Corona Virus main thread

[T 190]

4 hours ago, sonyc said:

Read her piece last night. She is someone who is the sharpest of knives in the knife draw. She gets to the heart of a story and particularly anyone with a front or showing dishonesty or a sense of entitlement. She skewered Corbyn before and rightly and now Johnson. Her humour is dark, wicked. 

It's voices like hers that are important. There aren't too many around. We are living through such a pivotal point in history and it's all going on in front of our eyes in our government. It is difficult to grasp (for the lay person like me) and accommodate ALL the meanings underneath what we are seeing because we select according to our confirmation bias. Journalists like Hyde help to expose hypocrisy.

 

Thanks. Missed that previously. Always an entertaining and amusing read even if don’t always agree but that was a really cutting assessment of Boris. I suspect he will be ditched at the first opportune moment. His biography will not reflect well on him or his supporters. However you look at the numbers they are awful. If there was ever a right time for the Boris and the Brexiteers Band to play it certainly isn’t now. The UK is at least a couple of months behind other countries which are opening up on lower cases rather than economic desperation. 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

6 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

I know, I know........ but in a slightly masochistic way, I think I might be enjoying it 😂

Oh no! Quick, team, we we need an urgent intervention here. Mark Y has broken the record for going through from Stage One (Total bafflement) and then Stage Two (making the mistake of attempting to communicate on a reasonable level) and now right through Stage Three (shouting at the computer)  and Stage Four (accosting strangers in the street like a crazy person) to the penultimate Stage Five (being so far gone as to imagine this h*llish vortex of mental torture is actually fun), with only Stage Six (inexorable descent into total madness ) left.

[sonyc 5,492]

25 minutes ago, T said:

Thanks. Missed that previously. Always an entertaining and amusing read even if don’t always agree but that was a really cutting assessment of Boris. I suspect he will be ditched at the first opportune moment. His biography will not reflect well on him or his supporters. However you look at the numbers they are awful. If there was ever a right time for the Boris and the Brexiteers Band to play it certainly isn’t now. The UK is at least a couple of months behind other countries which are opening up on lower cases rather than economic desperation. 

Well....Johnson polarises. Yet under his watch so far they have got two things right I think. The NHS hasn't  been overwhelmed. The staff are tired and traumatised reading the papers but their reputation has been enhanced and I'm reading more people want to join the NHS. Something good to come out from it. Secondly, the business package has been more sure-footed, mostly timely. You have to expect things not to be smooth. This is big stuff. Sunak is coming out of this pandemic with an enhanced reputation. He speaks clearly and you sense, honestly. He says things as it is, even when pushed. The others, so much less so. He will soon have the task of steering out of the recession.

Johnson will now always be linked to Coronavirus, having caught it and later for his leadership in any inquiry. In my opinion he is the wrong kind of leader for this occasion. I am in agreement with journalists like Hyde and Crace on the person. I have to confess though I prayed for him (not in a purely religious sense) that he didn't die when in ICU. I don't believe he is evil! Just self centred.

I hope they get a break though. Like nurses and medical staff, the government need it too. Mark Y posted that there hadn't been second waves in countries ahead of the UK in releasing lockdown in his readings. That is really hopeful regardless of what is going in with testing, PPE, vaccine development. I keep hoping the virus will weaken.

As for Brexit T, it's over, it's going to happen and in my view you now have to look forward. The EU will face big challenges from all this. Perhaps, who knows, the UK is free of it (and I was in the remain camp). 

Pandemic, a recession, deaths...Brexit ....what a 2020 so far. Another worry is the union and potential break up. The unification of Ireland perhaps later? We will be little England. 

Just realised I'm going on. Rambling now.

Edited May 13, 2020 by sonyc

[Mark .Y. 351]

17 minutes ago, T said:

Thanks. Missed that previously. Always an entertaining and amusing read even if don’t always agree but that was a really cutting assessment of Boris. I suspect he will be ditched at the first opportune moment. His biography will not reflect well on him or his supporters. However you look at the numbers they are awful. If there was ever a right time for the Boris and the Brexiteers Band to play it certainly isn’t now. The UK is at least a couple of months behind other countries which are opening up on lower cases rather than economic desperation. 

T,

I do actually agree with you over Boris, as in I certainly don't think he will still be in his job in 18 mths-2 years - I think he will "resign" from the position citing the need to spend more time with his partner and son. 

But I don't understand your need to mention the "Brexiteers Band" which has little to do with the point you are making.

But, on that main point, we are certainly not "at least a couple of months" behind other countries which are opening up, we may be a matter of 3 weeks or so behind but that would be about it. Also worth noting that when Spain recommenced construction and manufacturing just over a month ago they had around 4-5000 new cases a day and over 500 deaths a day.

[sonyc 5,492]

3 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

T,

I do actually agree with you over Boris, as in I certainly don't think he will still be in his job in 18 mths-2 years - I think he will "resign" from the position citing the need to spend more time with his partner and son. 

But I don't understand your need to mention the "Brexiteers Band" which has little to do with the point you are making.

But, on that main point, we are certainly not "at least a couple of months" behind other countries which are opening up, we may be a matter of 3 weeks or so behind but that would be about it. Also worth noting that when Spain recommenced construction and manufacturing just over a month ago they had around 4-5000 new cases a day and over 500 deaths a day.

Yep, need to give up on the Brexit stuff in the context of the pandemic. 

[T 190]

9 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

T,

I do actually agree with you over Boris, as in I certainly don't think he will still be in his job in 18 mths-2 years - I think he will "resign" from the position citing the need to spend more time with his partner and son. 

But I don't understand your need to mention the "Brexiteers Band" which has little to do with the point you are making.

But, on that main point, we are certainly not "at least a couple of months" behind other countries which are opening up, we may be a matter of 3 weeks or so behind but that would be about it. Also worth noting that when Spain recommenced construction and manufacturing just over a month ago they had around 4-5000 new cases a day and over 500 deaths a day.

UK cases are still very high and they really need to sort out the test and trace where they have only started recruiting Why.? Ideally you would keep heavy restrictions in place until you are down to hundreds rather than thousands of cases and then release and keep low with track and trace. The UK is a t least a couple of the best performing countries on this.
 

Other countries are planning on taking my Euros summer but not desperate enough to take sterling as Hancock has indicated. 

[Van wink 2,994]

“ Ideally you would keep heavy restrictions in place until you are down to hundreds rather than thousands of cases and then release and keep low with track and trace”

yep

Edited May 13, 2020 by Van wink

[sonyc 5,492]

The pandemic is placing a strain on the United Kingdom. Not everyone happy with Scotland's approach either. Are Scotland, Wales and N Ireland playing the virus for their own ends?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/13/boris-johnson-prime-minister-england-coronavirus?

[Crafty Canary 495]

2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Saving Marina for a quiet moment later in the day, maybe a glass of vino and canapes for our little tete a tete.  

From the article I have just read it seems she has her head so far up her ar$e that she actually believes the utter twaddle she writes. Of course I should have expected no better from a Guardian journalist.

[sonyc 5,492]

55 minutes ago, T said:

UK cases are still very high and they really need to sort out the test and trace where they have only started recruiting Why.? Ideally you would keep heavy restrictions in place until you are down to hundreds rather than thousands of cases and then release and keep low with track and trace. The UK is a t least a couple of the best performing countries on this.
 

Other countries are planning on taking my Euros summer but not desperate enough to take sterling as Hancock has indicated. 

I was of the view that relaxation would only take place when new numbers were in the hundreds? Wasn't that what was said in a previous briefing?

[sonyc 5,492]

5 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

From the article I have just read it seems she has her head so far up her ar$e that she actually believes the utter twaddle she writes. Of course I should have expected no better from a Guardian journalist.

Yes, she won't be everyone's cup of tea. She skirts around the line of satire.

Edited May 13, 2020 by sonyc

[Mark .Y. 351]

1 hour ago, T said:

UK cases are still very high and they really need to sort out the test and trace where they have only started recruiting Why.? Ideally you would keep heavy restrictions in place until you are down to hundreds rather than thousands of cases and then release and keep low with track and trace. The UK is a t least a couple of the best performing countries on this.
 

Other countries are planning on taking my Euros summer but not desperate enough to take sterling as Hancock has indicated. 

Aren't plenty of restrictions still in place ??

Plenty of other European countries don't have this huge test and trace system in place but they are further down the line at opening up than us. Whilst I don't disagree that it would be good and anything that can help is more than welcome for me, that still doesn't take away the fact that these other countries obviously don't feel the same need that you do for it.

I'm not actually sure on what you are saying in your last paragraph ??

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Mark .Y. said:

T,

I do actually agree with you over Boris, as in I certainly don't think he will still be in his job in 18 mths-2 years - I think he will "resign" from the position citing the need to spend more time with his partner and son. 

But I don't understand your need to mention the "Brexiteers Band" which has little to do with the point you are making.

But, on that main point, we are certainly not "at least a couple of months" behind other countries which are opening up, we may be a matter of 3 weeks or so behind but that would be about it. Also worth noting that when Spain recommenced construction and manufacturing just over a month ago they had around 4-5000 new cases a day and over 500 deaths a day.

Nothing wrong with @T using the term "Brexiteers Band" at all, even within this context. It plays a part of reading the politics of the virus & the resulting economic challengers. Johnson packed his cabinet with politicians whose only qualifications were they were sycophantically loyal and monomanically pro-Brexit. The country has paid the price of being led by a group lacking the ability to manage in a crisis. Instead of remedying this the Brexit Band have circled the wagons and doubled down on this. It is only a month and a half before the Brexit trade deal needs to be agreed and no progress has been made. The idea that the country can get back to work and the economy recover while undergoing Brexit would seem increasingly unlikely. Those who say now is not the time to identify failures are wrong, the time is now, it is urgent that this governments performance improves dramatically.

Edited May 13, 2020 by BigFish

[Herman 9,717]

16 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, she won't be everyone's cup of tea. She skirts around the line of satire.

Probably a bit too near the truth for some.😀

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

10 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, she won't be everyone's cup of tea. She skirts the line with satire.

I think she comes across as a Boris supporter. I'd be much ruder about him and his bunch of incompetent yes-people.

Saw Liz Truss in the paper today, spouting some rubbish to try and justify a Free Trade Agreement with the US - how can an MP with a Rural Constituency wish such an economic disaster upon the major industry in her patch?

Still at least we now know that she is still alive and not been struck down by "the Virus". We can have no idea whether George Freeman is still breathing given his lack of media presence these last few months.

Unfortunately anyone with any ability uses it outside of politics, and the old adage about teachers now applies to politicians instead:

"Those with no talent go into politics". 

[Mark .Y. 351]

3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Nothing wrong with @T using the term "Brexiteers Band" at all, even within this context. It plays a part of reading the politics of the virus & the resulting economic challengers. Johnson packed his cabinet with politicians whose only qualifications were they were sycophantically loyal and monomanically pro-Brexit. The country has paid the price of being led by a group lacking the ability to manage in a crisis. Instead of remedying this the Brexit Band have circled the wagons and doubled down on this. It is only a month and a half before the Brexit trade deal needs to be agreed and no progress has been made. The idea that the country can get back to work and the economy recover while undergoing Brexit would seem increasingly unlikely. Those who now is not the time to identify failures are wrong, the time is now, it is urgent that this governments performance improves dramatically.

It bought nothing to "T"s statement at all

[Surfer 1,547]

15 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is only a month and a half before the Brexit trade deal needs to be agreed and no progress has been made. The idea that the country can get back to work and the economy recover while undergoing Brexit would seem increasingly unlikely. 

Still a long way to go on Brexit. Starmer has clearly got Boris rattled, and he's a totally different kettle of fish to Corbyn as far as acceptability to business leaders go. Will the UK crash out of the EU w/o a deal? Not if the leaders of finance and industry see a major downside from staying with Boris rather than re-aligning behind Starmer. Sunak is going to be the key to the whole thing, he's the only one on the Government side who has come out with any credit so far, will his credibility carry over to Brexit negotiations, as Boris's bluster won't survive a disastrous Covid healthcare response AND a potential run on the Pound. So let's check back in on this in a month's time.... 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Surfer

[BigFish 1,986]

11 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

It bought nothing to "T"s statement at all

On that we must disagree.

For example it is becomming increasingly clear the older people have been sacrificed in order to protect the NHS. Why? Because the government couldn't be seen to have reduced the NHS to a degree it couldn't cope with the crisis. In effect the discharging of the elderly into care homes seeded the virus in that sector. This was a political decision by the Brexit Band. In effect we have a higher death rate than was necessary so we can have empty beds in hospitals.

[Mark .Y. 351]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

On that we must disagree.

For example it is becomming increasingly clear the older people have been sacrificed in order to protect the NHS. Why? Because the government couldn't be seen to have reduced the NHS to a degree it couldn't cope with the crisis. In effect the discharging of the elderly into care homes seeded the virus in that sector. This was a political decision by the Brexit Band. In effect we have a higher death rate than was necessary so we can have empty beds in hospitals.

All that may be true, but is not what T was talking about.

I have copied and pasted his post below and you could take out his "Brexiteeers Band" sentence and make no difference to the meaning and feeling of his post, which is what counts to me

 

"Thanks. Missed that previously. Always an entertaining and amusing read even if don’t always agree but that was a really cutting assessment of Boris. I suspect he will be ditched at the first opportune moment. His biography will not reflect well on him or his supporters. However you look at the numbers they are awful. If there was ever a right time for the Boris and the Brexiteers Band to play it certainly isn’t now. The UK is at least a couple of months behind other countries which are opening up on lower cases rather than economic desperation." 

 

 

[Surfer 1,547]

This is why the whole "protect the NHS" was a classically fascist / communist slogan to deploy.... government's prime responsibility is NOT to protect institutions, it is to protect its citizens. But of course "protecting the NHS" sounds better, much more "focused" so let's do everything not to overwhelm it, when the proper focus should have been "we have vulnerable people AND we have the broader population AND we have an globalized economy, so how do we protect all those" . 

It's a similar issue now, the measurement is "testing volume" (forget that they can't even sustain the target that they claimed) but that is NOT the point. Who cares if we have 100,000 tests a day, it's just a measurement, we should focus on how quickly the tests get processed and acted upon, because the key measurements are how many people are getting infected, where, how, and how do we stamp that out?

A step back and voicing a strategy would have everyone much more comfortable with following the lead of the Government, but instead we are all focusing on proving or disproving each questionable statement - because this Government has shown us we should not trust them.

 

[Surfer 1,547]

The good news is that in the UK, there is some semblance of an effective Loyal Opposition and even the newspapers are starting to question things. Over here in the US the President and his allies are trying to split the country's response along party lines so there is no central strategy to conquer the virus, we are seeing a "the virus is a hoax" , "china is to blame" , "get back to work" and "indict the last president for treason" propaganda campaign being pushed to half the population with the other half being vilified as "slackers" and "socialists" etc etc .... if you have no need to visit here in the short term I really would advise you stay away. We'll know how things went by Xmas. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Surfer

[T 190]

9 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

All that may be true, but is not what T was talking about.

I have copied and pasted his post below and you could take out his "Brexiteeers Band" sentence and make no difference to the meaning and feeling of his post, which is what counts to me

 

"Thanks. Missed that previously. Always an entertaining and amusing read even if don’t always agree but that was a really cutting assessment of Boris. I suspect he will be ditched at the first opportune moment. His biography will not reflect well on him or his supporters. However you look at the numbers they are awful. If there was ever a right time for the Boris and the Brexiteers Band to play it certainly isn’t now. The UK is at least a couple of months behind other countries which are opening up on lower cases rather than economic desperation." 

 

 

I couldn't be more fed up with the Brexit issue given that i'm the only one here that has had to already directly deal wit with the consequences as far as I can see so I've seen for myself what a nonsense it is . Everyone else here suffers the indirect consequences so it is less visible to them.  As far as I'm concenred it is happening and should happen at some point and I've always said that.. But as BF correctly picked my point i was indicating is that is has had a direct impact of the level of preparations which are absolutely critical and the make-up of the current government which was based on idealogy rather than ability. When it comes down to why the UK has performed so poorly then it is a factor however inconvient it is for its advocates. Wrong priority as I consistently argued. 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,181]

38 minutes ago, T said:

I couldn't be more fed up with the Brexit issue given that i'm the only one here that has had to already directly deal wit with the consequences as far as I can see so I've seen for myself what a nonsense it is . Everyone else here suffers the indirect consequences so it is less visible to them. 

Out of interest, what are the direct dealings with the consequences that you have had? If I am right I believe you live in Germany, but there are others of us who post here who are in the EU or EFTA 

[sonyc 5,492]

25 minutes ago, T said:

I couldn't be more fed up with the Brexit issue given that i'm the only one here that has had to already directly deal wit with the consequences as far as I can see so I've seen for myself what a nonsense it is . Everyone else here suffers the indirect consequences so it is less visible to them.  As far as I'm concenred it is happening and should happen at some point and I've always said that.. But as BF correctly picked my point i was indicating is that is has had a direct impact of the level of preparations which are absolutely critical and the make-up of the current government which was based on idealogy rather than ability. When it comes down to why the UK has performed so poorly then it is a factor however inconvient it is for its advocates. Wrong priority as I consistently argued. 

Lack of preparedness seems to be accepted by commentators and it may well have a link to the government's focus on Brexit. Hence, those ridiculous celebrations around 31st January. It was all hubris.

Worse for me was the sheer complacency and what I perceived as an arrogant way in which it was communicated (recall Hancock saying the government were well prepared). I cannot forgive that kind of attitude.

It is important to comment on it and debate. I've decided no more to slink along in the shadows. It's appalling what is happening and odd to just be aware you're living in it and through it. And the loss of people you hear about is shocking. 

 

 

 

[sonyc 5,492]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

This is why the whole "protect the NHS" was a classically fascist / communist slogan to deploy.... government's prime responsibility is NOT to protect institutions, it is to protect its citizens. But of course "protecting the NHS" sounds better, much more "focused" so let's do everything not to overwhelm it, when the proper focus should have been "we have vulnerable people AND we have the broader population AND we have an globalized economy, so how do we protect all those" . 

It's a similar issue now, the measurement is "testing volume" (forget that they can't even sustain the target that they claimed) but that is NOT the point. Who cares if we have 100,000 tests a day, it's just a measurement, we should focus on how quickly the tests get processed and acted upon, because the key measurements are how many people are getting infected, where, how, and how do we stamp that out?

A step back and voicing a strategy would have everyone much more comfortable with following the lead of the Government, but instead we are all focusing on proving or disproving each questionable statement - because this Government has shown us we should not trust them.

 

Equally worrying is the back door privatisation of the NHS trailed by the media  ...contracts being offered with no tendering or competitive process. I accept we are in a crisis but it invidious, unjust.

[T 190]

It was a tedious and time consuming process to get dual nationality. Just a big paper chase. Cost 400 Euro and a couple of weeks of time over 2 years.
 

That is exactly the sort of way it will hit business. The world does go on but Brexit means a lot of unproductive time and money on admin which is not directly visible to consumers.

 Know lots of people took  a lot more time getting Irish passport so they can carry on working in EU.  I think most people would say sod that for a game of soldiers if they saw the practical reality themselves apart from the die hards. 

Obviously impact on sterling but I moved money round so hedged and reduced my UK exposure which even more glad of now given UK hit harder by coronavirus.

I’m quite happy with the outcome. I know a lot of people though who work internationally without EU citizenship who are worried about their international livelihoods. I’m sure the Brexiteers on here will recompense me at some point because they keep telling me it is worthwhile but can never give me a practical reason why. 

[C Goodenough 5]

Happy? 

[T 190]

Absolutely happy with my status. Could have done without the hassle. I certainly don’t look back enviously at what is happening in the UK. Obviously I make comparisons and the whole process in UK does not compare favourably to say the least. 

[C Goodenough 5]

Off topic.

But i've read pritty much all your posts on this topic and brexit and am intrigued by what you have to say on it all.

Doesn't matter but out of interest, do you mind me asking where you live now. UK or Germany. 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

I know it really belongs in the Brexit thread but I did note that amongst all the coronavirus news and distractions the government has conceded to the internal UK NI physical border customs and phytosanitary checks/controls on goods across the Irish Sea as per the EU agreements and understanding (and despite the pre-election 'there won't be any' twaddle of Johnson). Have to put that down to another 'didn't understand or read the detail' excuse from Johnson if not a downright election lie -  agreeing in effect to what May 'Could never sign up to!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52654166

The coronavirus response is just more of the same - par for the course.

Mid May - have we achieved 150,000 tests per week yet - well on our way 200,000 or are they still as illusory as Hancock's half hour 100,000 ?