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On 02/03/2020 at 12:01, ged in the onion bag said:

Fact is we've played this season carrying players in those two CDM positions.   None have been good enough and it's the one area that if we were effective, it would allow all our creative players more confidence to express themselves and our full-backs to get further forward more often. 

Very disappointing that we haven't even tried Godfrey in there to see what difference it might make.... given our results there's really nothing to lose.

Perhaps Daniel has been too stubborn and you have to wonder whether as a club we are too sentimental.... can't see the mileage in keeping Tettey around for another season if he's not good enough for the Premier League (he isn't), then why not look to develop a player that will be.      Godfrey has all the ability to be that player.

1st paragraph is spot on.

2nd paragraph you have to remember we have had more injuries to centre halves this year than most teams get in three years. Farke sees Godfrey as a centre half, and with bodies needed in that position, he was never going to be moved into midfield. 

3rd paragraph - We're keeping Tettey because he's the best defensive midfielder we've got, he's a former international player with experience we don't have a lot of within the squad, and he's a popular member of the team. I would hope that there are plans to purchase/develop a replacement ahead of next season, but it doesn't mean there isn't space for him in the squad. 

And, of course, its exceptionally likely we aren't going to be a Premier League side next season, and he is still good enough for the Championship.

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It is hard to judge Mario vs Kenny fairly at the moment because one of them has played consistently and one has barely played. Wed night was a prime example of how hard it is to judge them - Mario gets his first start in quite a while, then Kenny, with lots of recent game time, comes on late when he has fresh legs compared to others, so natually looked really proactive.

I think as others have said, Mario's got an incredible pass on him, better than Kenny, plus set pieces, but Kenny is better all round. It depends at this stage of the season if we want to be more solid in midfield, or create more goal scoring ops?

Personally I'd solve this by playing Mario instead of Rupp who just doesn't seem to add anything much.

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Posted (edited)

No decisions about playing staff can be made until we are absolutely certain about what league we will be playing in next season.

We all know what the probable is, but there are a few decent home fixtures left which are winnable and even the most pessimistic among us has to appreciate that.

If we are, as it seems, destined to our habitual quick return to the Championship then players like Tettey, McClean, Vrancic and Steipermann, Trybull and Hernandez (my fav.) etc.will be best kept. I believe both Pukki and Krul are fixtures as, at their age and previous they should realise where they are best placed. Ditto Farke. We should have enough money to keep them interested

We willhave to then see just how many of our youngsters we can keep away from the PL  clubs unless they are prepared to pay a King's Ransom for each.

Last night showed with Idah that the conveyor belt of youth is prospering as there are also a few others who might well come to the fore at Championship level. We continue t opluck the most promising of youngsters from lower league clubs a la Maddison eg Sam McCallum, Dixon-Peters.

Next season as a Championship club should rival the last.Next season as a PL club should be marginally better than this. We should at least be with the also rans and not cut adrift..

Edited by BroadstairsR
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36 minutes ago, King of spain said:

 

I must be one of the few to think Mclean has been one of our top performers this season to date

 

No you’re not the only one. McLean is underrated by fans (myself included last season until he won me over with consistently strong performances). Statistically the best of the CDMs next to Tettey last season, he’s clearly much better equipped with his all round game to be effective in the PL compared to Vrancic or Leitner.

Excellent reading of the game, strong in a tackle and the air, decent pace and vision for a pass (though admittedly not as big a range as Vrancic), as has been said, watch him play rather than the ball, then you’ll see 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

No you’re not the only one. McLean is underrated by fans (myself included last season until he won me over with consistently strong performances). Statistically the best of the CDMs next to Tettey last season, he’s clearly much better equipped with his all round game to be effective in the PL compared to Vrancic or Leitner.

Excellent reading of the game, strong in a tackle and the air, decent pace and vision for a pass (though admittedly not as big a range as Vrancic), as has been said, watch him play rather than the ball, then you’ll see 

To be fair to Vrancic, he was unlucky not to score (with a blocked shot which looked like it was heading in) and made a few key passes too. His energy for that position is probably a little on the low side, but I much prefer him taking freekicks or corners over Buendia. For me Buendias delivery is often poor and amounts to nothing and our set piece game is so poor currently.

Edited by jaberry2
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Just now, jaberry2 said:

To be fair to Vrancic, he was unlucky not to score (with a blocked shot which looked like it was heading in) and made a few key passes too. He energy for that position is probably a little on the low side, but I much prefer him taking freekicks or corners over Buendia. For me Buendias delivery is often poor and amounts to nothing and our set piece game is so poor currently.

And I like Vrancic. In the post I wrote with my thoughts on the game I said Mario is more creative, he just simply isn’t as equipped for top level football as much as McLean is, and it baffles me that others don’t see it.

I’d love Vrancic to be the player others seem to see in him but he’s just not very good at the defensive side of the game which is so important in the position he’s playing in (and no, he’s not a no10)

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

And I like Vrancic. In the post I wrote with my thoughts on the game I said Mario is more creative, he just simply isn’t as equipped for top level football as much as McLean is, and it baffles me that others don’t see it.

I’d love Vrancic to be the player others seem to see in him but he’s just not very good at the defensive side of the game which is so important in the position he’s playing in (and no, he’s not a no10)

For me, Vrancic in the position he plays doesn't possess the right work rate to occupy that position which Norwich need and that's why I would pick McLean above him. I like Vrancic a lot, but to a degree is a bit of a luxury player at times. With that being said Vrancic is still one of the best in our team at set pieces and can often be one of the most accomplished passers too.

Edited by jaberry2

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10 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

bit of a luxury player

Exactly. A luxury we could afford in the championship. 

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Posted (edited)

Don't think it's been mentioned yet on this thread, but another plus point for McLean is that you can see he's working hard to develop himself as a player. Nowhere is this more evident than the improvement in his weaker right foot. When he first came here he did look rather 'one-footed', but it's been noticeable as this season has gone on that he's got a lot better with his right - smashed one against the bar against Palace with his right and of course on Wednesday night it was his well struck right footed shot that led to our goal. 

Edited by Thirsty Lizard
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My argument in favour of Vrancic is that he offers the range of creativity and passing that we've sadly lacked for too much of the season, leaving Pukki et al with very little ammunition to work with compared to last season.

We saw midweek the number of excellent balls he played to Drmic or out wide to Aarons which none of our other mids can perform with such accuracy and consistency.

The trade-off is his weaker physical presence and lower level of tackling ability compared to say McLean.

Two things win games - defensive stability to not concede, and attacking threat to score goals, but if you don't score the best you can manage is a draw, whereas the goals we've been lacking could get us the wins, but only if our forward line is well supplied with the right kind of balls, Vrancic gives us that in a way that nobody else does IMHO.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

My argument in favour of Vrancic is that he offers the range of creativity and passing that we've sadly lacked for too much of the season, leaving Pukki et al with very little ammunition to work with compared to last season.

We saw midweek the number of excellent balls he played to Drmic or out wide to Aarons which none of our other mids can perform with such accuracy and consistency.

The trade-off is his weaker physical presence and lower level of tackling ability compared to say McLean.

Two things win games - defensive stability to not concede, and attacking threat to score goals, but if you don't score the best you can manage is a draw, whereas the goals we've been lacking could get us the wins, but only if our forward line is well supplied with the right kind of balls, Vrancic gives us that in a way that nobody else does IMHO.

Ah, alas, some sense! 

To win games at this level you need something special. Special is what Vrancic can give you. Sure there is a defensive trade off, but a midfield with Tettey and Mclean over the likes of Vrancic and Trybull is negative and smacks of damage limitation. Vrancic can do things others cannot, Tettey and Mclean may give you consistent 7 out 10s, but that's rarely enough to win games at this level. 

I actually think Kenny was more effective higher up the pitch in any case. 

 

Edited by Il Pirata

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I was disappointed in Mario on Wednesday. I wanted him in the team but wasn't impressed enough to say he improved the side in any way. I know its easy to replace someone after one poor game but the fact is we are running out of games to give anyone time to settle in.

I am really not sure about this one. Kenny looked far more solid when he came on Wednesday. I am not sure whether Kenny and Mario have ever played together before. Maybe another go for Mario but I wouldn't be upset if he was dropped. I just can't make my mind up.

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13 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Unfortunately that goal from a set piece came because Mario didn't block Vertonghen's run and then stayed rooted to the floor while Vertonghen jumped. I love Mario's passing and creativity and he was brilliant for us in the run in last season, but his defensive weakness is an issue in the Premier League. 

You can pick any number of faults from that goal. Krul too hesitant, for example. 

As for the last line, you could equally argue Mcleans creativity weakness is an issue in the PL. 

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5 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

You can pick any number of faults from that goal. Krul too hesitant, for example. 

As for the last line, you could equally argue Mcleans creativity weakness is an issue in the PL. 

Just look at Krul and Hanley's reaction after that goal. They both look at Mario as if to say "FFS Mario....".

The thing about defending in that situation is that it's simply an attitude that's required - not any great skill. You just have to be of the mindset that you're going to do everything in your power to stop the opponent getting a clear header on the ball - and Mario didn't do that.

To be honest I think everyone can see the relative merits of Vrancic and McLean and in the end you just pay your money and take your choice.

McLean is the man in possession at the moment - it's his shirt to lose and Mario has to really impress when he has the chance, to take it back off him. 

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Yep, agreed. I prefer Vrancic, but do rate Mclean. As I've said, I like him behind Pukki with the guile of Buendia and Rupp. 

The biggest issue surrounding it all is Tettey. Well, not so much Tettey, but the failure to upgrade on him. Had we found that mid twenties, powerful, athletic, EPL standard defensive midfielder, I think Vrancic would be a regular alongside him. 

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Vrancic is one of my favourite players but Wednesday night was more of an advert on why Farke knows better than us (and consistently proves it, despite the fact our fans like to think they know better!), rather than an advert for why Vrancic should play more.

 

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It just seems strange that Tettey and Mclean are kept out by Vrancic and Trybull in the championship, yet the tables turned at a higher level in the EPL. 

Playing Tettey and Mclean is the so called 'safer' option, which is negative IMO. Even though I understand why Farke does it. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Vrancic is one of my favourite players but Wednesday night was more of an advert on why Farke knows better than us (and consistently proves it, despite the fact our fans like to think they know better!), rather than an advert for why Vrancic should play more.

 

Again, couldn't disagree more. At times Vrancic was superb, and had those in front of him took their chances he'd have been lauded. His defensive work was apparently abysmal, and proves why Mclean is better. Yet we only conceded one goal from a set piece, whilst we ought to have scored 2 or 3 ourselves. 

Mclean comes on with fresh legs and is suddenly streets ahead of Vrancic. I thought we looked just as likely to concede and much less likely to score, even though the goal did come! 

Edited by Il Pirata

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31 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Again, couldn't disagree more. At times Vrancic was superb, and had those in front of him took their chances he'd have been lauded. His defensive work was apparently abysmal, and proves why Mclean is better. Yet we only conceded one goal from a set piece, whilst we ought to have scored 2 or 3 ourselves. 

Mclean comes on with fresh legs and is suddenly streets ahead of Vrancic. I thought we looked just as likely to concede and much less likely to score, even though the goal did come! 

Bit too simplistic to say "we didn't concede so therefore"...

I couldn't disagree with you more so thought i'd look up the stats (source: whoscored.com)

 Vrancic was statistically our worst player by some considerable distance, only achieving a 5.7 rating. He was dispossessed 3 time from a holding midfielder position, which at this level of football is usually suicidal. Vrancic only made one successful tackle. Comparably in less time, Mclean wasn't dispossessed once but won the ball for us 3 times. In fact, Vrancic was the worst rated player across both sides.

As I said, I love Vrancic. I was defending him during his first season when people said he was no good. But anyone claiming that Wednesday is a good example as to why we should start him is seeing a very different game to the general footballing world!

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

You can pick any number of faults from that goal. 

I would argue there is only one fault. Zonal marking.

This zonal marking thing is a total red herring KG. We defend free kicks  the same way as every other team. It's corners where we defend zonally - and lots of other teams defend corners zonally too.

It doesn't matter whether you're trying to defend zonally or man to man - if you don' jump - both ways will be totally ineffective! 

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We've had no real fixed midfield for the entire season with Farke looking to alternate depending on who he thinks is the best bet considering the opposition. I just wonder whether McLeans tenacity and work rate will mean he starts ahead of Vrnacic against Sheffield Utd. They're a very physical and hard working team, so we'll need to match their intensity.

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I think Kenny deserves to play every game ,he has improved so much and his passing is underated and always puts a shift in ,to be honest I never really rated him but his performances over the last 3 months have been impressive .😄

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I believe Kenny will start tomorrow. Nothing would please Chris Wilder more than for Sheff Utd to hang a couple of free kicks / corners up beyond the far post and for one of his six footers to beat us at the far post to claim an easy 2-0 win. We need Kenny to take that zone with very explicit instructions that it his his job to get in a good challenge.

It's how they made monkeys of us in the home game. It's how Vertonghen got his goal. It's too obvious to ignore.

Otherwise. I think Todd gets a rest tomorrow after two games where he has run himself into the ground.

To me it looked like Emi had cramp in both legs - agonising when it happens but quickly recovered. If he's not fit, I fancy another chance for Steipermann as there have been brief signs that he may be recovering some sort of form. OTBC, more than ever!

 

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12 minutes ago, Pugin said:

I believe Kenny will start tomorrow. Nothing would please Chris Wilder more than for Sheff Utd to hang a couple of free kicks / corners up beyond the far post and for one of his six footers to beat us at the far post to claim an easy 2-0 win. We need Kenny to take that zone with very explicit instructions that it his his job to get in a good challenge.

It's how they made monkeys of us in the home game. It's how Vertonghen got his goal. It's too obvious to ignore.

Otherwise. I think Todd gets a rest tomorrow after two games where he has run himself into the ground.

To me it looked like Emi had cramp in both legs - agonising when it happens but quickly recovered. If he's not fit, I fancy another chance for Steipermann as there have been brief signs that he may be recovering some sort of form. OTBC, more than ever!

 

Why because he hit an amazing penalty.

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37 minutes ago, Pugin said:

I believe Kenny will start tomorrow. Nothing would please Chris Wilder more than for Sheff Utd to hang a couple of free kicks / corners up beyond the far post and for one of his six footers to beat us at the far post to claim an easy 2-0 win. We need Kenny to take that zone with very explicit instructions that it his his job to get in a good challenge.

It's how they made monkeys of us in the home game. It's how Vertonghen got his goal. It's too obvious to ignore.

Otherwise. I think Todd gets a rest tomorrow after two games where he has run himself into the ground.

To me it looked like Emi had cramp in both legs - agonising when it happens but quickly recovered. If he's not fit, I fancy another chance for Steipermann as there have been brief signs that he may be recovering some sort of form. OTBC, more than ever!

 

Most of the time this season Kenny's been our near post man. 

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Bit too simplistic to say "we didn't concede so therefore"...

I couldn't disagree with you more so thought i'd look up the stats (source: whoscored.com)

 Vrancic was statistically our worst player by some considerable distance, only achieving a 5.7 rating. He was dispossessed 3 time from a holding midfielder position, which at this level of football is usually suicidal. Vrancic only made one successful tackle. Comparably in less time, Mclean wasn't dispossessed once but won the ball for us 3 times. In fact, Vrancic was the worst rated player across both sides.

As I said, I love Vrancic. I was defending him during his first season when people said he was no good. But anyone claiming that Wednesday is a good example as to why we should start him is seeing a very different game to the general footballing world!

To be fair to Vrancic one of those times he was dispossessed was when Tybull played him the most ridiculous hospital pass i've ever seen in our own area. It was idiotic and had spurs scored (as they should have done) it would have been game over.

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Is there not a strong argument to play Vrancic over Duda? 
 

I must admit for the blades clash with their overlapping centre-backs I’d be tempted to go with buendia at 10 and rupp doing a defensive job on the right. 

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3 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

It just seems strange that Tettey and Mclean are kept out by Vrancic and Trybull in the championship, yet the tables turned at a higher level in the EPL. 

Playing Tettey and Mclean is the so called 'safer' option, which is negative IMO. Even though I understand why Farke does it. 

The first sentence is true of all (Vrancic, McLean and Leitner) at some point during that season. Vrancic took his chance in the championship late on and made some match winning contributions. However McLean did the same earlier in that season by scoring some great goals (Bristol city?) and kept both Vrancic and Leitner (who had been undroppable up to his injury) out of the side for a long time.

Difference is McLean has adapted to the PL much better than Vrancic. Whilst creative, Vrancic offers too little of anything else to force his way into the team 

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4 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

It just seems strange that Tettey and Mclean are kept out by Vrancic and Trybull in the championship, yet the tables turned at a higher level in the EPL. 

Playing Tettey and Mclean is the so called 'safer' option, which is negative IMO. Even though I understand why Farke does it. 

Not strange at all, you've answered your own question.  In the Champs  , we can play vrancic and trybull  cos we tended to dominate  possession  and often were on top.  Need to be tighter to get through  this season hence tettey McLean. 

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