Brexit debate   

Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with covid-19 which has affected EU and non-EU nations alike. It’s saddos like you, that just cannot accept the election result that gave an overwhelming vote for a pro-Brexit government, that try to blame Brexit for the current death toll in the UK. It’s a good thing you live in Germany as you hate the country of your birth so much. 

[Herman 9,717]

7 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Not sure what is left to be said about Covid19. We know what it is and what it has done. All that is left is who said what.

It's as if some don't want to be reminded of something. Not sure what though? 😉

[Mark .Y. 351]

7 hours ago, Monty13 said:

What’s driven the change though purple? 

I used to think that entrenched ideologues incapable of acknowledging anything outside their view were fringe nutters. Now when you venture on to any form of social media the battle lines are drawn and it’s a fight not a debate.

When both your opponents and supporters don’t care what you will do as it will never alter their opinions no wonder politicians are such a sh1tshow.

Agree with a lot of this, what happened to a balanced view and the ability to see both sides of an argument. 

Guess it has to be led from the top, but we may be waiting for a long time.

Regarding Johnson, FWIW, my opinion is that he will "resign" from his position in the next year or so (maybe after he has delivered Brexit, but maybe before) to spend more time with his partner and new baby.

[Herman 9,717]

What happened 4 years ago has divided the populace so much that I'm not sure what can bring about unification. If a disaster like this can't then we're in trouble. 

The legacy of David Cameron. No wonder he hides in a shed. 

[T 190]

8 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I assume its because this thread is already enough of an ideological sh1tshow without cross pollinating it with Brexit to be honest.

They are related though. The government was preparing for Brexit and ignored expert advice on preparing for a pandemic The government misled the public and ignored expert advice over Brexit so they are hardly reliable to deal with a pandemic. The government was selected on Brexit ideology rather than ability. Boris a weak leader is only in place because of Brexit.  Brexit was predicated on being against the essential immigrant workers who are now being applauded every week. Will the brexiteers now go out and process food to replace them? The brexiteers had a slogan but no action plan to deal with Brexit and so it has proven with the pandemic. The UKs response like Brexit has been slow and muddled resulting in more deaths and a longer deeper recession in the UK. Apparently according to the Brexiteers it is a price worth paying for so called sovereignty although they have never explained what the benefits are  in practice. Personally I’m unconvinced and think there are more important things like lives healthcare jobs the economy and dealing with a pandemic but everyone has different beliefs and priorities. 

[sonyc 5,492]

1 hour ago, Mark .Y. said:

Agree with a lot of this, what happened to a balanced view and the ability to see both sides of an argument. 

Guess it has to be led from the top, but we may be waiting for a long time.

Regarding Johnson, FWIW, my opinion is that he will "resign" from his position in the next year or so (maybe after he has delivered Brexit, but maybe before) to spend more time with his partner and new baby.

I'm in agreement with Monty, Mark and Herman in these 3 posts. How can that be! It's because the views expressed are all valid and part of the explanation.

And 'it' has split the nation like a cleaver. Instead of a coming together as a nation, instead of improving on your intellectual and psychological capital as a society, (because, you know, that is what you might try to achieve  as a goal... how we might live ethically, responsibly, collaboratively in the 2020s....something any conservative one nation type or a socialistic person might actually agree with ) we have a deep psychological division. One based on ideology but only in part, mostly formed on power and self interest. I keep reading the word fascism...well it thrives on economic problems and societal breakdown. History repeats (read Erich Fromm). We are not in that place yet.

You see the division in these very posts even though we are talking about a pandemic. The latter is the prism in this instance.

It's deeply depressing. We are going backwards. Worse, we are going there in top gear. And a lot of folk are happy to go there or they are blindfolded. That's how it seems.

Now, there is one tiny window (bringing this back to C19 and perhaps one of its meanings) and that is a chance in a crisis to formulate a new vision for what we want in the country, one that can take most people with it. I read enough on here to know there are not just fault lines but areas of agreement (I try to be an optimist by nature!). Yet, that window is small and will soon shut again.

Apologies for a long-ish post. These things go deep. There again, I'm sure they do for most of us. This is idealism I realise.

My question is what should this pandemic mean for us? That's one question that should bring this thread to a debate about what is important. In a way the whole thread has been answering that all along, unless some folk want a purely epidemiological focus, in which case, perhaps that needs its own title "Coronavirus thread, Epidemiology" for the purists here! (always try to end a post on a positive and a light comment).

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

58 minutes ago, Herman said:

What happened 4 years ago has divided the populace so much that I'm not sure what can bring about unification. If a disaster like this can't then we're in trouble. 

The legacy of David Cameron. No wonder he hides in a shed. 

Definitely Cameron's legacy and whilst the referendum certainly made the divisions deeper and more bitter I think the main fault lines were already there - driven by the failed Tory austerity economics and their disregard for the vulnerable in society, plus their total contempt for the devolved administrations. All things which May and subsequently Johnson doubled down on so I can't see that there is anything (or anybody) in UK 2020 that is capable of unifying the country.

Seems to me that we are going in the opposite direction and in the near future we will see an independent Scotland, a united Ireland and sadly a mini (and not united) UK struggling badly economically and still very divided politically.

Interesting that the virus has, if anything, has actually highlighted the divisions rather than led to any unity, with Scotland, NI and even Wales asserting very strongly their own authority in devolved matters and openly criticising Johnson for suggesting he was speaking for the whole of the UK when in reality he was only speaking for England.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Creative Midfielder
Missed a bit out!

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

Regarding Johnson, FWIW, my opinion is that he will "resign" from his position in the next year or so (maybe after he has delivered Brexit, but maybe before) to spend more time with his partner and new baby.

That is not really in this character. He had to be taken to court to even acknowledge his last (I think!!) child and his daughter is on record as describing him as a selfish ****. He wanted to be World king and is likely to hold on to that, particularly while he retains popular support from the Boris fanboys anf girls. Ultimately it matters little whether he stays or goes, the previous Conservative Parties have gone, both the old one nation and the Thatcherite laissez-faire versions. He has remade the party as the new Brexit Party and denuded it of talent and experience.

Edited May 20, 2020 by BigFish
ce

[Ian 1,129]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

What happened 4 years ago has divided the populace so much that I'm not sure what can bring about unification. If a disaster like this can't then we're in trouble. 

The legacy of David Cameron. No wonder he hides in a shed. 

I find it interesting that people are suddenly worried about unification, when they and others have repeatedly referred to people who voted for Brexit with derogatory/racist terms such as "gammon" over the last few years. It's not like people have been desperate for civil conversation on here, or in the UK in general.

Perhaps the blame doesn't solely lie with the politicians, but in fact, we all bear some responsibility for our own actions?