Premier League considers bans on over 70's at matches

[Indy 3,286]

Jesus Upo, your reaction is the reason this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion......it’s been here for nearly three months and killed 3000 globally, this years flu is on course for helping 50,000 vulnerable people in the UK and globally they reckon 500,000 people will die from flu related issues......that’s with a vaccines!

Good hygiene practices and sensible reactions should be the norm, not just because of Coronavirus.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Indy

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

Jesus Upo, your reaction is the reason this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion......it’s been here for nearly three months and killed 3000 globally, this years flu is on course for helping 50,000 vulnerable people in the UK and globally they reckon 500,000 people will die from flu related issues......that’s with a vaccines!

Good hygiene practices and sensible reactions should be the norm, not just because of Coronavirus.

Is he being serious though? I got the impression he was being ironic. 

[Indy 3,286]

7 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Is he being serious though? I got the impression he was being ironic. 

Not sure Wacky but every thread he’s preaching, so who knows, it’s getting to the point that the global reaction will cause more issues than the virus itself! It’s starting to do my head in, I might just......

Edited March 7, 2020 by Indy

[Upo 91]

27 minutes ago, Indy said:

Jesus Upo, your reaction is the reason this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion......it’s been here for nearly three months and killed 3000 globally, this years flu is on course for helping 50,000 vulnerable people in the UK and globally they reckon 500,000 people will die from flu related issues......that’s with a vaccines!

Good hygiene practices and sensible reactions should be the norm, not just because of Coronavirus.

Don't take it from me. Take it from a top epidemiologist from Harvard.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-coronavirus-isnt-going-away/id1460055316?i=1000466938203

12 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Is he being serious though? I got the impression he was being ironic. 

I am dead serious.

[ricardo 7,348]

It may well take another week for some to understand what is happening.

[Upo 91]

The reason why I'm banging on this goddamn drum is the countless articles which say stupid things like "It's not as bad as they say."

Now get your mindset right. This is not about panicking. This is about contributing in a responsible way to a potential, even likely, disaster by making sure you are fanatical about hygiene, and buy enough supplies in your home so you don't have to go out if you catch covid 19 (or some random other disease) for 2 to 3 weeks. Food, medicine, hand sanitizers, soap, atleast 10 liters of water (3 days requirement) per person etc.

Here:

https://www.ready.gov/pandemic

Most of the measures cost very little. It's your behaviour and expectations that have to adjust to an alien situation. You can't wait for the government for this. You need to do your part.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Upo

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

6 minutes ago, Upo said:

I am dead serious.

Your post in this thread was reasonable, but it's this one in the other thread that I assumed was a joke: 

"Playing closed doors is what they should do right now. They should pre-emptively quarantine the players and their families, and the same for essential staff. Separate staff members into those with contact to players and those with not. Then do that on every club, on every level. All promotions and non-essential gatherings banned. No fan meetings. No travel.

They should use the visibility of premier league to inform the audience about how to disinfect and wash hands, like have some of the players demonstrate the proper techniques pre-game, and do it in all matches. Public announcements could be made that way. Grumpy old men who wouldn't listen to anybody might be convinced if the players do it."

[Indy 3,286]

14 minutes ago, Upo said:

The reason why I'm banging on this goddamn drum is the countless articles which say stupid things like "It's not as bad as they say."

Now get your mindset right. This is not about panicking. This is about contributing in a responsible way to a potential, even likely, disaster by making sure you are fanatical about hygiene, and buy enough supplies in your home so you don't have to go out if you catch covid 19 (or some random other disease) for 2 to 3 weeks. Food, medicine, hand sanitizers, soap, atleast 10 liters of water (3 days requirement) per person etc.

Here:

https://www.ready.gov/pandemic

Most of the measures cost very little. It's your behaviour and expectations that have to adjust to an alien situation. You can't wait for the government for this. You need to do your part.

But that’s just hygiene, I do this every day, having worked offshore for many years hygienic is key, added to years of watching loved ones battle cancer my hygiene has always been as good as it can be as those who have gone through chemo will no doubt know, so I don’t really understand why it takes a virus to adjust the dirty population!

Additionally the demographic most at risk have serious underlying issues, the virus itself does not kill, it attacked the immune system which is generally at risk from other ailments!

Regardless of how you look at it it’s a virus and like the flu strain it’s dangerous to those with weaknesses, but it’s not the Coronavirus but the reaction, you can’t self isolate everyone, we need power, fuel production medical care......infrastructure.

[Upo 91]

Wacky, that's the sort of stuff they used to do during war time. You know, tell people to not waste things or to buy government bonds etc. Some famous movie star would literally go around doing publicity tours on any given topic. And that's all they would do. Tell people to buy bonds and save gas etc. We look at it as quaint, but think about it this way:

Where can you reach the most men in the risk group? Football I think is as good as an answer I can think of beyond evening news...but it's very different coming from Virgil Van Dijk than some wimpy looking public servant. And people really do not know how to wash their hands and disinfect their hands. Most do it wrong. Or don't do it at all. (Again older men)

Edit:

I mean if Grant Hanley told you to wash your f**** hands, wouldn't you do it? If Krul told you how he prepares for 2021 Euros and rubbed sanitizer all over his hands and told you to step up, wouldn't you do it?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Upo

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

I saw this quote on Facebook from a doctor:

"I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared. 

I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil.  I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.

What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and  strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess. 

I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even 
imagine?

I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession. 

But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.

Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it.  Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous. 

I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.

Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it."

There are two sides of this coin. 

 

Anyway, in Italy there have been over 4000 cases, so a decent sample size, and 197 deaths. Of those deaths, the average age was 81. That's the AVERAGE AGE. EIGHTY-ONE.

It seems that if you're over 75, it's a death sentence. If you're 65-75, you might be in trouble, particularly if you have other health problems. If you're under 65, you shouldn't really have anything to worry about. 

[ron obvious 1,501]

Mass culling best answer. Well, it worked for foot & mouth.

Only A Modest Proposal you understand 😉

 

[Foxy2600 297]

“The Kids are Alright”

The WHO.....

[The Real Buh 3,423]

6 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I saw this quote on Facebook from a doctor:

"I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared. 

I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil.  I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.

What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and  strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess. 

I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even 
imagine?

I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession. 

But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.

Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it.  Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous. 

I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.

Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it."

There are two sides of this coin. 

 

Anyway, in Italy there have been over 4000 cases, so a decent sample size, and 197 deaths. Of those deaths, the average age was 81. That's the AVERAGE AGE. EIGHTY-ONE.

It seems that if you're over 75, it's a death sentence. If you're 65-75, you might be in trouble, particularly if you have other health problems. If you're under 65, you shouldn't really have anything to worry about. 

Why are all doctors so flouncy?

[ricardo 7,348]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Why are all doctors so flouncy?

And on Facebook.

[Upo 91]

Wacky. That is a rambling, clinically speaking suspicious post by a person who probably has not seen a patient in his life. Even WHO, which is being very measured about this, doesn't belittle the seriousness of the situation this way.

Just listen to the Harvad epidemiologist instead of some fool in Facebook. If a Harvard epidemiologist makes a mistake, he's out in a serious manner like this. His career is over. If someone in facebook says something, there are no repercussions. You don't even know who that person is.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

And on Facebook.

“Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it."

I mean... come on. Give it a rest.

 

All doctors I’ve encountered online believe they are social pariahs of sorts. Massive, massive superiority complexes. You can see how so many, especially surgeons, end up getting god complex.

[Indy 3,286]

1 minute ago, Upo said:

Wacky. That is a rambling, clinically speaking suspicious post by a person who probably has not seen a patient in his life. Even WHO, which is being very measured about this, doesn't belittle the seriousness of the situation this way.

Just listen to the Harvad epidemiologist instead of some fool in Facebook. If a Harvard epidemiologist makes a mistake, he's out in a serious manner like this. His career is over. If someone in facebook says something, there are no repercussions. You don't even know who that person is.

The Harvard epidemiologist is just one person with his opinion and ramblings too, no different to any other! The facts are those at risk are the same for flu.......the over reaction has potential to cause more casualties if not handled better due to potential shortages.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

5 minutes ago, Upo said:

Wacky. That is a rambling, clinically speaking suspicious post by a person who probably has not seen a patient in his life. Even WHO, which is being very measured about this, doesn't belittle the seriousness of the situation this way.

Just listen to the Harvad epidemiologist instead of some fool in Facebook. If a Harvard epidemiologist makes a mistake, he's out in a serious manner like this. His career is over. If someone in facebook says something, there are no repercussions. You don't even know who that person is.

What makes one specialist more special than any other, out of interest? I've seen conflicting opinions from medical progessionals. It is similar to Brexit- some experts said it would be great, some said it would be terrible. It's no different with coronavirus. Some say it's a storm in a teacup, some say the human race is in jeopardy.

I prefer to go for the statistical approach. If you're over 70, you're in trouble, and it's understandable for anyone of that age to be worried. For anyone under, let's say 60, there is more chance of being killed by lightning or being struck on the head by a flying coconut.

[daly 500]

If I happen to see any of the NCFC players out over the weekend I am most definitely going to approach them to see if they will accompany me to the nearest toilet to show me how I should wash my hands. Anyone else needing instructions please contact me at the nearest water fountain 

[Upo 91]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

The Harvard epidemiologist is just one person with his opinion and ramblings too, no different to any other! The facts are those at risk are the same for flu.......the over reaction has potential to cause more casualties if not handled better due to potential shortages.

You know, we live in a society where we specialize into different functions where we are by definition specialists. Say, you wouldn't say to Krul that he's just another person, that what the hell does he know about penalties. The same way you wouldn't say to a Harvard epidemiologist that his opinions are as valuable as anybody else's.

Anyway, let's not get too philosophical about this. Here are actual facts. Not made up "facts". You can know which is which by looking at where it is from. 

[Indy 3,286]

1 minute ago, Upo said:

You know, we live in a society where we specialize into different functions where we are by definition specialists. Say, you wouldn't say to Krul that he's just another person, that what the hell does he know about penalties. The same way you wouldn't say to a Harvard epidemiologist that his opinions are as valuable as anybody else's.

Anyway, let's not get too philosophical about this. Here are actual facts. Not made up "facts". You can know which is which by looking at where it is from. 

That’s not taking into a point like for like, so do more research before you preach and try to cause panic, Mr Panic.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

4 minutes ago, Upo said:

You know, we live in a society where we specialize into different functions where we are by definition specialists. Say, you wouldn't say to Krul that he's just another person, that what the hell does he know about penalties. The same way you wouldn't say to a Harvard epidemiologist that his opinions are as valuable as anybody else's.

Anyway, let's not get too philosophical about this. Here are actual facts. Not made up "facts". You can know which is which by looking at where it is from. 

Whoever made that clearly has an agenda. What's the death rate for those 80+ from regular flu, for example? Is there a reason why they left the threshold for regular flu so low, but sub-divided the older age groups in the coronavirus chart to leave a sea of red?

[Indy 3,286]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Whoever made that clearly has an agenda. What's the death rate for those 80+ from regular flu, for example? Is there a reason why they left the threshold for regular flu so low, but sub-divided the older age groups in the coronavirus chart to leave a sea of red?

This years flu strain is actually more prevalent than previous years, this is with vaccine too.
 

I’m done with this debate it’s boring, if I make 81 I’ll be very happy. 😷

Edited March 7, 2020 by Indy

[Upo 91]

4 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

What makes one specialist more special than any other, out of interest? I've seen conflicting opinions from medical progessionals. It is similar to Brexit- some experts said it would be great, some said it would be terrible. It's no different with coronavirus. Some say it's a storm in a teacup, some say the human race is in jeopardy.

I prefer to go for the statistical approach. If you're over 70, you're in trouble, and it's understandable for anyone of that age to be worried. For anyone under, let's say 60, there is more chance of being killed by lightning or being struck on the head by a flying coconut.

 

We don't usually lack information. We usually lack KNOWLEDGE. That is, usable and applicable information. I recommend reading Nate Silver's Signal And The Noise. Currently we lack both information and reliable applicable knowledge. Or rather, we are gathering information and applying our previous knowledge from previous epidemics and pandemics. We're making it up as we go, making the best possible decisions we can make.

Now, anybody understands that if another person has 20% risk of dying from an infection, and another person 0.2% chance of dying, then the first person should be more careful. Right?

Well, an epidemiologist would look at it and ask if those two people had hung around eachother and whether there are other people they've spent time with, and whether it's better to keep the 0.2% individual locked up if he's the sort of person who'd travel to say North Italy on vacation until he's been tested, or lock up the 20% individual on the grounds that we can't prevent the 0.2% people from catching it because they don't think it's that dangerous and will travel to North Italy despite being adviced not to.

Statistics are useless unless you ask the right questions and understand what the answers mean. You have to know quite a bit to ask the right questions. That's why we have epidemiologists, doctors and whatnot.

[Upo 91]

12 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Whoever made that clearly has an agenda. What's the death rate for those 80+ from regular flu, for example? Is there a reason why they left the threshold for regular flu so low, but sub-divided the older age groups in the coronavirus chart to leave a sea of red?

....on another look at it seems you're honest and quite reasonable so I'll withdraw this post and answer you in more measured manner.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Upo

[Indy 3,286]

6 minutes ago, Upo said:

 

We don't usually lack information. We usually lack KNOWLEDGE. That is, usable and applicable information. I recommend reading Nate Silver's Signal And The Noise. Currently we lack both information and reliable applicable knowledge. Or rather, we are gathering information and applying our previous knowledge from previous epidemics and pandemics. We're making it up as we go, making the best possible decisions we can make.

Now, anybody understands that if another person has 20% risk of dying from an infection, and another person 0.2% chance of dying, then the first person should be more careful. Right?

Well, an epidemiologist would look at it and ask if those two people had hung around eachother and whether there are other people they've spent time with, and whether it's better to keep the 0.2% individual locked up if he's the sort of person who'd travel to say North Italy on vacation until he's been tested, or lock up the 20% individual on the grounds that we can't prevent the 0.2% people from catching it because they don't think it's that dangerous and will travel to North Italy despite being adviced not to.

Statistics are useless unless you ask the right questions and understand what the answers mean. You have to know quite a bit to ask the right questions. That's why we have epidemiologists, doctors and whatnot.

You are City 1st, Bill or whatever your new log in maybe....... Brexit has been done now you’re the expert on viruses!

[City 2nd 191]

Michael Wynn Jones, Delia’s better half is 79!!

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

3 minutes ago, Upo said:

 

We don't usually lack information. We usually lack KNOWLEDGE. That is, usable and applicable information. I recommend reading Nate Silver's Signal And The Noise. Currently we lack both information and reliable applicable knowledge. Or rather, we are gathering information and applying our previous knowledge from previous epidemics and pandemics. We're making it up as we go, making the best possible decisions we can make.

Now, anybody understands that if another person has 20% risk of dying from an infection, and another person 0.2% chance of dying, then the first person should be more careful. Right?

Well, an epidemiologist would look at it and ask if those two people had hung around eachother and whether there are other people they've spent time with, and whether it's better to keep the 0.2% individual locked up if he's the sort of person who'd travel to say North Italy on vacation until he's been tested, or lock up the 20% individual on the grounds that we can't prevent the 0.2% people from catching it because they don't think it's that dangerous and will travel to North Italy despite being adviced not to.

Statistics are useless unless you ask the right questions and understand what the answers mean. You have to know quite a bit to ask the right questions. That's why we have epidemiologists, doctors and whatnot.

Something we agree on, by the looks of it.

By now, however, the virus is so widespread that the only way to stem the flow is to quarantine everyone. There are 136 cases in the UK, plus no doubt hundreds of others who have recently contracted it but are yet to show symptoms, and I'm sure it will be in the thousands within a week or two. 

The only option is to quarantine, or self-isolate, everyone. In Italy they've closed the stadiums, but everyone will congregate at the bar to watch the game anyway. They've closed the schools, but all the teenagers will still go out with their friends. They've closed the universities but all the students from the south who were studying in the north have returned home so the numbers in the south are about to explode too. 

Closing some things but leaving others open means everyone will flock to the places that are open and serve very little purpose.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,783]

2 minutes ago, Upo said:

Wow you really are convinced this is some sort of conspiracy. In my experience conspiracy people are impossible to convince. They have made up their minds and will not change it. Therefore I won't waste any time spelling this out for you. (Hint: you can look at the covid-19 columns and see that all over 60 years are 5 to 20 times higher. Also if you look carefully, you will see there is a number attacked to each column. .2 for example means 0,2%. Which is 10 times higher than .02. You'll figure out the rest.)

You've completely missed my point, but never mind.

[Upo 91]

2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

You've completely missed my point, but never mind.

Sorry. I withdrew my post. Took you for something you were not. Honest question demands honest answer, which I didn't give you.