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Relegation points total

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As City's 8th relegation from the top flight approaches, here are the stats relating to the previous 7:

1973/74:            29 points (2 points for a win, 42 games)

1980/81:            33 points (2 points for a win, 42 games)

1984/85:            49 points (3 points for a win, 42 games)

1994/95:            43 points (3 points for a win, 42 games)

2004/05:            33 points (3 points for a win, 38 games)

2013/14:            33 points (3 points for a win, 38 games)

2014/16:            34 points (3 points for a win, 38 games)

As things stands, a record low points total is looking a distinct possibility.  Discuss.

 

 

 

 

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It's startlingly obvious to anybody who's got two brain cells in their head to rub together. The standard of the Premier League is much higher now than the standard of the top division has ever been previously. 

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1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Chances of getting 33 points?

As near to nil as makes no difference.

Isn't that what you thought about us returning to the PL last season Rickyyyyy?

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2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

No, I was absolutely certain we would get more than 33 points😁

Was that for the season or for your lifetime?🙃

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28 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's startlingly obvious to anybody who's got two brain cells in their head to rub together. The standard of the Premier League is much higher now than the standard of the top division has ever been previously. 

Is it really though? I’d say Liverpool apart, this season every other team has been nothing special. There’s been seasons where English teams have dominated European tournaments having 3 of four teams in the CL semi finals and an all English final. This season Bayern have torn Chelsea and Spurs a new one. Far from being a higher standard I’d say the league is full of average but physical and clinical teams.

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We are going to be relagated from a bang average PL , rock bottom of the table with a very low points haul.  That's has to be failure. Next season we are told a top 6 finish is a success. 

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No, it's the weakest PL in history. But not as weak as last year's Champs🙃

Edited by nutty nigel

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Well I happen to think we WILL get to 35 points. Realise that we don't look to be in great form. Yet we have two sets of (consecutive) 3 games in our remaining fixtures where I am hoping we get results. I stress the word 'hoping'. I have also looked at ideal results (and not being unduly unrealistic either) for Watford, Bournemouth, Brighton and Villa. They may all struggle to reach 35 points. This is my little benchmark. It means 5 victories and a couple of draws. Clinging to straws? Yes. I will cling to any hope until it's extinguished. Yet looking at the games our rivals have in hand gives me a glimmer of light. For me then it simply starts with the Sheff Utd game. I see little out of Arsenal or Man City away or even Leicester at home. Let's see.

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How long is a piece of string?  If it is to be our lowest points total, so be it - but there can have been very few relegation seasons where we have looked like such a good footballing team.  Small consolation I know, but it is relevant to next season if we go down.

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"The standard of the PL is much higher now"

It is, but it has as much to do with new training methods, diet etc. - the sports science industry - together with far better pitches and equipment, as with big money players.  The same applies throughout the Football League - even in League 2 players don't have steak and chips before a match any more, or a fag at half time.  The standard overall is much higher.

The PL is dominated by a few clubs, but that's always been the case - throughout the 70s and 80s Man U, Arsenal or Liverpool won the league nearly every season.  What's different this season is that there are still seven or eight clubs with a real shout of relegation instead of the usual four or five.  To be cut adrift as we are is indefensible.

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1 hour ago, JF said:

Is it really though? I’d say Liverpool apart, this season every other team has been nothing special. There’s been seasons where English teams have dominated European tournaments having 3 of four teams in the CL semi finals and an all English final. This season Bayern have torn Chelsea and Spurs a new one. Far from being a higher standard I’d say the league is full of average but physical and clinical teams.

Yes!!! Really!! It is!!

I've been watching for 49 years now. The technical standard is higher than it's ever been before. The players are fitter than they've ever been before. The players are faster than they've ever been before. The players are bigger and stronger than they've ever been before. Teams are better coached and better organised than they've ever been before.  None of this is remotely surprising because the Premier League is the richest League in the world.

And your mention of European tournaments is frankly a bit weird. You do know that the Champions League final last season was between two English teams right? You do know that the Europa League final last season was between two English teams right?

You do know that there are 4 English teams in the last 16 of the Champions League this season right? 

 

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1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Yes!!! Really!! It is!!

I've been watching for 49 years now. The technical standard is higher than it's ever been before. The players are fitter than they've ever been before. The players are faster than they've ever been before. The players are bigger and stronger than they've ever been before. Teams are better coached and better organised than they've ever been before.  None of this is remotely surprising because the Premier League is the richest League in the world.

And your mention of European tournaments is frankly a bit weird. You do know that the Champions League final last season was between two English teams right? You do know that the Europa League final last season was between two English teams right?

You do know that there are 4 English teams in the last 16 of the Champions League this season right? 

 

If the league is so strong then why are one team walking away with it? Last season there were two phenomenal teams pushing each other all the way.  A newly promoted team are pushing for a Champions League place! As for the European competition, everything you mention is last season. Spurs and Chelsea are practically out of the champions league having been utterly outclassed by German opposition, doesn’t suggest a strong PL to me, suggests last season was stronger. If you believe this is the strongest PL ever then that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion. I certainly don’t think it is. It’s Physical, yes,but nowhere near the strongest PL for quality we’ve seen imo

There is also some pretty wild claims in your post there. The players are faster than they have ever been before? Henry, Giggs, Bale, Ronaldo???  Bigger/stronger? Viera, Drogba, Terry, Keane?? Very unconvinced by these claims 

Edited by JF

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3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's startlingly obvious to anybody who's got two brain cells in their head to rub together. The standard of the Premier League is much higher now than the standard of the top division has ever been previously. 

But that’s not pro rata then. So we don’t have fitter more technical players then!

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Some really interesting comments, especially about the reasons for higher standards in English football. 

Like most people, I'd assumed that more money = more quality, simples.  It's only true up to a point.  Even more important was the revolution in the culture surrounding the game that enabled the Premier League to appeal to a global audience, by playing continental-style football with English intensity.  Money alone could not have done it.  The most important figure in this transformation process was Arsene Wenger.  He wasn't as successful as Sir Alex in terms of trophies, but his influence on the game was far greater.  He more than anyone else was the architect of the Premier League.  Money has disfigured his achievement to some extent, but that's hardly his fault.

 

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4 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's startlingly obvious to anybody who's got two brain cells in their head to rub together. The standard of the Premier League is much higher now than the standard of the top division has ever been previously. 

Rubbish. This has been one of the weakest EPLs in recent memory. We’ve just managed to be the worst team in it.

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3 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Rubbish. This has been one of the weakest EPLs in recent memory. We’ve just managed to be the worst team in it.

I’m beginning to think they have worded their post poorly and meant the Premier League is far stronger in every way than the old first division, which obviously it is and clearly didn’t need to be said.

Edited by JF

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4 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's startlingly obvious to anybody who's got two brain cells in their head to rub together. The standard of the Premier League is much higher now than the standard of the top division has ever been previously. 

Well, I've only got two brain cells so I'll see if I follow your reasoning.

You appear to be suggesting that due to the standard of the Premier League increasing, this has resulted in it being harder for weaker teams to get points (ignoring the elephant in the room called Sheffield Utd, obviously). This in turn has meant we've only got a lowly 18 points so far and will probably end up with our worse points tally ever. It's got nothing to do with us being a bit too sh1t.

If this is indeed the case, then the points tally needed to avoid relegation would have changed quite a lot in recent years, becoming lower, as weaker teams would be getting less and less points.

Now let's have a look at some lovely jubbly facts. The points tally needed to avoid relegation for the last ten season are as follows (the most recent season being first): 35, 34, 35, 38, 36, 34, 37, 37, 40, 31.

Not a great deal of change - the highest and lowest points tally's needed were 10 and 9 years ago respectively and the last 8 seasons have only had a variation of 4 points maximum (34-38). With this being the case, I can't really see how you come to your conclusion regarding our points total.

Feel free to come back with the differing evidence that you used to base your earlier statement on.

OTBC

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3 hours ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Well, I've only got two brain cells so I'll see if I follow your reasoning.

You appear to be suggesting that due to the standard of the Premier League increasing, this has resulted in it being harder for weaker teams to get points (ignoring the elephant in the room called Sheffield Utd, obviously). This in turn has meant we've only got a lowly 18 points so far and will probably end up with our worse points tally ever. It's got nothing to do with us being a bit too sh1t.

If this is indeed the case, then the points tally needed to avoid relegation would have changed quite a lot in recent years, becoming lower, as weaker teams would be getting less and less points.

Now let's have a look at some lovely jubbly facts. The points tally needed to avoid relegation for the last ten season are as follows (the most recent season being first): 35, 34, 35, 38, 36, 34, 37, 37, 40, 31.

Not a great deal of change - the highest and lowest points tally's needed were 10 and 9 years ago respectively and the last 8 seasons have only had a variation of 4 points maximum (34-38). With this being the case, I can't really see how you come to your conclusion regarding our points total.

Feel free to come back with the differing evidence that you used to base your earlier statement on.

OTBC

Er.................... do you actually watch the games? The standard is higher now than it's ever been. A few years back we were able to finish comfortably in 12th position with Marc Tierney in our team for god's sake. Just imagine for a second Marc Tierney trying to mark Adama Traore.

The Premier League is the richest league in the world (fact) and that is translating into higher and higher standards. That's the main reason why all the four finalists in the European competitions last season were English (that's never happened before). Four English teams in the last 16 of the Champions League this season and two more into the last 16 of the Europa League tonight. 

It stands to reason therefore that the jump in class between the Championship and the Premier League is increasing. Two out of the three promoted teams were relegated straight back down again last season and it's looking quite likely that the same will happen this season. (As for Sheffield Utd - good luck to them - but the last newly promoted team to finish 5th were promptly relegated the following season - you may have heard of them - they play in blue and white). 

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Strikes me that the bizarre optimism around a team heading for worst ever finish in the top division, with wild claims of multimillion pound offers for defenders who ship goals, is that many fans mistake pretty football for a good team. We do have some promising future players and good team spirit but such things bring zero points. And at the moment we are a very poor team at this level in a season where the Premiership isn't as tough as others. 

I like this team and the manager. But look at the facts on paper and they are getting a very easy ride for a very poor showing. Probably because most fans know, deep down, that this side is made up of league 1 and championship fodder- with the odd top champ player thrown in and no proven premiership players. A couple who might get there one day but none right now. And it shows. 

It is the board where the buck stops. They didn't even attempt to stay up and cannot compete at this level. And whilst Webber is very decent- and will doubtless thrive in a top six club - trying to play this style at this level with sub par players is suicidal. You just can't outscore the opposition. My own belief is that the board have outstayed their welcome and belong firmly in the 80/90s era. They need to move on so the club can progress. I understand the argument that says better the devil you know. 

Either way we go again next year- but please stop talking as if we will walk it. This team did well when full of confidence post Millwall last year-  but we are more likely to return to the rocky days of the season before we were promoted. When we often looked challenged at champ level- this side minus confidence is often not up for the fight. 

Edited by Dean Coneys boots

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4 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

 And at the moment we are a very poor team at this level in a season where the Premiership isn't as tough as others. 

 

I completely disagree with this assessment. In my opinion the quality of the also rans in this league is higher than it has ever been. This is an unusual season where even the weak are fairly strong and only one of the big six is head and shoulders above the rest.

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27 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I completely disagree with this assessment. In my opinion the quality of the also rans in this league is higher than it has ever been. This is an unusual season where even the weak are fairly strong and only one of the big six is head and shoulders above the rest.

If that’s your opinion then fine but In my opinion the league has been of a largely poor quality but incredibly physical. I’ve seen nothing in the teams this season that we haven’t seen here before. We as a club have just struggled to adapt more this time, be it through injuries or ability. The PL has always been strong, and has always had clubs throwing millions of pounds at players. 
And statements like Thirsty Lizards that this is the highest standard the top league has ever been are utter nonsense. It’s a long way off the highest standard that this league has ever been. 
There appears to be a lot of people basing judgement that we are playing pretty football but are bottom and then passing that judgement into that the league is of such a high quality. Simply not the case, our football is easy on the eye but ineffective and easily turned over when we lose possession. That doesn’t mean the teams we’re facing are increased in ability from our previous outings here. Just means we’ve failed to adapt 

Edited by JF

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I’m with JF. The issue is physicality not talent. Take our game away at Palace as an example - in terms of skill we outshone them...but it looked like men against boys- especially in the midfield. 
 

the reason we get plaudits is that we have technical skill and foolishly adopt open attractive tactics requiring a much higher standard of player. But we get no points because we get bullied off the ball. 
 

this also tells you why sheff Utd - who had the big units to shut up shop- have added a little bit of talent and done well. 

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23 minutes ago, JF said:

Impossible to base that on fact and it can only used as an opinion, If that’s yours then fine but In my opinion the league has been of a largely poor quality but incredibly physical. I’ve seen nothing in the teams this season that we haven’t seen here before. We as a club have just struggled to adapt more this time, be it through injuries or ability. The PL has always been strong, and has always had clubs throwing millions of pounds at players. 

I think it's the standard of the poor teams that has improved & that makes this season very difficult for us. It's not only incredibly physical but incredibly skilful, in its general standard. Some teams have put in rubbish performances occasionally, but they're all capable of stringing a run of results together - look at teams like Southampton, Burnley, Brighton, Watford (God knows how Newcastle have managed to get where they are though).

The reason for this is simply the money behind it & the resultant utter desperation of teams to stay in the PL. The billionaire backers behind virtually all the clubs will pay any money to get the best players in the world & sack managers who don't have instant success.  It's the highest stakes poker game in the world.

If we do make it, it truly will be a miracle!

 

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Liverpool and Man City are up there with the best PL teams of all time. 

In previous seasons, I would probably say that the rest of the top 6 were stronger than they are now. Whilst teams might fancy their chances vs United and Spurs etc this season, teams would near enough expect to lose 12 games of the season back then. 

The lower half of the table seems to be its own mini-relegation league in recent times - with Burnley, Everton and Southampton recently in and around the drop zone. I'm pretty sure that wasn't always the case, with just 5 or 6 teams cut off from the rest. 

All in all, I would say it is harder because PL teams have the money to buy a 20 million pound player in January - or hire a world class manager (Benitez or Ancellotti, for example) when they're in a bit of trouble. 

 

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