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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

🤨🤨🤨

Even I know this is not true, Herman. You don't put a protective ring around care homes by filling them with covid patients!

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OK. Here we have another problem with the Government - aided by the press - having basically trashed its reputation for honesty. 

It seems that the R rate has bifurcated - there is one (high) number for care homes and hospitals, and another (low) for the general population. So why oh why is the Government blending those values to report an overall R rate? If it's below 0.5 for the general public, let's get as many people back to work as we can. If it's above 1 for care homes and hospitals let's come up with a plan for those.... 

.... this (Telegraph of all people) commentary couldn't be more misleading if it tried.... why not write up the news the other way around ? Like this in red text below 

Covid-19 viral transmission in the community is now very low the Government said on Friday, but this good news was offset by caution that transmission remains a problems in care homes and hospitals which caused a slight rise in the overall R number. 

Ministers said that as a result ......  

Britain’s infection rate has risen, the Government said on Friday, driven by care homes and hospitals, while transmission in the community is now very low.

The Government Office for Science announced that the latest ‘R’ number range for the UK is now 0.7 to 1.0, up from 0.5 to 0.9 last weekend. 

 

Edited by Surfer
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In Germany you Must have Heath and Care Home insurance. UK probably needs to go in that direction if they are going to address the issue. 

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18 minutes ago, Herman said:

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OK. Now I officially hate Matt Hancock for being the total liar that he reveals himself to be here.

My mother's funeral is next Friday after she died in her Care Home with none of her family allowed to be present. Did she have Covid - we will never know because they were not testing people in Care Homes.

You Know, if just one of them came out and said: "We had the impossible task of deciding who to prioritise to protect the NHS, and this lead to the problem we now know has arisen in Care Homes across the Nation. And we are sorry." I would forgive them and not fantasise about punching one of them in their smug lying faces .

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From the Independent 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-london-lowest-rate-infection-uk-a9515761.html

Broken down by region, London has an average R value of 0.4, which means for every 10 people who become infected with the virus, they pass it on to four other people. In the northeast and Yorkshire, the average R value doubles to 0.8, followed by 0.76 in the south west.

Followed by - 

The Department of Health (DoH) said in a statement in response to the figures: “Our current estimates of R are broadly consistent across the UK, although we cannot rule out it being different in different regions and nations.”

That is a nonsensical comment - unless they are challenging the numbers, and presumable the numbers are theirs - an R of 0.4 is not "broadly consistent" with an R of 0.8. This is why the media need to hold their feet to the fire every day to uncover the actual truth. I accept that politically, it may be very uncomfortable to say "we are going to allow London to go back to work, but you lot up North have to stay at home", but that is what the science is indicating..... 

 

 

 

Edited by Surfer

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3 hours ago, Bagster said:

If you believe mainstream media is unbiased, maybe you should watch this

 

 

Many thanks for that Bagster. Peterson & Paglia are particular favourites of mine.

A narrative:

There has always been a tension between men & women due to the imbalance of physical strength. This has been counterbalanced by women's desirability, which is tied up with the fact they have children. The most successful societies have developed to contain the various imbalances between all the members by means of hierarchical structures which are understood & generally accepted as being reasonable (although obviously challenged by the marginalised) . These hierarchies are, however, dynamic & become disrupted by external factors & the evolution of technology.

Modern technology, the application of scientific method to provide better ways of making goods, has changed our ability to produce material wealth at a rapidly accelerating rate. This has reduced the dependence on male strength & generally reduced the amount of time women have to spend maintaining a home & nurturing children.

The same rise of technology - this time applied to warfare - has enabled mass slaughter on unprecedented scales, ending with the ultimate threat of total annihilation via nuclear weapons. This has led to a total loss of confidence in masculinity (albeit the same masculinity that brought the beneficial technology) & the rise of the feminine influence in modern society.

Time will tell if this is for good or  ill. Personally I suspect the overall effect is mostly beneficial, although the replacement of objective truth with emotional response is to be deplored & will have negative consequences. Certainly not as bad as nuclear annihilation though.

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28 minutes ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

OK. Now I officially hate Matt Hancock for being the total liar that he reveals himself to be here.

My mother's funeral is next Friday after she died in her Care Home with none of her family allowed to be present. Did she have Covid - we will never know because they were not testing people in Care Homes.

You Know, if just one of them came out and said: "We had the impossible task of deciding who to prioritise to protect the NHS, and this lead to the problem we now know has arisen in Care Homes across the Nation. And we are sorry." I would forgive them and not fantasise about punching one of them in their smug lying faces .

Sorry to hear about your mother 

I have elderly parents, and I worry I might not see them again 

All these statistics and estimates flying around: They are our families, friends and neighbours 😔

 

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42 minutes ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

OK. Now I officially hate Matt Hancock for being the total liar that he reveals himself to be here.

My mother's funeral is next Friday after she died in her Care Home with none of her family allowed to be present. Did she have Covid - we will never know because they were not testing people in Care Homes.

You Know, if just one of them came out and said: "We had the impossible task of deciding who to prioritise to protect the NHS, and this lead to the problem we now know has arisen in Care Homes across the Nation. And we are sorry." I would forgive them and not fantasise about punching one of them in their smug lying faces .

Really sorry to hear THB. That is very sad news (my mum died at the end of January in a nursing home too...no known actual cause). I'm so sad about the funeral because it's a very important rite.

I agree 100% about straightforward honesty and real apologies. It's what ennobles people and humanity. Empathy. Yet this government don't seem able to even go halfway there. 

This situation is happening up and down the country. People won't forget either.

Condolences to you and your family.

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8 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

You're coming over a bit condescending VW.

I could argue that you are saying a second wave is inevitable.........but the Danish CMO or Chief Epidemeologist (one of those type of people  ) said quite clearly the other day that he does not expect a second wave and yet you are announcing it as "inevitable" ??

So why has the Chancellor extended furlough until October? That would indicate they feel the virus could take a long time to reach a "safe" level or they fear a second wave in autumn.

 

Or because the economy isn’t going to suddenly spring back to where it was after lockdown? They’ve said from July it will change so there is more burden on the company employers - which strongly suggests the reason for the extension is to gradually build people back in rather than lifting lockdown, stopping furlough and then companies making millions of people redundant because they still can’t afford salaries for three months until things pick back up.

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1 hour ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

OK. Now I officially hate Matt Hancock for being the total liar that he reveals himself to be here.

My mother's funeral is next Friday after she died in her Care Home with none of her family allowed to be present. Did she have Covid - we will never know because they were not testing people in Care Homes.

You Know, if just one of them came out and said: "We had the impossible task of deciding who to prioritise to protect the NHS, and this lead to the problem we now know has arisen in Care Homes across the Nation. And we are sorry." I would forgive them and not fantasise about punching one of them in their smug lying faces .

Truly sorry for your loss and fully agree with what you say.

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"Deaths are reliable figures, less subject to biases than some other measures, but they reflect the infection rates that were occurring about three weeks previously and so do not give a dynamic reflection of where things are."

Yet these guesses are being treated as some sort of infallible 'word of god' by some of the hard of thinking. And to emphasise this we have

"However, the extent of the differences varies, meaning that an optimistic estimate for London cannot be relied on too heavily."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/regional-differences-in-covid-19-transmission-rate-emerge-in-england

Whereas it is being relied upon very heavily. Ignoring the train spotters on here, this is what is forming the basis of government direction. Which begs the question, what were the figures that were used to have Hancock say that  ?

"the risk to the public remains low"

Or that lockdown was not needed as herd immunity would do the job. Which 35,000 plus deaths demonstrate that either the numbers were wrong, or the way they were chosen to be interpreted (presented, more like) was dangerously flawed. And no matter how far up Johnson's  lower colon you have crawled something here is, and was, dramatically wrong

We need to know on what basis (numbers) that advice was given

Edited by Bill

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4 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

Wcorkcanary, he is a windup merchant. He just loves taking a fixed view so he gets reactions and can abuse people in return. I blocked him as I can’t be bothered with his utter tripe.

I know  Craftyo , just sometimes  I have had enough of his self agrandisment and relentless  gibbering . I have no idea of his age, but couldn't he do something useful with all this superior knowledge and insight ?  My method of dealing with such people is to let off my steam at them then disengage, nothing annoys a narcissist  as much as not giving them the opportunity  to show how right they  are  . So I don't block him , I take a quick  shot and retire to my haven of P &T..He hates it. 👌

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5 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I know  Craftyo , just sometimes  I have had enough of his self agrandisment and relentless  gibbering . I have no idea of his age, but couldn't he do something useful with all this superior knowledge and insight ?  My method of dealing with such people is to let off my steam at them then disengage, nothing annoys a narcissist  as much as not giving them the opportunity  to show how right they  are  . So I don't block him , I take a quick  shot and retire to my haven of P &T..He hates it. 👌

blimey, a 5 hour break by jerkcanary and then up he pops up within a minute of my posting

odd thing these 'coincidences' 😂

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4 hours ago, Bill said:

Wcorkcanary, he is a windup merchant. He just loves taking a fixed view so he gets reactions and can abuse people in return. I blocked him as I can’t be bothered with his utter tripe.

 

4 hours ago, Bill said:

ooops, there's another coincidence

an angry righty who just happened by to agree with another anget right whining about how awful Bill is

odd that he had not posted for over 28 hours or so before

yep, another one of those coincidences

You have me down as a righty.... because  I think you are a toxic  narcissist? .  Think again Silly Billy , wrong again. And again and again.......ad nauseam.   The reason people post sporadically is because  they have lives, outside of this forum. Goodnight. 

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1 minute ago, Bill said:

blimey, a 5 hour break by jerkcanary and then up he pops up within a minute of my posting

odd thing these 'coincidences' 😂

Like I said, ive got a life , family, garden , hobbies , need I go on? 

Now go to bed.

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but just happen to take a break from this life at the exact moment I return

to post an attack on me - using a writing style used by another of your aliases

now why not try to add to the discussion or take yourself off to your other life, as I am sure folk have made up their mind about me by now

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3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Like I said, ive got a life , family, garden , hobbies , need I go on? 

Now go to bed.

but still find time to pop up on here the minute I re-appear 😂

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That was the week that was.

This week, a govt minister promoted far right lies & went unpunished. The Prime Minister & the Health Secretary lied about care homes. Johnson was shown to have lied about customs checks in Northern Ireland. Teachers were maligned, lockdown chaos escalated & the R number went up.

 

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3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

That was the week that was.

This week, a govt minister promoted far right lies & went unpunished. The Prime Minister & the Health Secretary lied about care homes. Johnson was shown to have lied about customs checks in Northern Ireland. Teachers were maligned, lockdown chaos escalated & the R number went up.

 

It makes you wonder at which point the British public realise they have been taken for fools. What do you expect from a group which has systematically lied to the public for the last few years, ignored expert advice and acted against the interests of the British public and show no sign of stopping. It seems you really can fool some of the people all of the time and that some is a large number but not all of the people all of the time. 

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Two very dry articles copied here, perhaps even boring to some. There are more salacious and partial articles in papers today but these two struck home for me the nub of a particular problem that's been bothering me for weeks...coordination.

They demonstrate two views from the Royal College of GPs and local government (Municipal Journal) how centralised the response by government has been. They get to the heart of what joined up, collaborative working is all about.

Instead we hear of chaotic, quixotic responses that constantly are changing, not planned or serious or strategic. You have a local government structure for a purpose...to carry out your policies on the ground. In testing you need an in-depth understanding of how things work. You're not managing a pandemic to try and make yourself look good, tell people how well you're doing or to set arbitrary targets. You're in government in this instance to save actual lives. 

We are witnessing perhaps the most incompetent piece of government certainly in my lifetime. If it wasn't so utterly devastating and sad I would be very angry.

If only someone had a sense of leadership to say "we are struggling with all of this and these are the things we must learn". Instead we hear about protective rings round the care sector and vapid utterances like "there's more to do". Well tell us then what there is to do and do it.

I had a role many moons ago in being part of emergency planning across a city region. You had to know lots of people, contacts, how things work. You had to communicate regularly. It was hard work. You had to learn about roles of others. You couldn't manage anything in a centrist way.

This government I'm more convinced by the day in what I read and see with my own eyes from their messaging, is largely incompetent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-test-uk-matt-hancock-test-nhs-gp-a9517916.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/disaster-planners-condemn-government-controlling-approach-coronavirus-crisis?

 

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Fully agree with that well written piece Sonyc. The contrast in approach I’m seeing on a daily basis is appalling. Teachers is another example where elsewhere it is dealt with by agreement and consultation  rather than central imposition. This was a government that was elected based on ideology lies slogans and soundbites rather than boring practical reality and it is being horribly exposed. 

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11 minutes ago, T said:

Fully agree with that well written piece Sonyc. The contrast in approach I’m seeing on a daily basis is appalling. Teachers is another example where elsewhere it is dealt with by agreement and consultation  rather than central imposition. This was a government that was elected based on ideology lies slogans and soundbites rather than boring practical reality and it is being horribly exposed. 

Thank you T. The real truth though for me is that I wish it wasn't being exposed for what is happening. I can accept failures, mis-steps. No government is perfect. No government in modern times has had to deal with something like this. Yet, on how not to handle something, to me anyway, this is what you do. It's harder and harder to defend.

I'm a bit old fashioned and perhaps deferential in trying to be a good citizen. Many people are. It's something about the English psyche ... in part (that keep calm cr*p).

I want a government to act the role of a decent parent (psychologically I mean). If it does this successfully then I know society I live in will be alright. With austerity and denuding of public services and this current lot, I'm less convinced our UK society is going the right way. I see big civil disruptions ahead. I want a quiet life!

Apologies for this perhaps pseudo-psychological post. Time to come off a forum and enjoy the day!

Edited by sonyc
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15 minutes ago, T said:

Fully agree with that well written piece Sonyc. The contrast in approach I’m seeing on a daily basis is appalling. Teachers is another example where elsewhere it is dealt with by agreement and consultation  rather than central imposition. This was a government that was elected based on ideology lies slogans and soundbites rather than boring practical reality and it is being horribly exposed. 

T, I know you are busy old boy(girl?) but try and find time to answer the questions. It adds substance to your pov. As you have said previously, debate is healthy.

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Well I’m clearly not busy like a lot of people at the moment. Hopefully work restarts next week but not expecting much until after summer holidays.

 

i fully agree I’m all up for robust debate bacause sometimes I do read something that contradicts my views which I haven’t thought of and it changes my views which is a good thing.  But the absolute headbangers and specific personal abuse are on ignore or I just scroll past to be honest so i will try and answer honest questions and challenges but there is some not worth bothering with. Normally most people you can find some common ground with but social media and politics is very polarised. 

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I read this forum a lot. Who are the headbangers and where is the specific personal abuse. Please let me know as that is unacceptable and I'll block them to. All seems fairly friendly and tame to me. 

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43 minutes ago, T said:

Well I’m clearly not busy like a lot of people at the moment. Hopefully work restarts next week but not expecting much until after summer holidays.

 

i fully agree I’m all up for robust debate bacause sometimes I do read something that contradicts my views which I haven’t thought of and it changes my views which is a good thing.  But the (1)absolute headbangers and specific personal abuse are on ignore or I just scroll past to be honest so i will try and answer honest questions and challenges but (2)there is some not worth bothering with. Normally most people you can find some common ground with but social media and politics is very polarised. 

(1) Oh I see, do you mean people that don't agree with you and challenge your opinion and ask you to justify those comments? Who exactly are you talking about btw?

(2) Because they call you out and will make your original comments look silly? 

"Clearly a lot here would rather just people died than hear the truth" Wow, what sort of intellectual level are you on? That is an all time low, even for you.

You are so desperate to have people join you on your self appointed pedestal, and when people don't match your views, you resort to some incredible retorts and personal insults of your own. I thought you would have realised from a few years ago. You have learned nothing.

 

 

Edited by Crabbycanary3
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17 minutes ago, C Goodenough said:

I read this forum a lot. Who are the headbangers and where is the specific personal abuse. Please let me know as that is unacceptable and I'll block them to. All seems fairly friendly and tame to me. 

That's a fair comment CG. I haven't (to my knowledge!) had any problems with anyone on here, and I have knocked around here for a few years now. 

I do not have a problem at all with people's views differing to my own, but this is not what my, and now other's,  issue with T is about.

I have never crossed swords with Bill for example, not even come close (sorry Bill but I am using you as an example of someone who has had their fair amount of 'ding dongs' on here, but there are others of course) . That is not, patently, because I do not want to challenge him/them, on the contrary, I am a person who will happily stand up for good values, common decency, respect and morals, and I will stand, face to face and challenge anyone whom I can show is betraying the most basic of human behaviour.  T lives in a bubble and despite his/her protestations that he/she is a person for all people, regularly shows him/her self up as one eyed and contradictory. I am just one , of a few on here, who have spoken against that.

 

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I don't think there are any "headbangers" here. Take a look at other football forums and see the difference.

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