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12 hours ago, ricardo said:

I doubt anybody on this forum has the expertise to comment either way. We can only hope those who possess that expertise will use it to our advantage.

Well here's some people with a lot more expertise https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/absolutely-wrong-how-uk-coronavirus-test-strategy-unravelled

and what they're saying is pretty damning although broadly what many of us have been saying on here - the government paying too much attention to speculative modellers and nowhere near enough attention to the public health medical experts. The strategy has been wrong from the start and we're now struggling to correct it because we're playing very belated catch-up in a global competition for testing kits and the many other resources we need.

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10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Well here's some people with a lot more expertise https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/absolutely-wrong-how-uk-coronavirus-test-strategy-unravelled

and what they're saying is pretty damning although broadly what many of us have been saying on here - the government paying too much attention to speculative modellers and nowhere near enough attention to the public health medical experts. The strategy has been wrong from the start and we're now struggling to correct it because we're playing very belated catch-up in a global competition for testing kits and the many other resources we need.

I don’t think many are saying the government  got it all right, far from it in fact. The most important decisions in this however rest with us as individuals and the final numbers will have a lot more to do with how we behave than decisions made by the government. The social distancing, lock down advice came too late but now it’s there let’s make sure everybody sticks to it. 

Edited by Van wink

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28 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I don’t think many are saying the government  got it all right, far from it in fact. The most important decisions in this however rest with us as individuals and the final numbers will have a lot more to do with how we behave than decisions made by the government. The social distancing, lock down advice came too late but now it’s there let’s make sure everybody sticks to it. 

Actually some posters claimed the criticism of the government was motivated solely by political bias. To be fair, as the evidence of failings has mounted up, that line of attack seems to have been quietly dropped.

One poster also claimed there had never been a policy of 'herd immunity' when Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, and the head of Number 10s 'nudge unit' had both used that very term to describe the strategy.

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

That’s certainly true, in a pandemic there will  be cases that appear outside the norm which are rarely repeated, hopefully this is one of those, but of course knowledge and precautions is the best way to prevent further tragedies, ignorance won’t stop it happening again. 
 

Not just in a pandemic unfortunately. As mentioned earlier, 25 year old extremely healthy footballers can drop dead without any warning. All sorts of people die when they “shouldn’t” have died. Always very sad of course, but important people remember that it isn’t just coronavirus and get overly panicked.

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Just to go off on a separate tack, does anybody know if the Government "D Notice" system is still in place ?

The reason I ask is that the questions at the daily briefing seem very anodyne and the questioners look like they have to accept a fudged "non-answer" to their questions without being able to dig deeper.

It was particularly noticeable to me when Peston was told that a lack of re-agents was the problem with getting more test kits available. He contacted the chemicals manufacturers who said there was no shortage at all, I was expecting him to bring it up again yesterday but he didn't mention it.

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Wearing of face masks by the public being discussed again. Bit of a conundrum, they more than likely help to stop the spread of respiratory infection but clearly the ones we have available are needed by front line workers. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

Just to go off on a separate tack, does anybody know if the Government "D Notice" system is still in place ?

The reason I ask is that the questions at the daily briefing seem very anodyne and the questioners look like they have to accept a fudged "non-answer" to their questions without being able to dig deeper.

It was particularly noticeable to me when Peston was told that a lack of re-agents was the problem with getting more test kits available. He contacted the chemicals manufacturers who said there was no shortage at all, I was expecting him to bring it up again yesterday but he didn't mention it.

The press conferences are becoming more of a lecture.

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57 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I don’t think many are saying the government  got it all right, far from it in fact. The most important decisions in this however rest with us as individuals and the final numbers will have a lot more to do with how we behave than decisions made by the government. The social distancing, lock down advice came too late but now it’s there let’s make sure everybody sticks to it. 

More weasel words. Just as with Disco and Barbe Bleu who tried to claim that previous criticism was not from expert comment but based on some 'tribal affliation'. There were even idiotic polls put up to try to justify this rubbish.

The reality is that there has been an epic failure - and to try to put the blame on to ordinary folk is is sick...even by the standards of crank's usual bias tosh. It is not ordinary folk who failed to provide emergency stock, failed to join an EU procurement initiative, or failed in the claims of how much testing would be carried out.

Nor are they responsible for the cuts to the NHS and the missing 50,000 nurses. Did they issue edicts about herd immunity, or that pubs, restaurants and schools should stay open ?

Others on here need to ask why these three in particular stuck to this line of bare faced lies for so long - and even now have this one trying to lay the blame onto us....not the government

Meanwhile take a look at what ALL sides of the media are now saying

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/02/shambles-chaos-ridiculous-what-the-uk-papers-say-about-covid-19-testing

" The Mail focuses on the “statistic that humbles ministers” with the headline “550,000 NHS staff only 2,000 tested”, in what it calls the “latest shocking example of our testing scandal”.

which sit rather at odds with hand crank's deceitful words

"The most important decisions in this however rest with us as individuals and the final numbers will have a lot more to do with how we behave than decisions made by the government. "

 

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This was always going to be difficult but what I find unacceptable is Boris and Gove and their stooges trying to spin testing and PPE   The public fell for this on that other topic as they wanted to believe their nonsense but this is a lot more serious. The question is what are Germany and S Korea doing that the UK isn’t. This has nothing to do with  anti British jingoistic nonsense claims from those who have contributed to this problem but taking action to deal with the lack of testing and PPE which is anti British people. 

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6 minutes ago, T said:

This was always going to be difficult but what I find unacceptable is Boris and Gove and their stooges trying to spin testing and PPE   The public fell for this on that other topic as they wanted to believe their nonsense but this is a lot more serious. The question is what are Germany and S Korea doing that the UK isn’t. This has nothing to do with  anti British jingoistic nonsense claims from those who have contributed to this problem but taking action to deal with the lack of testing and PPE which is anti British people. 

 

Scientists or better engineers running things with good numerical and practical real world skills as opposed to comedians, journalists, lawyers and generally 'arty' graduates with flowery language but who've never had a proper job etc. The real hard world of physical things is a 'b***h'. I suspect logarithmic graphs is already stretching their envelope and attention span.

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12 minutes ago, T said:

This was always going to be difficult but what I find unacceptable is Boris and Gove and their stooges trying to spin testing and PPE   

It needs sorting with actions rather than promises

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23 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Wearing of face masks by the public being discussed again. Bit of a conundrum, they more than likely help to stop the spread of respiratory infection but clearly the ones we have available are needed by front line workers.

or earlier hand crank told us

"Thats correct, its no coincidence that we see populations in the Far East wearing facemarks after their experience with SARS. There are quite a few, and some on here, who have no grasp of this."

More lies.

Wearing a fask mask in the far east is a fashion statement, and was in fashion long before SARS. The reason given being that in many cities they block the smell of petrol fumes.

If anyone thinks they have a virus that could be spread then they should stay indoors. Wearing a silly mask will not stop you from spreading that virus. This has been underlined by all expert opinion. And to add further with regard to handwashing

" "I can tell you, I am shaking hands contin... I was at a hospital the other night when I think there were actually a few coronavirus patients and I shook hands with everybody, you'll be pleased to know. And I continue to shake hands and, I think it is very important that we... people can make up their own minds, I think Matt has said that people must make up their own minds. I think the scientific evidence is...well I will hand over to the experts."  4th March 2020

You are the PM you clueless buffoon. You should be on top of your brief, not try to make out you are a lovable 'character'. Primary school kids at that stage knew the importance of hand washing. Any wonder you and others in mumber 10 have contracted the virus. How many have they passed it on to ?

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2 minutes ago, Bill said:

Wearing a silly mask will not stop you from spreading that virus.

 

what if you wear a sensible mask.

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Sorry, I went to China in the summer and found it to be a pretty vile culture.... they then gave the world a pandemic due to eating disgusting ****, and now they have approved a "treatment" for the disease they caused by eating weird ****... the "treatment" is an injection of bear bile, goat horn and herbs.... DO THEY NOT ****ING LEARN? What in the actual **** is wrong with them?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52130552?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e859d574e049e066f596657%26China approves bear bile as treatment%262020-04-02T08%3A19%3A55.873Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ec6be682-5f4f-48ca-a4f3-e88491a984e4&pinned_post_asset_id=5e859d574e049e066f596657&pinned_post_type=share

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11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

what if you wear a sensible mask.

rather reminds me of my aunt who in the war returned home from a vist to town, and asked my uncle if he noticed anything thing different

"you've had your hair done ?", 'no'

you''re wearing a new dress ?, 'no'

"well what is it ?"

I've taken my gas mask off

Edited by Bill
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10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

what if you wear a sensible mask.

He doesn’t have one 

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49 minutes ago, Bill said:

More weasel words. Just as with Disco and Barbe Bleu who tried to claim that previous criticism was not from expert comment but based on some 'tribal affliation'. There were even idiotic polls put up to try to justify this rubbish.

Apologised for lying yet Bigotty? I notice that's the one post you ignored. Curious...

Did you shout "BIGOT!" at yourself in the mirror this morning?

Keep 'um coming big boy - I got time to burn! 🔥

OTBC

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18 minutes ago, Bill said:

 

More lies.

Wearing a silly mask will not stop you from spreading that virus. This has been underlined by all expert opinion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/all-uk-hospital-staff-and-patients-should-wear-masks-says-doctors-group

Your usual BS is nothing we are not used to but when it comes to something as serious as this make sure you are not spreading misinformation, it could kill someone.

 

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Germany has increased its ICUs to 40000 and ventilators to 30000. The UK is more in line with Spain and Italy. I’ve no interest in nationalistic jingoism. I am interested in why some countries do some things better. I have long wondered why countries don’t benchmark themselves against other countries to see what they can do better in both directions. Circumstances are always different so not always transferable but surely learning from other people is better than nationalism. At least scientists and medics are not so nationalistic and see the obvious benefit of working internationally. Hopefully an important lesson for the majority from this crisis. 

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Actually some posters claimed the criticism of the government was motivated solely by political bias. To be fair, as the evidence of failings has mounted up, that line of attack seems to have been quietly dropped.

Hello Purple!

Is this aimed at me old chap?

I had a most fruitful discussion with Badger and a few others about political bias on another thread; I can't remember anyone saying that criticism was motivated solely by political bias. You should have joined in the discussion! All reasoned thoughts were welcome!

OTBC

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15 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Hello Purple!

Is this aimed at me old chap?

I had a most fruitful discussion with Badger and a few others about political bias on another thread; I can't remember anyone saying that criticism was motivated solely by political bias. You should have joined in the discussion! All reasoned thoughts were welcome!

OTBC

Precisely (and again I am not DDJ).

It was an interesting discussion about the psychology of opinion making and the extent to which our prior opinions and affiliations influence the way we see and assess things.

The graphs showed that those that supported labour in the 2019 election were less likely to have a positive opinion on the government response to the crisis than were tory supporters and vice versa (although the meaning /significance of thes graphs was disputed )

Bill then derailed the whole discussion by  making it all about him and claiming that we are a right wing agitator seeking to undermine him.

For the record no one was giving an opinion on the efficacy of the response apart from bill

 

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4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Precisely (and again I am not DDJ).

Are you sure? Do you use over-sized emojis? 🤔

I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion Barbe bleu. 👍

OTBC

Edited by Disco Dales Jockstrap

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21 hours ago, Aggy said:

evidently you’re just going to keep misquoting me

Another attempt to engage sensibly with you Aggy, although I can't help feeling that I am being a little naive in attempting to do so. I recognise that there is a possibility that I am being unfair, but it does seem to me that you may be deliberately obfuscating and denying that you have said things in an attempt to justify what you have said. It is not a tactic that is unknown to someone else on this thread. 

I have never misquoted you at all. Every word that I have quoted from you was a direct, verbatim quotation. 

The govt was receiving so flack for lack of preparation but you sought to provide some justification for this (page 42)

On 01/04/2020 at 08:55, Aggy said:

Can you prepare fully for every possible disaster? If this was a different sort of virus or bacteria that didn’t affect your lungs as much as it affected your liver or kidneys or something else, then all the extra ventilators in the world wouldn’t make much difference. 

I pointed out that the oncoming crisis was known about in January.

23 hours ago, Badger said:

I think that the point is that Covid 19 was known to affect the respiratory system in January, but the govt was very slow to react. This is the main criticism that the Lancet has and indeed it is also stated by their own ex-Health secretary, Jeremy Hunt.

 

Despite the widespread criticism by NHS staff and other essential services that they did not have adequate PPE equipment, you maintained what I believe to be a specious defence that six months ago (September/ October) we wouldn't have been pressing for extra ventilators

21 hours ago, Aggy said:

But if you’d gone to people in the NHS six months ago and said “here’s £x million to invest, what do you want?” I’d guess fifty thousand additional ventilators would probably not have been that high up the list. 

You then sought to pretend that the crisis was unknown about and that nobody had recommended action earlier

17 hours ago, Aggy said:

what I would say is that hindsight is a wonderful thing and I can’t remember Jeremy Hunt crowing on about it back in January.

This was despite the fact that it was pointed out to you that the knowledge was in the public domain. I went on to state that it was unfair to ask NHS staff to risk their lives because of inadequate equipment. Instead of agreeing with this, you questioned whether I said this 6 months ago.  (goodness knows why).

17 hours ago, Aggy said:
17 hours ago, Badger said:

As for pleading ignorance, I don't think that you have to know a great deal to understand that it is unfair to ask NHS and care staff to risk their lives because they are having to operate without PPE. 

I presume you were making this argument six months ago? Or do you think coronavirus is the only infectious disease that exists?

1. It doesn't take six months to source PPE! This seems like a complete smokescreen on your part. The equipment could have been with NHS staff, care workers and other essential staff now. Whether or not I was saying this six months ago is totally irrelevant. 

2. This is not a crisis which emerged suddenly in March. Despite you seemingly disingenuous attempts attempts to move the debate to six months ago, before the crisis emerged, the issue did begin to emerge in January and this is when the govt should have acted rather than an arbitrary date in Sept/ Oct which you for have selected for reasons which smack of dissembling.

I recognise my naivety in giving a detailed, sensible response and am aware of the danger that in doing so I may be feeding the satisfaction that a few seem to obtain by playing games, but retain my belief that the vast majority who post on here are well intentioned and hope that this is the case with you and hope that your point is either arcane or simply unclear.

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

The press conferences are becoming more of a lecture.

It will be interesting to see how quickly Johnson resumes his role of chairing them. When is he due out of isolation?

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/all-uk-hospital-staff-and-patients-should-wear-masks-says-doctors-group

Your usual BS is nothing we are not used to but when it comes to something as serious as this make sure you are not spreading misinformation, it could kill someone.

nope, I shall stick to this quote from the above until advice changes

" The WHO, and the UK government, currently advise that face masks do not play a major role in protecting people from infection outside healthcare settings. "

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1 hour ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Apologised for lying yet Bigotty? I notice that's the one post you ignored. Curious...

Did you shout "BIGOT!" at yourself in the mirror this morning?

Keep 'um coming big boy - I got time to burn! 🔥

OTBC

blimey, the meds have kicked in early today - are you sure you have taken the correct dosage

otherwise I shall refer to when you had not logged in for over a week then leapt out of the dark so to speak, logged in and replied.....with your usual guff

we were to assume that by pure coincidence a comment by me that did not mention you should cause you to start ranting and raving yet again

whereas the release of the club accounts and a home defeat to the bottom club had not caused you to add the slightest peep

odd that for someone who claims his only interest is football......or not, maybe

not so much **** Emery, as **** H

 

ps don't twist folk's posts, it's such a giveaway

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

Wearing a silly mask will not stop you from spreading that virus.

ANOTHER LIE? WTF! 😱

Seriously my friend. Are you going to stick by that? That medical face masks don't stop you from **spreading** a virus that is **spread** by coughing and sneezing? Are you sure? Do you wish to re-phrase your comments?

What do you wear when you go out then Billy? Is this you?

istockphoto-527909744-170667a.jpg.79ab9a2e4d383fa3124da9d4fbf3f441.jpg

I'll make you a deal - you stop lying, and I'll stop calling you Bigotty Bill. I'll even shake your hand on it! 🤝

My med are really kicking in now! YIPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEE!

OTBC

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2 hours ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Hello Purple!

Is this aimed at me old chap?

I had a most fruitful discussion with Badger and a few others about political bias on another thread; I can't remember anyone saying that criticism was motivated solely by political bias. You should have joined in the discussion! All reasoned thoughts were welcome!

OTBC

Sorry to deny you the kudos of being shamed by me but I had others in mind.😂 That said, I could look back to see if you need adding to the list...😎

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