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Did you really expect us to do well

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When we kicked off on Aug 9th who in their heart really expected us to survive ? We had not spent hardly any money in the summer. I like all the city supporters did not think we would struggle so much but I am not surprised , you cannot compete at this level with championship players 

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I thought we would do better than we have and maybe finish up around 15th/16th. Certainly thought we’d be well above Sheffield Utd who I had nailed on for bottom. What do I know ?

Although we’ve spent virtually nothing on reinforcements I felt that last season’s ‘ feel good ‘ momentum would carry us through.

Spending a bit more might have improved things - they couldn’t be much worse - but then look at Villa who’ve pawned all the family silver and hardly set the League alight.

 

 

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I was hopeful and thought our style of football might suit the Premier League.

I also hoped we would upgrade a very average defence. This didn't happen and from the moment Klose was sidelined and then Hanley and Zimmerman followed, I realised the odds were very much against survival. By the end of November it became obvious we wouldn't.

 

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I think we could have done better than we have done. I think we are achieving very close to or at the top end of what is achievable under the current owners with the caveat that I do think we could have done more in the summer to "give the lads a hand" and I also think that Farke has not had a great season either. That said I wouldn't want him gone and think he's the right man to take us forward.

It was a really depressing eye opener being at Wolves yesterday and seeing how that club is moving forward. 31,500 ground sold out every week. Stadium expansion plans to take the capacity to 46,000 ongoing. Training ground has been given a second multi million pound re-fit in the last few years, challenging for champions league football and the overall feel and atmosphere around the place has been transformed from the hostile, aggressive ground I went to several times a decade or so ago. Evil foreign owners eh!

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I was hopeful and thought our style of football might suit the Premier League.

I also hoped we would upgrade a very average defence. This didn't happen and from the moment Klose was sidelined and then Hanley and Zimmerman followed, I realised the odds were very much against survival. By the end of November it became obvious we wouldn't.

 

What bugs me though about the defending is that its not like teams are opening us up with outstanding play week in, week out. Most of it is basic, school boy stuff. So whilst I do think that ultimately a lot of our struggles come down to resources I think that there has been a failure to address some of these issues on the training pitch as well. A cheap defence should still be able to get the basics right.

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Last year the faults were hidden by an offense that could mostly out score opponents. That approach was never going to fly in the Premier League. 

In all of our last three promotions, failure to address the problem of central defence has proved to be our downfall. There was the Simon Charlton in for Malky McKay year, then the moving Russell Martin to centre half year and now this one.

Relegation has been mostly self inflicted.

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I thought we would get between 35 to 45 points this season and be well in the fight until at least the last 2 or 3 games. 

To be on track for only 25 is very disappointing. 

We needed to carry the momentum from last season in the first half of the season (considering the poor reinforcement of the squad) . October, November and December were our key months after a tough batch of opening fixtures. In many games we played some really great stuff in that patch, but consistently bottled getting the points over the line. Going into January, it has always been a near impossible task. 

In particular, our record in '6 pointers' against the teams around us has been woeful.  Gifting relegation rivals too many points. If we had managed to grind 2 or 3 of those defeats into draws/wins, we would be right in it. The 2 defeats to Villa are particularly sour. 

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I agree with your first paragraph Jim but I’m not so sure we’re that different to the description in your second paragraph albeit on a smaller scale.

Our current capacity is only 4000 less than Wolves and we sell out every week too. True we’re never going to be a 46,000-seater but I wouldn’t be too surprised to see our ground expanded very soon as there’s no point giving any surplus cash to the taxman. Colney has been upgraded this season.

Even Wolverhampton looks better ( just ) on a sunny day and the hostility and tension around Molineux would have eased with their team doing so well.

Their supporters are still Neanderthal though as I’m sure we’ll see soon enough when things aren’t going so swimmingly.

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It is the way we have hobbled in the main throughout the season grabbing a point here and there without any sort of run being put together and finally suffering a slow and lingering exit from the Premier without so much as a wimper that disappoints.

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Sheffield United have been brilliant and also spent around £45 million in the summer and added to that in January. By the standards of the PL that spend was not megabucks but does suggest the approximate minimum level of spend necessary to have a chance especially if your squad lacks previous PL experience. 
 

We all know our club is not going to spend anything like that kind of money so there’s no point in moaning about it. We have to hope that the club can keep the conveyor belt of young talent progressing to the first team rolling.

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6 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I agree with your first paragraph Jim but I’m not so sure we’re that different to the description in your second paragraph albeit on a smaller scale.

Our current capacity is only 4000 less than Wolves and we sell out every week too. True we’re never going to be a 46,000-seater but I wouldn’t be too surprised to see our ground expanded very soon as there’s no point giving any surplus cash to the taxman. Colney has been upgraded this season.

Even Wolverhampton looks better ( just ) on a sunny day and the hostility and tension around Molineux would have eased with their team doing so well.

Their supporters are still Neanderthal though as I’m sure we’ll see soon enough when things aren’t going so swimmingly.

Difference is smithy that we will be starting again next season whereas they will push on, possibly with a champions league place and whereas we debate whether or not we can afford to add another tier to the City Stand (after having done so already for about a decade) they will just build a new stand (no doubt paid for or sponsored by their owners) and deliver it. For me its a pretty vivid illustration as to why our model is always going to massively struggle to make us competitive at premier league level. 

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I actually thought we would be ok and survive.

The reality is though that in one of the weakest PL's for years we have massively underperformed our potential, both as individual players and as a team..

Apart from the odd game, and brief periods in other games, we have not consistantly played anywhere near what we are capable of.

Players who I thought would make it have not achieved the level of form that their abilty promised.

You can argue all day long about money spent, injuries, VAR and luck but at the end of the day it's the performances on the pitch that have let us down and put us where we are.

From what I saw yesterday the players have already chucked in the towel.

Strange really because with the other results going our way over the weekend there was a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

But not for the first time when the chips are down, apart from the first 10 minutes, we never really turned up.

We got promotion by skill, intent, fight, desire and team work but we seem to have left all that behind.

 

Edited by Making Plans
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2 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

I actually thought we would be ok and survive.

The reality is though that in one of the weakest PL's for years we have massively underperformed our potential, both as individual players and as a team..

Apart from the odd game, and brief periods in other games, we have not consistantly played anywhere near what we are capable of.

Players who I thought would make it have not achieved the level of form that their abilty promised.

You can argue all day long about money spent, injuries, VAR and luck but at the end of the day it's the performances on the pitch that have let us down and put us where we are.

From what I saw yesterday the players have already chucked in the towel.

Strange really because with the other results going our way over the weekend there was a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

But not for the first time when the chips are down, apart from the first 10 minutes, we never really turned up.

We got promotion by skill, intent, fight, desire and team work but we seem to have left all that behind.

 

I only think they chucked in the towel after they went behind. we actually started well but as usual missed the two or three chances we created and then let them score and easy goal from their first real attack.

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The injuries to central defenders killed us. It was always going to be a weakness anyway, & losing Klose, Zimbo & Hanley for long periods of time was terminal, for our confidence as much as anything.

I remember watching SheffU last season & thinking they looked physically like a rugby league team. That sheer strength (although not that alone) has stood them in good stead this year.

I think a lot of our players have the footballing skills to play for a top 6 side, but they haven't got the muscularity required to go with it.

It's a bit of a myth about the Champs. being tougher than the PL. Last season our superior football was able to overcome stronger teams. In the PL they're both stronger & more skilful - that's why they get paid so much. The players are simply the best in the world.

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The injuries certainly affected us and robbed us of our momentum from last season. However there have been good signs along the way and several matches could have gone either way, so we have been very close to what was needed.  We still are close - so a turn around is not impossible.  Did I think we would do better, yes, but we are where we are and we have to deal with that, so no point in crying over spilt milk.  Sheff Utd showed it is possible to come into this league, keep a settled side and do well. We - with a bit of luck on injuries - might have been able to do similar.  We still could do well - we have the skilfgul players to do it.  We need a bit of luck, the players to believe, the fans to believe and a bit of inspiration from somewhere - maybe one player could just be the catalyst. I think Godfrey could be that player. When he is on form and fully believing in himself, he is a bit of a one man team - against Chelsea he almose singlehandedly got us back in it with surging runs and a header against the bar at 3-2 down - and last season he was immense.   But it could be any of them - Zimbo, Duda, Vrancic (if he can get on the pitch!).  We are struggling now, but it is not over yet - we just need a spark to set us off again.

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I think those in charge firmly looked at this season as that 'free hit' as our odds of staying up couldn't be guaranteed to improve by spending what money we could (or couldn't, as in previous years). Unfortunately that mentality has permeated through the team and instead of fighting for our lives we play exactly like we're a little concerned about going down but also meh.

We did have a bad turn of luck with injuries, no doubt, but I think we've also made off-field decisions that have dictated on-field ones. Certain players I believe have gotten a lot of minutes because it improves their market value, but actually flatter to deceive; we continue to play in an open way because it emphasises the fine attacking flair of our bright young things.

I think we could have made a better go of staying up, but the way we've done it is part of the plan. Just isn't much fun for the fans.

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

What bugs me though about the defending is that its not like teams are opening us up with outstanding play week in, week out. Most of it is basic, school boy stuff. So whilst I do think that ultimately a lot of our struggles come down to resources I think that there has been a failure to address some of these issues on the training pitch as well. A cheap defence should still be able to get the basics right.

Agreed with this. And set pieces. Why did “Big Sam’s” sides always stay up? Lots and lots of drilling on the training pitch. Yes we play more open than that so perhaps wouldn’t ever be quite that solid, but I agree we could have been more solid without sacrificing our style too much, just by there being a bit more work on the training pitch.

The injuries didn’t help, but deal with it - give your defenders more cover, sit tighter, keep the midfield closer to the defence. We beat Man City in the midst of the injury crisis by being more solid. We decided winning games wasn’t as important as scoring goals, and now we’re doing neither.

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Another more general point I would make, is how many sides dominate possession in this division? Only seven sides have a higher average possession figure than we do (strangely perhaps based on recent seasons) one of those is Brighton, the other six being the ‘traditional’ big six. 

The majority of sides in the division play counter attacking football. Wolves prime example.  But even the “big boys” tend to play counter attacking. They keep a lot of possession but they’re at their most dangerous on the counter - Man Utd in particular. There’s only really Man City who try and dictate possession as we try to do. Man City are full of individuals who are worth more than our entire squad so can do it successfully. 
That to me suggests we could have been more pragmatic without giving up our identity entirely, and been more successful for it.

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4 hours ago, ron obvious said:

The injuries to central defenders killed us. It was always going to be a weakness anyway, & losing Klose, Zimbo & Hanley for long periods of time was terminal, for our confidence as much as anything.

I remember watching SheffU last season & thinking they looked physically like a rugby league team. That sheer strength (although not that alone) has stood them in good stead this year.

I think a lot of our players have the footballing skills to play for a top 6 side, but they haven't got the muscularity required to go with it.

It's a bit of a myth about the Champs. being tougher than the PL. Last season our superior football was able to overcome stronger teams. In the PL they're both stronger & more skilful - that's why they get paid so much. The players are simply the best in the world.

I think this is another way that we hide from the truth. 

Klose never good enough at Premiership level wasn't before why 3 years on did we think an aging Klose would be. As for Zimbo! and Hanley. Decent/OK Championship defenders who we have had fit now for a while and really have made **** all difference. 

We couldn't defend in the Championship only fools would expect the same guys to be able to do it in the premiership.

 

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5 hours ago, ricardo said:

Last year the faults were hidden by an offense that could mostly out score opponents. That approach was never going to fly in the Premier League. 

In all of our last three promotions, failure to address the problem of central defence has proved to be our downfall. There was the Simon Charlton in for Malky McKay year, then the moving Russell Martin to centre half year and now this one.

Relegation has been mostly self inflicted.

Completely agree , the defensive frailties were clear to be seen last season ! I lost a lot of belief when we started the season without any significant signings and then the injuries came... I remained hopeful , but if I am honest I saw relegation as the only possible outcome at the beginning of December, or even before...
Maybe this club has not the means nor the guts once it's promoted to the Premier League... In this case I would say it's just the means , because I think Webber and his team have the guts.

Down we go again it seems , well here's hoping we've got a better plan next time we are promoted . 

Edited by ROBFLECK
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Defence and it’s frailties start from midfield too, not picking up runners, not being strong enough, not being wise enough. We did need to strengthen and Amadou came in, so I can’t say they didn’t strengthen. To add to this he was valued at £9 million and Mings sold for over £20 million how much would a better defender than Klose or Zimmermann cost?

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5 hours ago, ron obvious said:

The injuries to central defenders killed us. It was always going to be a weakness anyway, & losing Klose, Zimbo & Hanley for long periods of time was terminal, for our confidence as much as anything.

I remember watching SheffU last season & thinking they looked physically like a rugby league team. That sheer strength (although not that alone) has stood them in good stead this year.

I think a lot of our players have the footballing skills to play for a top 6 side, but they haven't got the muscularity required to go with it.

It's a bit of a myth about the Champs. being tougher than the PL. Last season our superior football was able to overcome stronger teams. In the PL they're both stronger & more skilful - that's why they get paid so much. The players are simply the best in the world.

I'd say that's pretty much on point Ron. 

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6 hours ago, ricardo said:

I was hopeful and thought our style of football might suit the Premier League.

I also hoped we would upgrade a very average defence. This didn't happen and from the moment Klose was sidelined and then Hanley and Zimmerman followed, I realised the odds were very much against survival. By the end of November it became obvious we wouldn't.

 

We conceded a lot of goals in the Championship, I always thought that central defence was the one area we should have concentrated on strengthening for the Premier League campaign. I thought we would spend all of the time in the bottom six with a high probability of relegation, but like the OP I have been disappointed at just how far off we are. I suppose the question is do you get more disappointed at finishing rock bottom than you do missing out on survival on goal difference........

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Our injuries in defence at the start of the season kind of ruined our chance to utilise the momentum that promotion tends to give, where we could have gathered some point before the reality of us not quite being good enough came into play. I'm not sure if it would have been enough to keep us up had those injuries not occurred - but saying that we're still only 7 points from safety.

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6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The injuries certainly affected us and robbed us of our momentum from last season. However there have been good signs along the way and several matches could have gone either way, so we have been very close to what was needed.  We still are close - so a turn around is not impossible.  Did I think we would do better, yes, but we are where we are and we have to deal with that, so no point in crying over spilt milk.  Sheff Utd showed it is possible to come into this league, keep a settled side and do well. We - with a bit of luck on injuries - might have been able to do similar.  We still could do well - we have the skilfgul players to do it.  We need a bit of luck, the players to believe, the fans to believe and a bit of inspiration from somewhere - maybe one player could just be the catalyst. I think Godfrey could be that player. When he is on form and fully believing in himself, he is a bit of a one man team - against Chelsea he almose singlehandedly got us back in it with surging runs and a header against the bar at 3-2 down - and last season he was immense.   But it could be any of them - Zimbo, Duda, Vrancic (if he can get on the pitch!).  We are struggling now, but it is not over yet - we just need a spark to set us off again.

LDC, has it gone beyond your brain that last season we had a defence that conceded more goals than any other championship side - have injuries really robbed us of our momentum from last season! I think not, we didn’t have any defensive momentum at all, and the leakier defence in the league was not strengthened for the premiership. Shameful.

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It has not been the defence that has been the major problem since the new year - we have stopped scoring goals!  Every team is going to concede goals and we are no different, it's just the goals haver dried up. If wew had scored when on top in the first half on Sunday it might have made a bit of difference.

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11 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It has not been the defence that has been the major problem since the new year - we have stopped scoring goals!  Every team is going to concede goals and we are no different, it's just the goals haver dried up. If wew had scored when on top in the first half on Sunday it might have made a bit of difference.

Yep, but that’s part of the problem - too often we haven’t quite been able to get the balance right.

We’ve got the joint worst goals for record and second worst goals against record. 

I don’t think we can point the finger at either end of the pitch exclusively. 

Edited by Aggy

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3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It has not been the defence that has been the major problem since the new year - we have stopped scoring goals!  Every team is going to concede goals and we are no different, it's just the goals haver dried up. If wew had scored when on top in the first half on Sunday it might have made a bit of difference.

But we don't play to score goals. We had 60% possession yesterday but after the first 15 minutes we never looked like scoring a goal or creating a decent chance.

The team is picked to keep possession but we do sod all with it.

If there's a choice of passing forwards, sideways or backwards we rarely take the forward option.

We have players like Buendia & Vrancic who can do that but they either don't get picked or they're brought on in desperation when we're already losing.

Pukki is not supported and we rarely get more that 2 players in the box.

When you have to win games you have to score and we don't look like doing that at all at the moment.

Sooner or later, although it's probably too late now, Farke is going to have to stop always taking the safe option, which isn't very safe anyway, and start taking some risks.

It's alright for Farke to say we need to be greedy in front of goal but we've got to get in front of goal first and we ain't doing that with anywhere near sufficient regularity.

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3 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Yep, but that’s part of the problem - too often we haven’t quite been able to get the balance right.

We’ve got the joint worst goals for record and second worst goals against record. 

I don’t think we can point the finger at either end of the pitch exclusively. 

Agreed it's the whole package - everythinmg needs to work at it's best, like last season.  Not happening so far but there are still 11 games left to get it right.

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