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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Most of the time this season Kenny's been our near post man. 

All I saw when I read your post Lizardo was jamie vardy  getting across Kenny at the near post to score.... then an image of his(kennys)  goal v man  city replaced it. Bad and Good at the near post in milliseconds. 

FWIW I think Kenny  maclean  was a very astute purchase. Has gone from Scottish Prem to English prem and looked decent in most  games. And he was hysterical getting sprayed in that pimped down car thingy  on the telly, he almost shat himself when the ticker tape firework went off at the end. Should look boss next season IF we go down.

Note to Lakeyo, being left footed and Scottish,  have you ever considered him as Dorrans left wing replacement? If not , why not. 

Edited by wcorkcanary

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This zonal marking thing is a total red herring KG.

Not at all. We defend crosses in the six yard box. That is the keepers area. But he gets rooted on his line because therre are four or five players in that area.

I agree about the jumping but too many times we end up with, as an analogy, Buendia against a six foot player.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

All I saw when I read your post Lizardo was jamie vardy  getting across Kenny at the near post to score.... then an image of his(kennys)  goal v man  city replaced it. Bad and Good at the near post in milliseconds. 

FWIW I think Kenny  maclean  was a very astute purchase. Has gone from Scottish Prem to English prem and looked decent in most  games. And he was hysterical getting sprayed in that pimped down car thingy  on the telly, he almost shat himself when the ticker tape firework went off at the end. Should look boss next season IF we go down.

Note to Lakeyo, being left footed and Scottish,  have you ever considered him as Dorrans left wing replacement? If not , why not. 

He's generally done a pretty good job  at the near post, but also got caught out a bit for Chris Wood's goal from a corner at Burnley (although to be fair it was a brilliant delivery from Westwood). 

As for him playing on the left wing - best that you don't show Lakey 1.36 to 1.45 on this or he'll be getting ideas..........

 

Edited by Thirsty Lizard

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14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

This zonal marking thing is a total red herring KG.

Not at all. We defend crosses in the six yard box. That is the keepers area. But he gets rooted on his line because therre are four or five players in that area.

I agree about the jumping but too many times we end up with, as an analogy, Buendia against a six foot player.

Yes, but that would happen to an even greater extent if we tried to mark man-to-man at corners. The problem is that overall we've got a short team which isn't particularly good in the air. The reality is that Premier League teams are horribly good at exploiting weaknesses at corners and free kicks. Zonal marking at corners is the least worst  way for us to defend these, given the limitations we're working under. 

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20 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

He's generally done a pretty good job  at the near post, but also got caught out a bit for Chris Wood's goal from a corner at Burnley (although to be fair it was a brilliant delivery from Westwood). 

As for him playing on the left wing - best that you don't show Lakey 1.36 to 1.45 on this or he'll be getting ideas..........

To be fair, I think most of our players are capable to play out wide. They may not be specialist wide players, but at various points in a match, given our fluid approach to the game, you will see different players wide right or left. Maybe not quite so much this season as last, but they are still capable of doing the job. Maclean has such a good left foot too, should be no problem to play wide. 

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52 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

To be fair, I think most of our players are capable to play out wide. They may not be specialist wide players, but at various points in a match, given our fluid approach to the game, you will see different players wide right or left. Maybe not quite so much this season as last, but they are still capable of doing the job. Maclean has such a good left foot too, should be no problem to play wide. 

Oh well done Thirsty.

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6 hours ago, hogesar said:

Bit too simplistic to say "we didn't concede so therefore"...

I couldn't disagree with you more so thought i'd look up the stats (source: whoscored.com)

 Vrancic was statistically our worst player by some considerable distance, only achieving a 5.7 rating. He was dispossessed 3 time from a holding midfielder position, which at this level of football is usually suicidal. Vrancic only made one successful tackle. Comparably in less time, Mclean wasn't dispossessed once but won the ball for us 3 times. In fact, Vrancic was the worst rated player across both sides.

As I said, I love Vrancic. I was defending him during his first season when people said he was no good. But anyone claiming that Wednesday is a good example as to why we should start him is seeing a very different game to the general footballing world!

Stats can be interpreted in many ways, are not dynamic enough to truly analyse a players performance. One quick google search and the Independents match rating for Vrancic; 

Mario Vrancic – 7

Supported Todd Cantwell and Buendia’s attacking ventures admirably.

Far from the worst player, in fact only one player was rated higher. Get my point? 

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3 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Not strange at all, you've answered your own question.  In the Champs  , we can play vrancic and trybull  cos we tended to dominate  possession  and often were on top.  Need to be tighter to get through  this season hence tettey McLean. 

Need to be tighter, but results in being bottom of the league... If it was working with Tettey and Mclean fair enough, but the results are hardly supporting that, are they?!

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4 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Stats can be interpreted in many ways, are not dynamic enough to truly analyse a players performance. One quick google search and the Independents match rating for Vrancic; 

Mario Vrancic – 7

Supported Todd Cantwell and Buendia’s attacking ventures admirably.

Far from the worst player, in fact only one player was rated higher. Get my point? 

You’re right, it comes down to opinions as well.
 

I agree with Farke, Vrancic isn’t good enough for the PL.

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7 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

You’re right, it comes down to opinions as well.
 

I agree with Farke, Vrancic isn’t good enough for the PL.

So despite being rooted to the bottom of the league, Kenny Mclean is good enough? 

For the record, if Farke didn't think Vrancic was good enough for the PL he wouldn't have played him this season at all. The fact he has, albeit sparingly, suggests that isn't Farke's belief.  

I must have dreamt that first half display at home to Spurs. If your not good enough, you don't impress like that. 

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Oh well done Thirsty.

I didn't start it - it was wcorkcanary (not that I'm a grass or anything). 

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2 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

Need to be tighter, but results in being bottom of the league... If it was working with Tettey and Mclean fair enough, but the results are hardly supporting that, are they?!

Never said they were, but vrancic/ teybull would be looser for sure.

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8 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I didn't start it - it was wcorkcanary (not that I'm a grass or anything)

What have i done now?  I thought it was a well cast Fly , right  on the Wild Cumbrian Trout's nose. 

Love Kenny's versatility. Good all round player . 

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2 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

So despite being rooted to the bottom of the league, Kenny Mclean is good enough? 

For the record, if Farke didn't think Vrancic was good enough for the PL he wouldn't have played him this season at all. The fact he has, albeit sparingly, suggests that isn't Farke's belief.  

I must have dreamt that first half display at home to Spurs. If your not good enough, you don't impress like that. 

Ok I’ll change my statement to ‘he’s not good enough to be playing in the PL...consistently.’

You clearly rate Vrancic, that’s great, I do too and would love to see him succeed at this higher level. His free kick against sheff wed was one of the highlights of my city supporting days for pure emotion and anticipation.

I simply just don’t think he’s as good an all round player in that position as McLean. They’re both creative (McLean playing as a no10 was promising in the PL whilst Vrancic struggled even at champ level) but Farke clearly wants a more rounded player that can do the dirty work, intercept, win more headers etc. That’s McLean, not Vrancic.

As has been said he’s a luxury player that we can get away with playing at times but there comes much more of a risk playing Vrancic, and with Buendia, Cantwell, Duda and McLean himself there’s enough creativity without taking that risk.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

So despite being rooted to the bottom of the league, Kenny Mclean is good enough

The debate wasn’t about good enough, just who is the better player. Surely you can see McLean is a better defensive minded midfielder than Vrancic?

We’ll never know but I very much doubt that McLean starting ahead of Vrancic is the reason we’re bottom of the league.

Edited by Fiery Zac
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8 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

Ok I’ll change my statement to ‘he’s not good enough to be playing in the PL...consistently.’

You clearly rate Vrancic, that’s great, I do too and would love to see him succeed at this higher level. His free kick against sheff wed was one of the highlights of my city supporting days for pure emotion and anticipation.

I simply just don’t think he’s as good an all round player in that position as McLean. They’re both creative (McLean playing as a no10 was promising in the PL whilst Vrancic struggled even at champ level) but Farke clearly wants a more rounded player that can do the dirty work, intercept, win more headers etc. That’s McLean, not Vrancic.

As has been said he’s a luxury player that we can get away with playing at times but there comes much more of a risk playing Vrancic, and with Buendia, Cantwell, Duda and McLean himself there’s enough creativity without taking that risk.

Agree with this.

I too like seeing Vrancic play and he certainly offers something other don't. However, it is clear Kenny McLean is a more solid type player, winning a number of duels and has an eye for goal.

 For the record I would like to see Vrancic on the pitch more, but you can not ignore the times he has been brushed aside in games and left us slightly vulnerable.

I can only see Kenny McLean getting better and better, hopefully with us.

 

 

 

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Vrancic is more of a pure footballer than KM, the sort of footballer you want to watch. Unfortunately being a professional footballer at this level has more to it than that- Kenny has that extra athleticism and spades more of the dark arts of gamesmanship which make him more suited to a starting role for us.

He comes across as quite arrogant and loudmouthed, but I'm willing to bet when things get tough he's the first man up and others will follow that. Reckon he's one of the squad leaders, only have to look at Wednesday's shootout for evidence.

Side note on zonal marking. Agree with the notion it is the 'least worst' option for us but it need a tweaking. Too many times the opposition is allowed to dictate positionally which means things like van Dijk v Jams Lewis or Vertonghen v Vrancic, those battles only go one way.

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2 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Vrancic is more of a pure footballer than KM, the sort of footballer you want to watch. Unfortunately being a professional footballer at this level has more to it than that- Kenny has that extra athleticism and spades more of the dark arts of gamesmanship which make him more suited to a starting role for us.

He comes across as quite arrogant and loudmouthed, but I'm willing to bet when things get tough he's the first man up and others will follow that. Reckon he's one of the squad leaders, only have to look at Wednesday's shootout for evidence.

Side note on zonal marking. Agree with the notion it is the 'least worst' option for us but it need a tweaking. Too many times the opposition is allowed to dictate positionally which means things like van Dijk v Jams Lewis or Vertonghen v Vrancic, those battles only go one way.

Does he? I've never thought about Kenny at all. I agree he seems to have some good leadership qualities, but on the pitch and in media interviews he never seems "arrogant and loudmouthed" to me, quite the opposite in fact.

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11 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

The debate wasn’t about good enough, just who is the better player. Surely you can see McLean is a better defensive minded midfielder than Vrancic?

We’ll never know but I very much doubt that McLean starting ahead of Vrancic is the reason we’re bottom of the league.

Yes he is, but not to the degree that some are making out. Kenny is industrious and hardworking, but not particularly strong in the tackle and does also get caught in possession, like Mario. When Kenny was moved further forward I thought he looked better. Everton away he was brilliant. 

Mario isn't a defensive player, but does suit that deeper position. The issue is, we don't have a good enough defensive midfielder to partner him. As mentioned before, failing to upgrade Tettey has cost Vrancic more game time IMO. Tettey's inadequacies are less obvious with Kenny next to him.

We all have favourites, and I don't hide for one minute that Vrancic is very far from being a complete player. But he can do special things and is very creative. He's a bit of an enigma, thus making it hard for Farke to feel confident picking him, but he does have that habit of a creating or scoring a goal from no where. 

As I said, that spurs performance was pretty special from him. 

 

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Let's not forget that Lambert used to play Fox at the bottom of the diamond, and he wasn't a great tackler or strong physical presence, but what he could (and did) do was spray the ball around to make things happen from that deeper position, and I see Vrancic in a very similar way tbh.

Nobody complained about Pirlo's tackling or lack of strength, nobody whined about Xabi Alonso sitting deep and playing 40 yard balls forward, but when Vrancic does it, suddenly they become serious issues and we have to pick a more workmanlike player instead!

There will absolutely be games where McLean is better suited, and others where Vrancic surely offers us much more creatively. Sadly Vrancic has been given little chance this season over McLean.

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12 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

Let's not forget that Lambert used to play Fox at the bottom of the diamond, and he wasn't a great tackler or strong physical presence, but what he could (and did) do was spray the ball around to make things happen from that deeper position, and I see Vrancic in a very similar way tbh.

Nobody complained about Pirlo's tackling or lack of strength, nobody whined about Xabi Alonso sitting deep and playing 40 yard balls forward, but when Vrancic does it, suddenly they become serious issues and we have to pick a more workmanlike player instead!

There will absolutely be games where McLean is better suited, and others where Vrancic surely offers us much more creatively. Sadly Vrancic has been given little chance this season over McLean.

Good point regarding Fox. I think a diamond with Vrancic at the base could be the way to go for the rest of the season. 

Something like; 

 

                                Vrancic 

           Rupp                                    Mclean 

                               Buendia

                           Pukki   Drmic 

 

Nothing to lose now. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Good point regarding Fox. I think a diamond with Vrancic at the base could be the way to go for the rest of the season. 

Something like; 

 

                                Vrancic 

           Rupp                                    Mclean 

                               Buendia

                           Pukki   Drmic 

 

Nothing to lose now. 

 

Not for me. 

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We simply can't defend well enough to justify having Vrancic in that deep role. I get where his strengths lie but we need someone around there that can help out at the back. 

I would like to see Vrancic and Godfrey paired here but that'll never happen. 

And, Indy, I don't think there's a comparison to be made between Pirlo, Alonso and us. They had a very different squad around to be able to do their magic.

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This will sound harsh but all our central midfield problems stem from the failure to upgrade on Tettey.

Both Vrancic and Leitner are a bit lightweight and not hugely mobile so they need a defensive partner who has the mobility and the dynamism to play horizontally and offer them the cover they need to use their passing abilities. Tettey isn't able to do this and so those players weaknesses get hugely exposed. 

So Tettey gets paired with McLean who lacks the passing range of either Vrancic or Leitner but does have the mobility to work with Tettey a bit better in terms of not laving the defense horribly exposed. He isn't good enough defensively to play with one of Vrancic or Trybull though so we end up with a midfield two that isn't hugely creative and also not that amazing defensively but not as hugely over exposed as any combination that includes Vrancic or Leitner.

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On 07/03/2020 at 19:25, Indy_Bones said:

Why do we need the cover now when we didn't have it under Lambert with Fox?

Why don't we need cover just because Lambert managed to go without it with Fox?

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Last Season I honestly found Kenny really frustrating, when we extended his contract I was shocked and thought it a bad decision, I couldn't see how he'd fit into the squad this year as Leitner and Vrancic looked to have more class about them.

That being said, when he isn't playing (FA CUP) we miss him, I don't think we appreciate how much he does until he's not there. He reminds me a bit of Howson, who never really wowed me, but I'd never willingly take him out the squad as he did a lot of mopping up and was a pest to the opposition.

Do I think he is a leading Prem player, no, but he is probably one of the better midfielders we have at the moment

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I think a player who has been hugely unfortunate to have been left out as much as he has is Trybull. I have never liked us playing Kenny in that deeper midfield role, even last season when we were on a heck of a run because we were not controlling matches in midfield and were relying on our attacking quality to wink us games. That was fine at that level because it did but at this level it isn't. I just feel Trybull is better on the ball and better at receiving the ball from the back four and bringing it out. I think its no coincidence that several of our more fluid midfield displays have been in the cup recently when he and Vrancic played and I think he also started next to Tettey at Everton which was one of our best displays of the season. 

Trybull has the odd ropey game but generally speaking I think our midfield operates better with him in that role than Kenny. McClean has been better when played further forward and I have nothing against him at all. Seems a good lad, a likeable character and he's never really let us down at all but I don't think we have got the midfield balance right really for the whole season.

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Posted (edited)
On 07/03/2020 at 19:15, king canary said:

This will sound harsh but all our central midfield problems stem from the failure to upgrade on Tettey.

Both Vrancic and Leitner are a bit lightweight and not hugely mobile so they need a defensive partner who has the mobility and the dynamism to play horizontally and offer them the cover they need to use their passing abilities. Tettey isn't able to do this and so those players weaknesses get hugely exposed. 

So Tettey gets paired with McLean who lacks the passing range of either Vrancic or Leitner but does have the mobility to work with Tettey a bit better in terms of not laving the defense horribly exposed. He isn't good enough defensively to play with one of Vrancic or Trybull though so we end up with a midfield two that isn't hugely creative and also not that amazing defensively but not as hugely over exposed as any combination that includes Vrancic or Leitner.

Not harsh at all.   This is exactly how it is.    The DCM players used so far have been unable to control that area of the park or gel an otherwise talented group together and only Tettey and McLean are now trusted to offer any sort of consistency.    Recent results are evidence that it isn't quite enough and this has to be the first position to resolve next transfer window.    Continuing in the same vein is likely to result in similar outcomes.... narrow defeats.    Which is why it's time to gamble on Godfrey in midfield, after all, Leitner, Trybull and Vrancic and Amadou have too many deficiencies / not enough efficiencies.   

..... Godfrey can offer pace, power, energy, defensive nous and can find our more creative players / has a decent passing accuracy.... some on here will cry ' it ain't gonna happen' and perhaps not, just saying if we are to change it and we need to, Godfrey is the only option now available in that DCM position that might just make the impact or provide the catalyst we require at this stage. 

next question will be.... so what happens to Leitner, Trybull, Vrancic, Steipermann, etc... for next season...   For another debate but there seems little point keeping them if they can't step up to this level.   For one, they now know they can't quite cut it and will have less desire for promotion - that's if the miracle doesn't happen of course.  

OTBC

 

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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41 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I think a player who has been hugely unfortunate to have been left out as much as he has is Trybull. I have never liked us playing Kenny in that deeper midfield role, even last season when we were on a heck of a run because we were not controlling matches in midfield and were relying on our attacking quality to wink us games. That was fine at that level because it did but at this level it isn't. I just feel Trybull is better on the ball and better at receiving the ball from the back four and bringing it out. I think its no coincidence that several of our more fluid midfield displays have been in the cup recently when he and Vrancic played and I think he also started next to Tettey at Everton which was one of our best displays of the season. 

Trybull has the odd ropey game but generally speaking I think our midfield operates better with him in that role than Kenny. McClean has been better when played further forward and I have nothing against him at all. Seems a good lad, a likeable character and he's never really let us down at all but I don't think we have got the midfield balance right really for the whole season.

Tom has the same problem as most of our others. Not strong enough. Too easily knocked off the ball.

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