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Hardhouse44

Minimum Expectation

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36 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

I think this view is what plays in the back of my mind all the time.

What if we don't have a successful return to the premiership. We start to lose the finances we are so happy to have stock piled in the bank and momentum is once again lost. 

I think thats where in really coming from with this are the boards really attempting to keep this momentum and if so surely next season should be an all out effort to return to the premiership or we risk yet agsin losing our way and before you know it its all change, Farke gone and no more 30 goal a season pukki ect!

1. Unless we sell players we don't have money stockpiled in the bank - we finished last season quite heavily in debt, partly due to profligate expenditure "to stay up" last time and partly due to promotion bonuses + contingent payments arising from promotion.

2. As I stated above our expectation should be of a top 26 finish, but the idea of an "all-out" effort to return puts our long term future at risk in the same way as an all-out attempt to remain in the division. Decisions should be made on a long-term basis rather than gambling our present for the future - in doing so we are able to maximise our advantages and increase our chances of longer term membership of the PL.

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15 minutes ago, Badger said:

1. Unless we sell players we don't have money stockpiled in the bank - we finished last season quite heavily in debt, partly due to profligate expenditure "to stay up" last time and partly due to promotion bonuses + contingent payments arising from promotion.

2. As I stated above our expectation should be of a top 26 finish, but the idea of an "all-out" effort to return puts our long term future at risk in the same way as an all-out attempt to remain in the division. Decisions should be made on a long-term basis rather than gambling our present for the future - in doing so we are able to maximise our advantages and increase our chances of longer term membership of the PL.

Exactly this 👍🏼

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30 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I think over 20000 season ticket renewals has answered the question as to what the fans think ?

How? I renew as it's my club not because I 100% agree with the owners

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Arbitary expectations are usually counterproductive. The only expectation the board should have imo - and us for that matter - is that the manager and players are working together and giving their all for the cause. If that appears to waver, then questions should be asked and if it isn't working and the players down tools for any reason, then something has to change - either those players are shipped out or the manager is replaced.   

I can't think Daniel is likely to lose his players as a whole, he is just too respected for that - and we will always play good football under his stewardship, even if we aren't always where we would like to be.  He may 'lose' the odd player for whatever reason, but that happens at any club. 

We are set fair with an excellent and appreciated head coach - and long may that continue - and arbitary "you must be in the top 26 or else" conditions would be just pointless - and anyway, the top 26 idea is just an aim, not some rigid line in the sand.   

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12 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Arbitary expectations are usually counterproductive. The only expectation the board should have imo - and us for that matter - is that the manager and players are working together and giving their all for the cause. If that appears to waver, then questions should be asked and if it isn't working and the players down tools for any reason, then something has to change - either those players are shipped out or the manager is replaced.   

I can't think Daniel is likely to lose his players as a whole, he is just too respected for that - and we will always play good football under his stewardship, even if we aren't always where we would like to be.  He may 'lose' the odd player for whatever reason, but that happens at any club. 

We are set fair with an excellent and appreciated head coach - and long may that continue - and arbitary "you must be in the top 26 or else" conditions would be just pointless - and anyway, the top 26 idea is just an aim, not some rigid line in the sand.   

I swear you don't live in the real world.

All jobs come with expectations beyond just 'trying hard.' If I miss targets consistently at my work I'll get the sack even if I've tried really really hard.

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6 minutes ago, king canary said:

I swear you don't live in the real world.

All jobs come with expectations beyond just 'trying hard.' If I miss targets consistently at my work I'll get the sack even if I've tried really really hard.

I live in a perfectly real world thank you and if you read my post properly it's not just about "trying hard" - its about a manager having players working together and focussed on the cause.  If that is working well, results will come, whether we are 6th, 26th or even 36th.  My point is about putting out abitary requirements - which are counter productive, especially in a sport like professional football.

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I'd love for us to be a top 10 team in the Premier League playing the style of football we've seen under Farke. I'm not sure if that's attainable for a club our size with our budget but I'd love to see it.

But more generally I'd like to see us continue with what we've been doing. Playing this great brand of football, integrating players from our youth academy and seeing them adapt and improve and become key parts of our team. That in itself is a big challenge but if we can continue the excellent foundations put in place by Webber & Farke i'll be more than happy.

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4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I live in a perfectly real world thank you and if you read my post properly it's not just about "trying hard" - its about a manager having players working together and focussed on the cause.  If that is working well, results will come, whether we are 6th, 26th or even 36th.  My point is about putting out abitary requirements - which are counter productive, especially in a sport like professional football.

But if we're 36th then that suggests results aren't coming.

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My minimum expectation is that the bod learn from their woeful under funding this season. 

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My point is about putting out abitary requirements - which are counter productive, especially in a sport like professional football.

But I expect us to be one of the three favourites for promotion next season should we go down. And I imagine most supporters will be expecting, and therefore demanding, promotion once again. We cannot automatically content ourselves with mid table as satisfactory.  We will have everything in place to expect it. Money, support, players and experience.

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On 26/02/2020 at 13:56, Alex Moss said:

I’ve got to say, I think some of you have read into the ‘Top 26’ comment waaaaaaay too literally.

Clearly they are saying, should we be relegated from the Premier League in any given season, then it is to be EXPECTED that the bare minimum requirement going forward is to finish in the Playoffs. This is the worst case scenario for our club going forward, and anything less is not acceptable.

Clearly those with a glass more than a tad half empty have taken this that we will be very happy and satisfied with finishing 6th in the Championship every single season for the rest of eternity. I can’t believe I’m even explaining this 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

 

I can't believe that you think it was not meant literally given the lack of desire to stay in the PL this season.  There is no other way to take it!!!

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19 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Regarding the business model, it’s not ‘having a really poor year there to move forwards’ at all.

We’ve boosted the value of our assets i.e young players, bagged promotion money, Sky and BT TV rights, we will have parachute payments...

What have our outlays been?

Now, say we spent a lot of money on all these lovely players that were going to keep us in the Premier League like Villa. All well and good if they stay up, they might just be in profit, but if they don’t...

Trust me, they won’t be having as good a year from a business point of view as us. Next year could put them in some real trouble should they be relegated this season. We, on the other hand, will be fine. That’s a smart business model.

As another aside, we stand to make some good money this summer with some of the youngsters moving on whether we like it or not. And I won’t be surprised if collectively we see over £100mil+ come back to us in transfer fees. We just simply won’t be spending all of that back out in transfer fees on ‘young and ambitious replacements’, not even remotely close. It would kind of completely defeat the object of our business model. 

What do you envisage might happen to all the money then?

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On 26/02/2020 at 13:35, Hardhouse44 said:I assume that Farke has achieved what was the boards Expectation of him this season because he is still with us and under no pressure. 

I aslo assume that given all the guff about being a top 26 club the boards minimum expectation next season is to finish at worst 6th. Regardsless of whether we go on to get promoted through the play offs or not!

I'm interested to know from fellow supporters:

a) Is that a level of expectation enough from the board, do you agree with 6th place minimum (with or without promotion)

Or

b) Is your minimum expectation higher or maybe even lower.

I would be really interested in hearing everyone's thought.

 

Well by your terminology it appears you’re not happy with Farke and expect him to be under more pressure?

I also assume you’re not happy with our board or set up, do you think they should be under more pressure from the fans?

For me I’ve said before would love to see a change and new direction from the top. But that’s just not going to happen so I’ve come to terms with the limited funds and spending of our club. Expectations should match the clubs limitations, as some on here say promotion last season was a massive achievement, would you not agree that not many people thought we’d win the championship last season? So would you say that was success?

Given our debt which will be paid back, we’re definitely better off than we have been for a while, so I fully expect any sales to be re-invested into the squad or stadium, with parachute payments there’s not much point making huge sums of money and paying massive tax hits the following season. We’ve three years of money to get us back up.

So yes I’m happy enough my expectations we’re we’d get relegated, but I expect a very good summer in the transfer front. If we sell and don’t re-invest into the squad then I won’t be very happy, so I’ll judge the board by the summer.
 

As for Farke he’s a very good manager we are lucky to have him, better quality players will see us develop under him.

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19 minutes ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

I can't believe that you think it was not meant literally given the lack of desire to stay in the PL this season.  There is no other way to take it!!!

🤦🏻‍♂️

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Does anyone know what our slice of Premier league TV income, placement monies and 1st year parachute payments amount to approximately?

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4 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

🤦🏻‍♂️

Whatever you think, we simply did not give it never mind a good go, but even a half decent go at staying up.  I am not suggesting we should have gone for a boom or bust strategy, however we did the polar opposite.  We over-planned for relegation, which ultimately made relegation inevitable. 

It's alright having these long-term plans on paper, but if we fail to come back up they will prove to be completely pointless.  We are not going to have such saleable assets every year and the longer we remain outside the PL, the more the money will dwindle and this over-cautious self-funding model will suffocate us.

Only time will tell, but we could very well see that after the next 2 seasons that this regime has not been as successful as the much criticsed by Webber, previous regimes.

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1 hour ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

What do you envisage might happen to all the money then?

Is this a serious question?

Firstly, are we not allowed to build up the health of Norwich City Football Club so that we hopefully never ever come remotely anywhere close to administration again? It’s not all about you and your impatience, Norfolkbroadslim - I’m sure there’s many supporters other than just myself that hope that there’ll be a strong successful club in Norfolk for their future generations.

And did we not recently purchase the land on Carrow Rd for some sort of laugh? Or perhaps once everyone in the boardroom stopped giggling they thought that maybe, and it’s going to cost some serious money btw, that before long they may just look to rebuild the City Stand. 

Have you seen what Stuart Webber has done with our training centre? And what he’s doing for the infrastructure of the club all round? He wants to turn it into a world class facility, this amazingly won’t be done off the back of a Saturday paper round either.

Shall we spend £100mil+ on recruitment this summer for our assault on the Championship? Or shall we spend a percentage of that money on transfers as WE ALL expect, but save a good wedge to help build an even bigger transfer kitty upon our hopeful return to the Premier League? Yes let’s sell £100mil worth of talent etc this summer and **** every single penny back into player recruitment, the whole lot, make a real statement.

We just AREN’T going to do that, NO club in the country runs like that.

If you think otherwise there’s not a lot else I can say to you I’m afraid, but I’ve given as concise an answer as I can 👍🏼

Edited by Alex Moss
Wrong name 🤦🏻‍♂️

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17 minutes ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

Whatever you think, we simply did not give it never mind a good go, but even a half decent go at staying up.  I am not suggesting we should have gone for a boom or bust strategy, however we did the polar opposite.  We over-planned for relegation, which ultimately made relegation inevitable. 

It's alright having these long-term plans on paper, but if we fail to come back up they will prove to be completely pointless.  We are not going to have such saleable assets every year and the longer we remain outside the PL, the more the money will dwindle and this over-cautious self-funding model will suffocate us.

Only time will tell, but we could very well see that after the next 2 seasons that this regime has not been as successful as the much criticsed by Webber, previous regimes.

For the record, I have never said I didn’t think we could do more to give us a better chance this season. We can always do more. But by the same token, I wouldn’t bullshoite you by pretending I wasn’t satisfied with what we’d done in last summers transfer window. Because I was, and I was optimistic Drmic, Amadou and Fahrmann etc were going to help push us on, all had decent top flight pedigree (and I still think we’ve not seen anywhere near the best of Drmic yet). On paper, there looked to be some very decent value signings made with a ‘try before you buy’ logic, and I didn’t see anything wrong with that, infact I thought it was quite shrewd and smart. Same player, no big outlay. So I’m not going to be hypocritical and moan about the business Webber et al did, because I was pretty happy when that window closed and so I’m not in a position to criticise it.

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It strikes me that many fans minimum expectation is that we match the best we ever did. That's fine if that's how you feel. But to take a job under such expectations? You'd be 95% certain to be sacked.

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54 minutes ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

this over-cautious self-funding model will suffocate us

It is quite the opposite - "the cautious self-funding model" liberates us rather than suffocates us. It is those that have over-spent and piled up debt that are suffocated. 

Borrowing money means that the first thing you have to do each season is work out how you can pay back your creditors!

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We just have to accept we always have been, are and always will be well, very Norwich City.

My first memories of NCFC are from the 92/93 season and the following UEFA cup run, but I wasn't old enough to appreciate it.

Since then what achievements have I got to tell my theoretical son about?

Beating Middlesbrough at Wembley? A couple of Promotions and a couple of whimpers back into the Premier League. Finishing tenth in the Premier League.

We've had no cup runs, no special mangers, don't get me wrong I love Hucks and Holt but they're hardly players my son will be wow'd by.

For a club of this size, that have been in the Premier League for the amount have time we have, we have massively under achieved.

From the last 20 years;

Are we any better off now than Leeds United? So we might have been in the Premier League a couple more seasons but realistically we have nothing more to show for the last 20 years than they have and just two years prior to that they were in a Champions League semi-final.

Portsmouth have had some iconic players and won an FA Cup - imagine telling your son that, I was there when we won the FA Cup.

Barnsley had an incredible cup run, beating Liverpool and Chelsea.

Leicester have won the Premier League

Burnley, Hull, Swansea, Wigan, Southampton, Millwall, Stoke, Fulham, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Bolton, Middlesbrough have all competed in Europe since we were.

RvW is the most excited I've ever been about a NCFC signing.

I'm fortunate enough to have done many things in life, however I suspect the No.1 item on top of my bucket list I'll never get to do and that's to travel away to watch Norwich in Europe with my Dad.

Yes next year we will be could be cash rich, will we invest it Fulham/Villa style into player to get back in the Premier League, No.

Should we bounce straight back into Premier League, will we invest heavily to compete, No.

Call me selfish, but Norwich were here along time before me and will be a long time after me but whilst I'm here I'd love to be truly genuinely blown away by us, just once.

We just have to accept our limitations, Yes there'll be some relative highs and lows but most of the time time we'll be well, Norwich City.

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Wow. Just wow.  No wonder you don't like or understand my outlook on our club. It looks as if the club will never be good enough for you.

Edited by lake district canary
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2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Wow. Just wow.  No wonder you don't like or understand my outlook on our club. It looks as if will never be good enough for you.

Let's not beat around the bush, you're a hypocritical, attention seeking, troll.

I have no interest in engaging with you.

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14 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

I'm fortunate enough to have done many things in life, however I suspect the No.1 item on top of my bucket list I'll never get to do and that's to travel away to watch Norwich in Europe with my Dad.

This is why I hope we put in a great shift against Tottenham next week, you never know, although a slim chance, your dream might just come true with the rub of the green in the draws, just by getting to the final could quite remarkably see us qualify for Europe next season.

Just imagine that, back down in the Championship, playing just the Saturday Tuesday Thursday Saturday most weeks 😂

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1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

This is why I hope we put in a great shift against Tottenham next week, you never know, although a slim chance, your dream might just come true with the rub of the green in the draws, just by getting to the final could quite remarkably see us qualify for Europe next season.

Just imagine that, back down in the Championship, playing just the Saturday Tuesday Thursday Saturday most weeks 😂

Massively unfortunate against them twice;

Fingers crossed.

Saturday, Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday - Be some week that.

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3 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Massively unfortunate against them twice;

Fingers crossed.

Saturday, Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday - Be some week that.

Yep, I think it’s fair to say that signing 12 defenders in the summer window would then be totally justified, but knowing our luck we’d still get 13 of them injured haha

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6 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Let's not beat around the bush, you're a hypocritical, attention seeking, troll.

I have no interest in engaging with you.

That's up to you, but on football - which is what I answered about - and leaving aside the insults - we are at opposite ends of the scale. Have a nice day.

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Everyone's expectation is going to be different, mine in the current landscape:

To finish in the play offs at Championship level and to not be humiliated (less than 30 points come the end of the season) at this level

To take the cup competitions as seriously as the league, and have genuine ambition and determination to win a trophy

To have a clear, consistent, playing style that gives us the best opportunity to succeed, anything besides long ball like you'd get with Warnock/McCarthy and ultra defensive positional play (example: Hughton/Bruce) would be acceptable to me

If the plan isn't to spend big on first team players we must have top tier or the best we can possibly afford talent in key positions like coaching/technical staff, sporting director/support staff, scouting etc No jobs for the boys, we need to be ruthlessly competent in all areas behind the scenes

For the team to never down tools on the pitch like we saw often in the mid 2010's (I blame the poor atmosphere and apathy before 2018 on the crowd being repeatedly subjected to this.)

They're the main things for me. Unlike most I'm actually not too fused about having x amount of youngsters in the team or having to play attacking football.Apart from the fact we might not make 30 points this year I'm happy the club is meeting all my expectations, I'm actually okay with the low points total this year given our horrendous run of defensive injuries that couldn't have been foreseen. 

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