Corona Virus main thread

[T 190]

42 minutes ago, Van wink said:

You really are full of contradictions T. Last time we had a short discussion you were telling me how Germany’s amazing health care system was going to result in less deaths, now you quote a source stating the exact opposite.

No not at all. Repeating what I said before as this is what RKI has always said. For the vulnerable ventilators will likely delay but not prevent death but if I had a choice I would go for the 4x greater ICUs and medical staff for those on the edge.It will of course save lives but not change those who would die regardless. It seems you don’t care about having better odds of surviving if we follow your arguments.  You are arguing that Germany is not better off because Medical Staff and ventilators don’t matter if yoU think Germany isn’t in a better position than the UK. Also greater ventilators Building and testing capacity is also beneficial unless you disagree with UK   govt policy to increase medical capacity. Your assertion that Germany isn’t better off with greater medical capacity is frankly bizarre and completely irrational and illogical. Nationalism will not save lives. Medical capacity will. 

[Van wink 2,994]

33 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Fewer social problems than keeping full lockdown for months.

I think we’re more likely to go with Indy’s approach than yours though VW - slight difference between the two.  You say that we’d only let people back into society who have already had coronavirus. I’d argue that’s counter productive. If you’re going to put measures in place where you’re going to have to somehow govern/record who has had it and who hasn’t, then why not instead just go for a situation where you record who is at high risk and who isn’t?

The money involved in testing people to see if they’ve had it, and then re-testing people every time they have any sort of symptoms, would be huge. And you’d end up with loads of healthy people who could be working sat at home when they are only likely to get fairly mild flu like symptoms anyway. If you’re not in a high risk group, then it’s probably not going to do you or society any harm if you catch it anyway, so long as the high risk people are still in lockdown. 

You may well be right, as this develops of course we may well discover more vulnerable groups even within the younger age groups, let’s hope we get this information swiftly.

[T 190]

Testing is about capacity. It will increase as capacity increases. It is the only way to understand and control this and lift restrictions until a vaccine is available. 

[Badger 2,405]

Isn't there are more optimistic case whereby the virus will just lose its potency? Isn't this what happened with swine flu and SARs?

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Lots of people don’t have flu vaccines despite ‘normal’ flu strains being potentially deadly. Vaccines help create herd immunity but the majority of the population is left to create it itself. The difference being that if you can vaccinate people most at risk of serious complications, then it matters less if you just leave the otherwise healthy people to go out and catch it.. 
 

If we can’t get a vaccine for 18 months, would you suggest we continue with full lockdown until summer 2021?

Lots of people don't take vaccines for lots of things but with the really damaging diseases/viruses we aim to achieve herd immunity through comprehensive vaccination (and not at all by hoping most of the population will create their own) - hence the huge and long running outcry about MMR vaccine take up dropping below the 95% threshold.

This virus has right from the start been recognised as significantly more dangerous than flu and without a vaccine to protect at least the most vulnerable the Johnson\Cummings\Trump approach was in effect to sacrifice them in order to minimise the economic hit - though that could also have misfired as well as in Europe we appear to be getting more deaths in younger age groups than were expected.

I don't think anyone has any real idea how long the lockdown has to last in this country, we haven't tested nearly enough and we locked down too late (in fact we've done everything too late) so for the next 2-3 weeks we just have to wait and hope for the best. After that presumably we'll have a much better idea but I do think that lifting the lockdown is going to err on the cautious side - think Boris's abrupt switch from laissez faire to total panic has unnerved a lot of people and that there will now be a lot of public resistance to easing back in the short term.

[Van wink 2,994]

T

“No not at all. Repeating what I said before as this is what RKI has always said. For the vulnerable ventilators will likely delay but not prevent death ”

 

Ah I see, so you have changed again.

[Van wink 2,994]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

Isn't there are more optimistic case whereby the virus will just lose its potency? Isn't this what happened with swine flu and SARs?

There has been good news in that despite the infections being rampant across the globe and passed between a huge number of people there has only been one significant mutation.

[Mark .Y. 351]

I know all of this is bad but the numbers of cases and deaths from the UK, Italy, Spain and Germany are all better today. Spain in particular is saying that they think the peak may have passed in a number of regions.

There is an issue with the number of new cases where we don't always know how many tests were done eg in the UK we only did around 7000 where I think the aim was 10,000 but had we done 10,000 the number of new cases would have been around 3,500 which still isn't as bad as might have been expected.

May be a glimmer of hope ???

[vos 155]

I feel there has been too much emphasis on "testing positive" rather than actual deaths. In the Mail on Sunday for instance it states that over two thirds of "cornavirus deaths" are where elderly patients already have serious issues and were not likely to see the year out. To enhance my argument when it was announced that Boris had tested positive, I cannot recall anyone suggesting his life was in danger, it was a case of he will self isolate and be back soon.

 

[Aggy 748]

58 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Lots of people don't take vaccines for lots of things but with the really damaging diseases/viruses we aim to achieve herd immunity through comprehensive vaccination (and not at all by hoping most of the population will create their own) - hence the huge and long running outcry about MMR vaccine take up dropping below the 95% threshold.

This virus has right from the start been recognised as significantly more dangerous than flu and without a vaccine to protect at least the most vulnerable the Johnson\Cummings\Trump approach was in effect to sacrifice them in order to minimise the economic hit - though that could also have misfired as well as in Europe we appear to be getting more deaths in younger age groups than were expected.

I don't think anyone has any real idea how long the lockdown has to last in this country, we haven't tested nearly enough and we locked down too late (in fact we've done everything too late) so for the next 2-3 weeks we just have to wait and hope for the best. After that presumably we'll have a much better idea but I do think that lifting the lockdown is going to err on the cautious side - think Boris's abrupt switch from laissez faire to total panic has unnerved a lot of people and that there will now be a lot of public resistance to easing back in the short term.

Yes, but measles killed c.2.3million a year on average (over many years) before a vaccine was developed, and in 1964-65 there were 12.5 million cases of rubella in the USA alone. The WHO reckons 140,000 people still died from measles last year in 2019 despite widespread immunisation. We don’t ban people without the flu jab from leaving the house every flu season. We’ve had 300,000 cases of Coronavirus worldwide in three months and 33,000 deaths. Let’s not blow it out of proportion. It’s more deadly and spreads quicker, but for the large majority of the population the coronavirus symptoms aren’t all that much worse than seasonal flu symptoms. Vaccinating everybody in the country/world (or banning people from leaving the house without vaccination after this initial period of lockdown) would be disproportionate (whereas giving the MMR jab to everyone certainly isn’t disproportionate). 

I don’t know about Cummings’ private opinions, but Boris seemed to have medical advice from experts backing up a ‘herd immunity’ approach. It wasn’t him personally wanting to ‘sacrifice’ thousands of people. I think we all need to be slightly careful about making any sweeping statements and using terms such as ‘sacrificing’ at the moment - we’ve seen in the news this weekend much discussion about those people who are abused at home and are stuck at home suffering. Trump referred to potential suicide rates if there is mass unemployment and a prolonged lockdown.  Almost five times more people filed for unemployment last week in the USA than ever before. There are only going to be more unemployed the longer the lockdown goes on. Trump scaremongering, perhaps, but there has been plenty of scaremongering in respect of coronavirus too. What are the long term mental, physical, health and economic effects going to be of a prolonged ‘lockdown’ on the general public? We don’t know the answer to that as much as we don’t know how Coronavirus will pan out. 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Aggy

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, vos said:

I feel there has been too much emphasis on "testing positive" rather than actual deaths. In the Mail on Sunday for instance it states that over two thirds of "cornavirus deaths" are where elderly patients already have serious issues and were not likely to see the year out. To enhance my argument when it was announced that Boris had tested positive, I cannot recall anyone suggesting his life was in danger, it was a case of he will self isolate and be back soon.

 

This is a contentious issue as you can’t put value on a persons life. Modern society and medicine dictates that while you are alive and breathing no matter what your prognosis is.

There are a number of scientists who have said that the death toll for the year is unlikely to show any significant change to the norm. We shall see.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

20 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I don’t know about Cummings’ private opinions, but Boris seemed to have medical advice from experts backing up a ‘herd immunity’ approach. It wasn’t him personally wanting to ‘sacrifice’ thousands of people.

 

I think 'seemed' is the operative word here, Boris continually stresses the scientific advice but we all know that Boris has always had a very tenuous (at best) relationship with the truth and having a couple of tame government experts backing him up is not all that convincing when measured against the advice that the WHO, China and the vast majority of independent experts were giving, and which virtually every country except the UK and US was acting on.

For the sake of clarity I'm not trying to argue for a very extended lockdown, or indeed for the need for herd immunity at all but the idea of trying to achieve herd immunity without vaccine (and therefore any protection for the vulnerable) was an extremely stupid one which does amount to sacrificing the vulnerable. When we reach the happy situation of having a vaccine available then your analogy to flu becomes much more relevant - only a proportion of the population will need it but it will need to be a very high proportion of several big groups within the population.

But a vaccine is some way off and therefore I think the mistakes that Boris has already made in totally failing to contain the initial spread have now made a substantial (i.e. several months) lockdown inevitable but let's hope it is of the order of 3-6 months rather the 12-15 option.

I really don't think its worth commenting on anything that Trump says other to observe that he doesn't even pretend to be following expert advice, not even his own/tame experts, because according to him he knows more than the experts...... about everything.

 

 

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think 'seemed' is the operative word here, Boris continually stresses the scientific advice but we all know that Boris has always had a very tenuous (at best) relationship with the truth and having a couple of tame government experts backing him up is not all that convincing when measured against the advice that the WHO, China and the vast majority of independent experts were giving, and which virtually every country except the UK and US was acting on.

For the sake of clarity I'm not trying to argue for a very extended lockdown, or indeed for the need for herd immunity at all but the idea of trying to achieve herd immunity without vaccine (and therefore any protection for the vulnerable) was an extremely stupid one which does amount to sacrificing the vulnerable. When we reach the happy situation of having a vaccine available then your analogy to flu becomes much more relevant - only a proportion of the population will need it but it will need to be a very high proportion of several big groups within the population.

But a vaccine is some way off and therefore I think the mistakes that Boris has already made in totally failing to contain the initial spread have now made a substantial (i.e. several months) lockdown inevitable but let's hope it is of the order of 3-6 months rather the 12-15 option.

I really don't think its worth commenting on anything that Trump says other to observe that he doesn't even pretend to be following expert advice, not even his own/tame experts, because according to him he knows more than the experts...... about everything.

 

 

The idea of a extended lockdown will not work, it’s a short term strategy for two basic reasons one is we can’t afford it, second people won’t comply, meaning either shortage of food, medicine and money, leading to violence and massive problems.

We have to get people back to farming crops, they need to be picked and as we don’t have the mass migration from Eastern Europe we need to do this. We need to keep supplies going, we need to get people back to work.

Yes the two thoughts above might be the extreme scenarios, can anyone really accept long term restrictions with a state run authoritarian system to ensure compliance, given the numbers of those actually at risk? 

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, vos said:

I feel there has been too much emphasis on "testing positive" rather than actual deaths. In the Mail on Sunday for instance it states that over two thirds of "cornavirus deaths" are where elderly patients already have serious issues and were not likely to see the year out. To enhance my argument when it was announced that Boris had tested positive, I cannot recall anyone suggesting his life was in danger, it was a case of he will self isolate and be back soon.

That rather misses the point

In any modern war 10 men wounded will take up more resources than ten men killed. The more who are affectred the more respurces will be needed to treat them (hospital) or self isolation (home).  It is as blunt as that.

Tp keep society functioning now there has to be a pool of labour that can quickly be drawn upon. Hence the need to keep people at home ready to be 'used' where needed - and to have the back up of a register of volunteers - the latter being directed as and when needed.

That highlights the nonsense about a 'points based' imigration system as in this case we already have the workers waiting to be called upon ie they are doing nothing else. Whereas expecting the skills needed to be people who can drop everything and migrate almost instantly is absurd.

There is now talk of migrant labour being fast tracked into the UK to deal with the up coming fruit/veg harvest - which merely emphasises the point. And it will be curious to see how many northerner brexit voters will now flock to take up those jobs,

Sad that it has taken a healthproblem such as this to blow apart the nonsense of the previous four years. We did need more investment in nurses and police. UK broadband, shared ec,onomic strength when purchasing/distributing goods (PPE equipment). Though even sadder for the long term is that, like the anti vaxxerse, evidence will be ignored and the Parrot Sketch will be re-enacted up and down the country, as on here.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Bill

[Ramrod 258]

I will do my utmost from here on in to avoid purchasing anything manufactured in the PRC. 

The desire for cheap (possibly forced) labour within a few years has turned a Medeival communist state into the 2nd most powerful country in the world threatening neighbours, eating the remaining world's wildlife, killing the seas and polluting the atmosphere. 

Western Capitalism is equally culpable and all so we can buy much more than we need. Back in the 60's and 70's we all had so much less but we were no less happy. 

China will not be confronted by governments. China will simply sell large quantities of that countries currency and raise inflation or other fiscal retaliation. 

It requires all of us to buy home made whenever possible or made in a country not seeking domination. 

It isn't easy. As I said before if you buy clothing made in Italy it is probably made under Chinese conditions by Chinese acquired companies using illegal labour. 

We need to be better informed. 

Certainly Huawei shouldn't be allowed anywhere near our 5G network. 

Warfare is seldom fought on battlefields these days. 

The West brought about the fall of the Soviet Union by the promulgation of numerous costly defence commitments. 

War is fought in cyber space through social influence. Russia has form here. It is insidious from influencing political elections to newspaper comments sections. The truth is so hard to find Trump turned it on its head to declare 'fake news' when it suited him and people were prepared to accept it possibly was. 

Refugees are an easy weapon of war. Assist enough sub Saharan Africans to cross that historically impenetrable barrier or create conflict in Syria to force people into Turkey and Greece and you create political problems. 

The refugee issue, for example, has been damaging to the EU which Russia would like to dissemble. 

It might be the case that this virus originated from dirty peasant markets and spread globally because China has tourists, students, workers both legal and illegal everywhere. 

I personally suspect it is more sinister than that and we are dancing to the tune with this ludicrous shut down of our economies which will be the catalyst for the major shift of wealth from West to East. 

You might be someone who judges British imperialism by modern standards. But the fact is, that is why you live in 1st world comfort on a small island in North-West Europe. 

China wants the same things. Do we hand it to them? Do we accept subservience?  Do we sell them our debt? Do we hand them our intellectual property? 

You may dislike America but would you prefer a communist country leading the world. 

Our politicians have lost their heads. We have to defend our country. We are wholly over-blowing this virus. 

1500 people die every day. After this 'lockdown' cases will rise again. 

Personally, I'm fine. I have plenty to do, enough retirement income and can comply with isolation. 

I don't have to cope with restless children, a 20% salary cut or unemployment. 

I'm not trying to move house or pay rent or mortgage but I'd happily manage my own risk and accept contagion for the sake of my children and grandchildren who will, in future face higher taxes and costs. 

I am a compassionate and patriotic individual but I have to have priorities and for me they are: child welfare and development, young people and their education and training, young families and working people. These come first. 

This 'lock down' will end soon because the public will rebel and politics will have to follow. The government should have set it at 3 weeks maximum to prepare the NHS and no longer. 

We are being led by dubious and confusing science. It's time to get a grip!

[Ramrod 258]

Please read this. 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, vos said:

I feel there has been too much emphasis on "testing positive" rather than actual deaths. In the Mail on Sunday for instance it states that over two thirds of "cornavirus deaths" are where elderly patients already have serious issues and were not likely to see the year out. To enhance my argument when it was announced that Boris had tested positive, I cannot recall anyone suggesting his life was in danger, it was a case of he will self isolate and be back soon.

The Mail headline said "15 healthy people died out of 260" Which is 5%. Not 5% of the total population, not 5% of these who got infected, but 5% of those who died. 

We should hope that EVERYONE has already been infected as it would say the virus is not a deadly as has been suggested. But the problem is WE DO NOT KNOW.. hence we have to be very cautious until we can find out. The money we spend on testing is only a fraction of the money the economy is losing because we do not yet know. 

[Surfer 1,547]

29 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I really don't think its worth commenting on anything that Trump says other to observe that he doesn't even pretend to be following expert advice, not even his own/tame experts, because according to him he knows more than the experts...... about everything.

As Trump constantly changes his mind about everything, there is always a tweet from him that shows he is right. And also a tweet that shows he is wrong. Pick your poison. 

[Aggy 748]

36 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think 'seemed' is the operative word here, Boris continually stresses the scientific advice but we all know that Boris has always had a very tenuous (at best) relationship with the truth and having a couple of tame government experts backing him up is not all that convincing when measured against the advice that the WHO, China and the vast majority of independent experts were giving, and which virtually every country except the UK and US was acting on.

For the sake of clarity I'm not trying to argue for a very extended lockdown, or indeed for the need for herd immunity at all but the idea of trying to achieve herd immunity without vaccine (and therefore any protection for the vulnerable) was an extremely stupid one which does amount to sacrificing the vulnerable. When we reach the happy situation of having a vaccine available then your analogy to flu becomes much more relevant - only a proportion of the population will need it but it will need to be a very high proportion of several big groups within the population.

But a vaccine is some way off and therefore I think the mistakes that Boris has already made in totally failing to contain the initial spread have now made a substantial (i.e. several months) lockdown inevitable but let's hope it is of the order of 3-6 months rather the 12-15 option.

I really don't think its worth commenting on anything that Trump says other to observe that he doesn't even pretend to be following expert advice, not even his own/tame experts, because according to him he knows more than the experts...... about everything.

 

 

So if there’s a 12-15 month lockdown, how many will die from starvation (because they can’t afford food and /or because we’ve run out as there’s no one left producing it)? How many will be made homeless and die from complications living on the street?

Edited March 29, 2020 by Aggy

[Indy 3,283]

7 minutes ago, Ramrod said:

Please read this. 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

That’s a very good read and pretty much a level headed view, trouble is we live in a media driven society which needs dramatic effect to push through ratings.

That said we do need a level response one which has been until now and a the next few months needs to have a structured way forward. We must protect the vulnerable with getting our economies started, balanced way forward.

[Surfer 1,547]

21 minutes ago, Ramrod said:

This 'lock down' will end soon because the public will rebel and politics will have to follow. The government should have set it at 3 weeks maximum to prepare the NHS and no longer. 

We are being led by dubious and confusing science. It's time to get a grip!

If you want to get out of this crisis you need to do one of these two things.

a) Go back to work and accept that there will be thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. But at least we will be "open for business" to exploit new trade.

b) Invest in medical capacity - ventilators and para-medics, prove out antibody extraction from recovered patient plasma, and prove out  "pregnancy test" style home antibody tests complete with proof of  I.D, so you can release those who recovered back to the workforce. 

Or stumble along doing what we are doing now, just trying to slow everything down. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Surfer

[CANARYKING 634]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

No they said it’s an ongoing process and could be anywhere from 3 months to 6 months or longer before we get back to a level of normality! This is what pisses me off, the worst off people to exaggerate the actual statements.

 

Hope you’re right Indy, much more of this and the divorce rate will hit the roof

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, CANARYKING said:

Hope you’re right Indy, much more of this and the divorce rate will hit the roof

Matey you’re not wrong there! 😂👍 

I listened to the interview the BBC dramatically headlined it as 6 months and it wasn’t said like that. Fingers crossed as I need to get back to work......there’s only so much boredom I can take! Guitar learning isn’t the calming thing it should be....

[Bill 1,788]

12 minutes ago, Ramrod said:

You may dislike America but would you prefer a communist country leading the world. 

China is no morea communist country than N Korea is a democratic country

As to being better informed that has it's limitations. Those being the limitations of folk wanting to be informed, and then understanding and reacting to that 'informing'

Are those who believe in anti vaxxing, that we can talk to the dead and that our lives are run by the movements  of planets are of that thought because reasoned argument hasn't been laod before them ?

You can lead a horse.....

[Ramrod 258]

7 minutes ago, Surfer said:

If you want to get out of this crisis you need to do one of these two things.

a) Go back to work and accept that there will be thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. But at least we will be "open for business" to exploit new trade.

b) Invest in medical capacity - ventilators and para-medics, prove out antibody extraction from recovered patient plasma, and prove out  "pregnancy test" style home antibody tests complete with proof of  I.D, so you can release those who recovered back to the workforce. 

Or stumble along doing what we are doing now, just trying to slow everything down. 

My parents are well into their 80's.

They are busy, busy, busy with voluntary work in the local community. Or, they were. 

They are trying to keep busy at home as they are doers but for elderly people like them stopping being busy, getting out and enjoying what they have left, being with family and friends might just be their demise, virus or no virus. 

[Bill 1,788]

12 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So if there’s a 12-15 month lockdown, how many will die from starvation (because they can’t afford food and /or because we’ve run out as there’s no one left producing it)? How many will be made homeless and die from complications living on the street?

People are still working in food production and distribution. That will be controlled/allowed as and where needed.

I expect the 'exemptions' in that and other areas will slowly be eased as the weeks go by. As if mot then what point having 750,000 plus voliunteers if they are not going to be allowed out of their homes ?

I also suspect that morre quipment to del with those infected and more testing equipment will come online as we prgress. It is just a case of 'no body move' so the various agencies can plot a suitable path. A bit like census night. All stay in the one place so you can be counted.

Perhaps the government could via the internet come up with a skill that people could learn during this time....... thinking. perhaps.

Mind you, we would be into 12 months lock down for that to reach level 1 even 😊

[Ramrod 258]

3 minutes ago, Bill said:

China is no morea communist country than N Korea is a democratic country

As to being better informed that has it's limitations. Those being the limitations of folk wanting to be informed, and then understanding and reacting to that 'informing'

Are those who believe in anti vaxxing, that we can talk to the dead and that our lives are run by the movements  of planets are of that thought because reasoned argument hasn't been laod before them ?

You can lead a horse.....

China is on a par with **** Germany and Stalanist Russia. It just plays a game. 

I have only been to China once (Shanghai and Beijing) and saw right through the facade. 

I've also met plenty of Chinese tourists abroad and their behaviour was appalling. 

I love the British Chinese people, I loved Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and also love the Thai'S, Vietnamese and Filipinos. 

But the PRC is an existential threat. 

It might be capitalist communist but communist it is. There are always winners and losers in communism, that is its paradox. 

[Bill 1,788]

China is a capitalist state.Look up what capitalism means and you will see.

What it is doing is no different to the expansionist Great Britain of the 19th century. Plundering the world for raw materials for a cowed workforce to turn them into goods to be sold around the world. The US did the same at the turn of that century onward. For China's police state look up the Pinkerton agency and the IWW.

Look up how resistance to such explotation in China is lauded here, but villified here when it is by our own people. How the Sun and Tory MPs reacted to a vote to defeat a pay rise for nurses.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18339251.watch-tory-mps-cheer-blocking-pay-rise-nhs-nurses/

but never mind, they did stand on their doorsteps and clap

As I said earlier, until folks want to educate themselves little will change.........even the delusion that China is 'communist'

Edited March 29, 2020 by Bill

[T 190]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

T

“No not at all. Repeating what I said before as this is what RKI has always said. For the vulnerable ventilators will likely delay but not prevent death ”

 

Ah I see, so you have changed again.

I’m afraid you must have missed what I said. So again i noted that NY Governor said ventilators didn’t make a long term differefence for the vulnerable. The RKI has always said  the rate would increase for reasons discussed and therefore this has always been my understanding as I’ve always said I primarily look at original official sources in accordance with the official guidance.  .What  I have claimed is that Germany is better off than the UK  because they have more ICU and ventilator and testing capacity.  Clearly this  will not a significant difference to the vulnerable but will to the marginal cases. All the experts and the UK thinks medical capacity matters and Germany has more medical capacity so clearly they are in a better position. . That is just logic and reason so it suggests either you think that the experts are wrong and the UK shouldn’t be investing in medical capacity as it doesn’t matter or you have some other dubious reason for thinking that Germany is not in a better position given your previous offensive comments about Germans.

[Harry53 207]

3 hours ago, T said:

Testing is about capacity. It will increase as capacity increases. It is the only way to understand and control this and lift restrictions until a vaccine is available. 

A vaccine is unlikely to be ready until next year and by that time the flu virus will possibly mutate into something new!!