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Jim Smith

What i'm really stuggling with is the lack of real desire to stay up

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And by this I don't mean that the players are not trying or that they've downed tools. But you look at teams traditionally in relegation battles (or perhaps more specifically who get out of relegation battles) and the one thing you expect to see in their performances is a bit of rabid desperation to win vital points and to preserve their premier league status.

We on the other hand just seem to be meekly sliding out of the division with a bit of a whimper. Even in the individual games when we go behind there is not real upping of the tempo or getting in the opposition's face. There is no real pushing them back with sheer desire to win. I just don't think that we have the players/style of play to get in teams faces, rough them up a bit and give them a real fight. I also think it flows from the top. Ultimately, when the whole club has basically accepted relegation as the most likely outcome from the start of the season and when the sporting director and coaching staff are under zero pressure to stay up perhaps that is what you get. It enables us to continue playing good football in long spells and the players are perhaps a little more relaxed than you might expect from a team in our situation but I just think that there is an "edge" missing from our game that is often the successful factor in a relegation struggle. 

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I have seen sheer desire to fight hard and give it their all by a number of players. Krul, Cantwell, Zimmerman and Pukki are generally working their socks off. Krul always barking at our defence and organising them. Tettey is always vocal after they’ve had a poor game too.

As a collective though maybe you have a point. 

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15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

And by this I don't mean that the players are not trying or that they've downed tools. But you look at teams traditionally in relegation battles (or perhaps more specifically who get out of relegation battles) and the one thing you expect to see in their performances is a bit of rabid desperation to win vital points and to preserve their premier league status.

We on the other hand just seem to be meekly sliding out of the division with a bit of a whimper. Even in the individual games when we go behind there is not real upping of the tempo or getting in the opposition's face. There is no real pushing them back with sheer desire to win. I just don't think that we have the players/style of play to get in teams faces, rough them up a bit and give them a real fight. I also think it flows from the top. Ultimately, when the whole club has basically accepted relegation as the most likely outcome from the start of the season and when the sporting director and coaching staff are under zero pressure to stay up perhaps that is what you get. It enables us to continue playing good football in long spells and the players are perhaps a little more relaxed than you might expect from a team in our situation but I just think that there is an "edge" missing from our game that is often the successful factor in a relegation struggle. 

We didn't whimper against Liverpool.

I think your basing your view on the last game, which was not typical. Probably in the worst four this season in terms of attitude.

I do think you're right though, in a way. We're still trying to get results in a purely footballing way. I was hoping we might have realised there was nothing to lose & just piled in, to hell with defence (we can't defend) & relied on luck & heroic goalkeeping to keep the goals against down. It's actually what Lambert did very successfully - loads of times I remember seeing the opposition clean through, one on one with the goalie, only to be thwarted at the last moment or mess it up. It's amazing how often even exceptional strikers fail to score in those situations.

But I think we're past that stage now.

 

 

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Not buying that Smithy. What happens when you keep getting punished is that you get mentally a bit deflated and it gets harder to maintain the fight.  Losing matches that we are so close to getting something and doing that over and over is demoralising and the only way to combat it is start each match with determination and fresh spirit.   They did that against Wolves, bossing the match to start with, but because there was no success in that time, as soon as there was a setback, the bubble burst a little and the fight disappeared a bit.

That will be addressed of course and the next time we come out we will be full of fight again - and what needs to happen is that we score first to give us a bit of belief, give the crowd some encouragement and that will help us over the line. It will happen sooner or later....obviously the sooner it does, the better!

Edited by lake district canary
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I think the players realistically know they’re down. That doesn’t mean they’re not trying, just that their motivation is rock bottom. This season we’ve had a combination of lots of games being just short (which is demoralising) and a few where we’ve been a long way short (which is also demoralising). 
 

This is why it might not be the end of the world if we do sell one or two for big money and bring in replacements. A lot about us getting promoted was team spirit and togetherness. When that has been damaged in a relegation season, it’s not easy to just rebuild instantly, without a few fresh faces

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I think something as gone fundementally wrong behind the scenes.

Using hindsight from that Friday night we started the season at Liverpool and;

Evidenced by the fact that despite our poor form/results Farke can't/won't turn to Trybull/Leitner/Stepi/Hernandez/Vrancic.

Evidenced by the fact that Krul (who hasnt done badly) is still our No.1 despite Farhmann being brought in to be No.1

Evidenced by our most talented player, struggling to get minutes.

Evidenced by the fact that Byram is somehow ahead of Lewis at LB.

Evidenced by the Roberts and Amadou's loan, cut short.

Evidenced by the fact a 42 year old Alex Tettey is the first name on the team sheet and Kenny McClean as a free pass to start everygame.

Evidenced by the fact a unknown average German signed in Jan, somhow has been first choice for everygame since, likewide Duda appears to be undropable, despite anything other than a good 45 minutes.

 

Wolves was just all too predictable, some little flashes of powederpuff and quickly dominated by a team in second gear, culminating in 3 soft goals.

What I have found particulary frustrating is the 'possesion is key' message, its not. Wolves were ruthless yesterday breaking quick and turning attack to defence in in 2/3 very good passes, whilst we even at 1-0/2-0/3-0 down, we didn't increase our urgency and were happy to retain possesion, trying to move up the pitch nice and slowly.

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We were poor collectively yesterday but your argument is pretty weak because in lots of games it's been the complete opposite. I think our work-rate in most games have been very good.

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14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We were poor collectively yesterday but your argument is pretty weak because in lots of games it's been the complete opposite. I think our work-rate in most games have been very good.

It’s not about work rate per se. I’ve already said I think they are trying. It’s about that extra. It’s about Farke not taking risks because he knows his job is safe regardless. It’s possibly about certain players knowing they will get a move in the summer regardless or others perhaps knowing bring back in the champ is better for their first team prospects. It’s about that absolute 100% desire to win at all costs and I’m sorry but I just don’t see it out there. Nobody is not trying but there is something missing. 

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

It’s not about work rate per se. I’ve already said I think they are trying. It’s about that extra. It’s about Farke not taking risks because he knows his job is safe regardless. It’s possibly about certain players knowing they will get a move in the summer regardless or others perhaps knowing bring back in the champ is better for their first team prospects. It’s about that absolute 100% desire to win at all costs and I’m sorry but I just don’t see it out there. Nobody is not trying but there is something missing. 

I would add it’s probably aided and abetted by the fans shrugging their shoulders at an impending relegation as well. 

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I would add it’s probably aided and abetted by the fans shrugging their shoulders at an impending relegation as well. 

Really? Are you attending Carrow Rd then? Or any of the away games? 

 

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10 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Really? Are you attending Carrow Rd then? Or any of the away games? 

 

Yes. I went yesterday. The away end was hugely deflated. The atmosphere was rubbish (although that away end at Molineux is awful for atmosphere anyway and the sun was in everyone's eyes plus obviously we played badly after they scored) but the biggest cheer or applause that the team got was basically the players being clapped off at the end of the game after producing a really cr*p performance.

Everyone just seems to accept we are getting relegated, many fans openly state they are looking forward to being back in the championship. There is no pressure on anyone to perform. The cult has won, they have completely stripped any notion of ambition from a large proportion of our fan base. We must "be careful what we wish for" or just accept this is all part of Webber's masterplan (first person ever possibly to have a plan to establish a club in the premier league by getting relegated out of it so we can try to get back).  Delia must be delighted. She gets her nice cuddly championship club back where anyone who dares criticise is snubbed as a non believer, she and her entourage get to party in a boardroom somewhere every weekend and the club gets to continually pat itself of the back for doing things "the right way."

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Jim, many of the criticisms this season have been, on the face of it, fair and accurate. From a distance however it does all seem a bit short-sighted and almost verging on ungrateful. Last season was just astonishing and to be honest I and I think many others decided that the people who brought about a near miracle deserved, essentially, a free hit this season. The people who engineered last season are still there and I see no reason not to be very confident that they can do it again- this time with a bigger and better plan to become established.

I'm not sure what you regard as a better alternative? The very worst thing that can happen now is rancour and bitterness which could see Webber, Farke and important players leave. IF we fail miserably next season to bounce back then the knee-jerkers will have good grounds for complaint. Until then, frankly, they sound like spoilt brats.

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I can stomach this year and relegation, given the events of last year. I don’t agree with the “top 26” aim as I think it breeds complacency within the club and doesn’t send the right message to players or fans about our target of staying up, but I can live with it given the realities of the finances etc.

Where I will draw the line is next season if we are not pushing for an immediate return, because at that point the “plan” starts to look very unconvincing and questions will rightfully be asked as to whether simply not trying this season (in terms of buying experienced players to help keep us up) was the right move. Let there be no questions, if we want to succeed long term as a club (whoever the owners are or whatever model we choose to pursue) we have to be a Premier League team. That’s the reality of football now.

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16 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Jim, many of the criticisms this season have been, on the face of it, fair and accurate. From a distance however it does all seem a bit short-sighted and almost verging on ungrateful. Last season was just astonishing and to be honest I and I think many others decided that the people who brought about a near miracle deserved, essentially, a free hit this season. The people who engineered last season are still there and I see no reason not to be very confident that they can do it again- this time with a bigger and better plan to become established.

I'm not sure what you regard as a better alternative? The very worst thing that can happen now is rancour and bitterness which could see Webber, Farke and important players leave. IF we fail miserably next season to bounce back then the knee-jerkers will have good grounds for complaint. Until then, frankly, they sound like spoilt brats.

In my view it would have been better to actually actively try to stay in this league rather than take the risk of attempting to come back bigger and better. I'm really not sure how we achieve that and I worry that the process of going down (and what is to come in the remainder of this season) will take away some of the desire and enthusiasm/drive to do it all again next season. I don't buy this top 26 business. I think it give a get out or an excuse for failure. I think we could have done more this season without taking unacceptable risks.

That said, I don't want Webber or Farke to leave. I think both have had disappointing seasons to be honest but I do agree that they give us the best chance of getting back up again (although i'd like to see a defence coach added to the team). Its not their fault that our owners have chosen to impose the limitations they have on the club and I do accept that we are performing at somewhere close to (although not quite at) our ceiling under the current model.

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4 hours ago, CDMullins said:

I think something as gone fundementally wrong behind the scenes.

...

To me the most worrying aspect is the underwhelming reaction to setbacks. We collapse. The problem isn't just material, or strategic. It is psychological. The symptoms are manifesting themselves in Farke's comments, Buendia's behaviour,  worrying lack of grit, seeming lack of direction and leadership. Especially when Zimmermann isn't around. If it's psychological, and if its' about clash of personalities or problems in interpersonal relationships, the responsibility belongs to Daniel Farke and ultimately David Webber.

If you are the leader of a team, and find the team is failing repeatedly, the problem is not the team. The problem is you. There is no delegating responsibility. Webber took responsibility for failing Farke with the signings. I have yet to see Daniel Farke honestly owning up to not giving the team what it needs to be psychologically healthy and resilient to setbacks. The signal I get from Farke is avoidance. We need more leadership from him.

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55 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The cult has won, they have completely stripped any notion of ambition from a large proportion of our fan base. We must "be careful what we wish for" or just accept this is all part of Webber's masterplan (first person ever possibly to have a plan to establish a club in the premier league by getting relegated out of it so we can try to get back).  Delia must be delighted. She gets her nice cuddly championship club back where anyone who dares criticise is snubbed as a non believer, she and her entourage get to party in a boardroom somewhere every weekend and the club gets to continually pat itself of the back for doing things "the right way."

I understand you are disappointed but “the cult has won” ? Sorry I cannot accept that childish assertion. You are free to hold your opinions but others can have theirs too. OTBC. 

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3 minutes ago, Upo said:

To me the most worrying aspect is the underwhelming reaction to setbacks. We collapse. The problem isn't just material, or strategic. It is psychological. The symptoms are manifesting themselves in Farke's comments, Buendia's behaviour,  worrying lack of grit, seeming lack of direction and leadership. Especially when Zimmermann isn't around. If it's psychological, and if its' about clash of personalities or problems in interpersonal relationships, the responsibility belongs to Daniel Farke and ultimately David Webber.

If you are the leader of a team, and find the team is failing repeatedly, the problem is not the team. The problem is you. There is no delegating responsibility. Webber took responsibility for failing Farke with the signings. I have yet to see Daniel Farke honestly owning up to not giving the team what it needs to be psychologically healthy and resilient to setbacks. The signal I get from Farke is avoidance. We need more leadership from him.

👏

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Jim, I'm with you on this, but it's worse than you think.

The club isn't looking to come back bigger and better.  The primary aim is to finance the club over the medium to long term by milking the parachute payments. Go up, spend as little as possible, come down and cop a big parachute windfall, so that the financial advantage gained over most other Championship clubs maximises our chances of going up again, spending as little as possible . . .  This is what they have the cheek to call a "self-financing model" and it's what we have to look forward to for the foreseeable future.

Some fans buy into it.  They blame a season of misery in the top flight on the evils of the Premier League rather than the club's own lack of commitment to staying up.  Others know what's going on, and so no doubt do the players.  Either way, it's a recipe for demotivation and disillusion. 

 

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^ another Magic Money Tree (or maybe Magic Marcus) Monkey. Keep warming that bench, people, with this level of response you won’t threaten the starting eleven any time soon

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1 hour ago, Upo said:

To me the most worrying aspect is the underwhelming reaction to setbacks. We collapse. The problem isn't just material, or strategic. It is psychological. The symptoms are manifesting themselves in Farke's comments, Buendia's behaviour,  worrying lack of grit, seeming lack of direction and leadership. Especially when Zimmermann isn't around. If it's psychological, and if its' about clash of personalities or problems in interpersonal relationships, the responsibility belongs to Daniel Farke and ultimately David Webber.

If you are the leader of a team, and find the team is failing repeatedly, the problem is not the team. The problem is you. There is no delegating responsibility. Webber took responsibility for failing Farke with the signings. I have yet to see Daniel Farke honestly owning up to not giving the team what it needs to be psychologically healthy and resilient to setbacks. The signal I get from Farke is avoidance. We need more leadership from him.

I agree with a lot of that. It was noticeable last season, and one of our biggest strengths, that conceding a goal didn’t affect us mentally. If anything, it actually woke us up.

This season has seen a complete lack of belief and urgency after going behind in a lot of games; although this is understandable if we’ve lost most of our games.

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1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

Jim, I'm with you on this, but it's worse than you think.

The club isn't looking to come back bigger and better.  The primary aim is to finance the club over the medium to long term by milking the parachute payments. Go up, spend as little as possible, come down and cop a big parachute windfall, so that the financial advantage gained over most other Championship clubs maximises our chances of going up again, spending as little as possible . . .  This is what they have the cheek to call a "self-financing model" and it's what we have to look forward to for the foreseeable future.

Some fans buy into it.  They blame a season of misery in the top flight on the evils of the Premier League rather than the club's own lack of commitment to staying up.  Others know what's going on, and so no doubt do the players.  Either way, it's a recipe for demotivation and disillusion. 

 

Sorry but that is just a distortion of the truth.  The policy is designed so that if we go down then up again we do better the next time.  It's progressive - not a static treading water policy as you are suggesting.

All plans for success have a dynamic to them and that is what we have - a policy that takes us forwards.   Hard as it is to think we might go down, it is only part of the scheme and financially we will do well as years go by - and over a period of two or three years - especially if any of those years are in the PL - will lead to a better chance of staying up.

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2 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I can stomach this year and relegation, given the events of last year. I don’t agree with the “top 26” aim as I think it breeds complacency within the club and doesn’t send the right message to players or fans about our target of staying up, but I can live with it given the realities of the finances etc.

Where I will draw the line is next season if we are not pushing for an immediate return, because at that point the “plan” starts to look very unconvincing and questions will rightfully be asked as to whether simply not trying this season (in terms of buying experienced players to help keep us up) was the right move. Let there be no questions, if we want to succeed long term as a club (whoever the owners are or whatever model we choose to pursue) we have to be a Premier League team. That’s the reality of football now.

The top 26 aim is nonsense.  It is purely designed to keep criticism at bay and Webber in a job.

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1 minute ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

The top 26 aim is nonsense.  It is purely designed to keep criticism at bay and Webber in a job.

Of course it is. Utter Bojjocks. There’s no such thing as top 26. It’s spin. That’s all that ever comes out of our club spin spin spin.

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14 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Of course it is. Utter Bojjocks. There’s no such thing as top 26. It’s spin. That’s all that ever comes out of our club spin spin spin.

You really are a little bundle of joy! Like I said if you don’t get enjoyment from the club then stay at the pub! So add to not liking the Manager, players we can now add the owners and Webber!

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1 hour ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

I agree with a lot of that. It was noticeable last season, and one of our biggest strengths, that conceding a goal didn’t affect us mentally. If anything, it actually woke us up.

This season has seen a complete lack of belief and urgency after going behind in a lot of games; although this is understandable if we’ve lost most of our games.

Undoubtedly losing many times affects the team's ability to respond. That is why it is so crucial to have team spirit and leadership.

I can't help but wonder how much of last season's "resilience" was actually about being on a persistent winning streak and that they faced players who mostly were their equal or slightly lower in quality. I think Norwich quite simply wasn't properly tested last season. The team was almost too good in some aspects and Farke's strategy and tactics utilized those strengths extremely well. You don't need a leader when things are going your way...

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9 minutes ago, Upo said:

Undoubtedly losing many times affects the team's ability to respond. That is why it is so crucial to have team spirit and leadership.

I can't help but wonder how much of last season's "resilience" was actually about being on a persistent winning streak and that they faced players who mostly were their equal or slightly lower in quality. I think Norwich quite simply wasn't properly tested last season. The team was almost too good in some aspects and Farke's strategy and tactics utilized those strengths extremely well. You don't need a leader when things are going your way...

That’s without question something that we’ve failed, as stats show we haven’t taken a single point from going a goal behind. Yet we’ve been in the game and look competitive against most teams in this division till we concede......if we go a goal ahead or keep it tight we can get points.

But as said we’ve basically gone with the squad we had and I can’t blame Farke to sticking with the same tactics as this squad has played this way for three seasons now.

Write this season off as a learning curve, building on the finances and see what the summer brings. If we do have a successful season next year we’ll be in a far better situation the next time up, with experienced premiership manager and players who are left from summer transfers.

Still lots to be positive about as none of us thought we’d be here this season.

Edited by Indy

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22 minutes ago, Indy said:

You really are a little bundle of joy! Like I said if you don’t get enjoyment from the club then stay at the pub! So add to not liking the Manager, players we can now add the owners and Webber!

Again yawn. That’s all you ever say if you don’t like it don’t go. Do you just believe everything you’re told? 

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Just now, Hardhouse44 said:

Again yawn. That’s all you ever say if you don’t like it don’t go. Do you just believe everything you’re told? 

Nope, as I’ve said my city friend, I would love to see a change in ownership, I’m not a fan of this regime but thankful for their initial input, their passion for this club, but sometimes this is misguided. I can’t change it so I accept it. I’m all for a continuous improvement process with success, so with the restrictions we have I look at it as the best way forward. I want to see us win every game, but this is Norwich City, like I posted earlier just go back to 1995 1 win in the last 20 games, Hughton second season we went down, Alex Neal we went down, ultimately we had some success under Lambert, then Hughton but even three seasons up here was expensive when we got relegated.

I just don’t think it’s possible for a club our size to stay up under a self sustaining model unless we develop a Maddison every year and sell improve the youth system, that’s very unlikely so we will no doubt yo-yo. That’s unless we do get a Sheffield United or Leeds or Leicester type benefactor in charge to pump funds into the squad.

But I can see the negatives you’re pointing out of course I agree with a lot of your points, but you must also see our restrictions and how well we’ve done under this? I don’t like it but accept it, I’d want a Aston, but can only afford a Merc......but I don’t moan I enjoy my car for what it is. 👍😉

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