Massively over-rated

[Indy 3,283]

23 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Where's the proof that all these big clubs are interested. The club themselves said we received no offers or approches for any of them in January. Take the holy Trinity of Lewis, Godfrey and Aaron's. Couldn't see any of them getting in to any other premiership first team other than ours at present. They make up 3 quarters of the worst top flight defence I have ever witnessed from us.

I think we are kidding ourselves that clubs will take risks on them coming good at the sort of prices we are bandying around. And thats the thing its the club, then helped by cheap, unreserched, page filling journalism thats is really the only people talking  £30m plus for each one. 

I personally think we would struggle to get bids above £30m for all three.

Cue the list of things I don't understand and am not takimg in to consideration 

I’m at a loss why you support City, you don’t rate any of the players, want us to spend millions we don’t have, don’t rate Farke and have zero positives to say! Is there anything positive you can bring to the table? Like the two superb youngsters we signed in January, ready for our next go at the championship, the fact we even got up with these overrated youngsters......add to that they now have international caps at youth level tends to say they have something about them?

Edited February 24, 2020 by Indy

[Hardhouse44 261]

2 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

I think you are naive, sorry. Fortunately Webber’s in charge of the bargaining for our club rather than yourself, and he will ensure these 3 future stars won’t be going for a paltry £30mil collectively. Max will get that alone, almost certainly. Incidentally, have you seen how much good English players go for in the Championship these days? 

They were average in the championship as our defensive record last season showed ,the ywere fresh and young but not anywhere near good English players in the championship. I wonder if my naivety was what lead me to believe before the season began that webber and co surely wouldn't go in to a premiership campaign with those three as our go to players. No my naivety thought we would look at some of the decent championship defenders and try and strengthen the back line!

[Alex Moss 2,165]

7 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

No my naivety thought we would look at some of the decent championship defenders and try and strengthen the back line!

Posts from the end of last summers transfer window or it didn’t happen 😜

[Hardhouse44 261]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

I’m at a loss why you support City, you don’t rate any of the players, want us to spend millions we don’t have, don’t rate Farke and have zero positives to say! Is there anything positive you can bring to the table? Like the two superb youngsters we signed in January

Right, I have never said we should spend millions we dont have, I think we should have invested some of the premiership money wisely and realistically, I rate plenty of our player, but realistically. My opinion of Farke is he is man in a highly privileged position who whilst sucessful last season has no god given right to be hero worshipped without question whilst turning out displays like yesterday where we clearly laked organisation, commiment and focus.

As for the two "Superb" youngsters we signed in January. I haven't seen then kick a f@#king ball yet. Why would I judge them either way. I did see Amadou though and srbeny,  and oh I don't need to go on. 

Get the  boards/managers collective balls out of your mouth and grow up. I support the team for a good day out, half a dozen pints first and a laugh with the guy followed buy something to cheer about. Cant cheer when you already know youre going to lose

 

[Indy 3,283]

6 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Right, I have never said we should spend millions we dont have, I think we should have invested some of the premiership money wisely and realistically, I rate plenty of our player, but realistically. My opinion of Farke is he is man in a highly privileged position who whilst sucessful last season has no god given right to be hero worshipped without question whilst turning out displays like yesterday where we clearly laked organisation, commiment and focus.

As for the two "Superb" youngsters we signed in January. I haven't seen then kick a f@#king ball yet. Why would I judge them either way. I did see Amadou though and srbeny,  and oh I don't need to go on. 

Get the  boards/managers collective balls out of your mouth and grow up. I support the team for a good day out, half a dozen pints first and a laugh with the guy followed buy something to cheer about. Cant cheer when you already know youre going to lose

 

Then stay at the pub!

[hogesar 9,615]

Good news if Hardhouse is correct (he's not exactly got a glorious history with that, but hey) - we'll keep all our players and blitz the championship next season (which could be off less quality than when we won it last season).

[Aggy 750]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Who is 'everyone' you speak to who supports top teams, and moreso, how much of our games do they watch to draw that conclusion? I can only go by media both in terms of MOTD etc as well as social media where generally premier league fans are also big fans of Cantwell.

Err.. “everyone I speak to who supports big clubs.” That’s the ‘everyone’. Do you want names of all my mates? Dont bother listing all your friends on Facebook and social media who have posted about Cantwell though as I’m not really bothered. 

I also seem to remember you panning me and others when we discussed something Chris Sutton said because you didn’t think he was a very good pundit...and now you’re using MOTD in support of your own argument....  

 

[Aggy 750]

2 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

It depends what constitutes ‘better’.

They both have their merits, neither is better in all aspects. Cantwell has scored several times against the best of the best, Emi hasn’t even a goal to his name in the Premier League. But we all know Emi is capable of the absolute sublime and absurd skill on his day.

Both excellent players, and I agree with Hogesar, a little read of other clubs message boards, Twitter, plus conversations I have with supporters of other clubs in the pub, outnumber interest and praise in Todd Cantwell than any other player by far, infact,  Max would be the second in line, although it was all about Pukki for the first few months. Just my experience of course, but I can’t imagine that’s hugely different for other City supporters, surely?

Emi is still the sixth (I think) top assist maker in the division despite our lack of goals in open play since Christmas. His stats are up there with the very best in the division. Cantwell does pop up in more attacking positions and is also a bit unorthodox and tricky to defend against. 

I actually think Cantwell might be more likely to move to a bigger club - but only as an option off the bench. He’s the sort of player they could bring on for twenty minutes and might get them something. Buendia is far more likely of the two to be a regular starter at a top club though imo. 

[City 2nd 191]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

How many times do people need to be told that its not all about current ability of our young players, it's their potential.

It's also the fact that at a big club they'd be around better players.

Why do you think all these big clubs are interested? Is every scout in world football over rating them?

I think the question here is do our young players actually have any potential.

yes, they are supposedly learning their trade, but the league table does not lie. Aaron’s and Lewis for example were part of the worst championship defence last season, and this they are part of the worst premiership defence. They appear to have learnt very little, and anyone who thinks they could fetch millions in transfer fees might get a very rude awakening!

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

1 minute ago, City 2nd said:

They appear to have learnt very little

On what basis do you say that ?

[City 2nd 191]

Just now, FenwayFrank said:

On what basis do you say that ?

Take a very long long look at our defensive record over the last two seasons, and absorb the figures. It’s shocking!  So what did they learn, what have they learnt, most certainly not how to improve their defending. It isn’t rocket science at all, the table does not lie! I’m with Indy on this one, the fees being bandied about by individual city supporters are not going to happen. Just what club is going to pay 20/30/40 million for Aaron’s, Lewis ( now only in the side due to Byrams injury) and Godfrey, defenders that consistently have learnt little.

[Aggy 750]

6 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

The values in the potential as Hogesar has pointed out. All the young players are FAR from the finished product, their potential is massive. Ben Godfrey just turned 22 a few weeks back, Chilwell will be turning 24 this year and has been playing in the Premier League since 2016 when he was 20 years old - Max has managed it at 18 so I see no reason why he won’t be even better than Chilwell is in 6 years time if he continues playing in the top division. Joe Gomez has only really properly kicked on this season and will be turning 23 in a few weeks so it goes to show what another season or two can do. Last year he wasn’t yet a top class defender, but in the space of just another year is starting to look world class. Again, no reason our young obvious talents can’t follow suit, the potential is there for most to see.

Missed this Alex. 

I think it’s a bit harsh to say Gomez is much better this year than last - there were people at the start of this season suggesting his performances last year might have been a bit of a one season wonder type thing, as he had a few fairly poor games early on and was really good last year. Obviously he’s playing alongside better players but Liverpool push high and he gets exposed at times as well - he looks a much more natural centre half defensively than Godfrey, and did even last year.

My point here isn’t to say Godfrey is terrible or that he should be written off because Liverpool have a youngster who”s better. But there are plenty of players who, at 22, look like established premier league players at either bottom half level or even at the very top. I don’t think our lads look like established premier league players yet. When we hear 50 mil for our lads, I just think that’s well off even factoring in potential - would you pay 50 mil for Gomez? I’m not sure I would just yet - and on that basis, I think our lads are much closer to fifteen mil than fifty. 

P.s. Aarons was 19 when we got promoted (he turned 20 this January according to Wiki) and Chilwell turns 24 on 21st December - there’s 3 years and 18 days between them, not six years. And only 13 months between Chilwell and Godfrey/Lewis.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Aggy

[Indy 3,283]

Let’s add to the debate, Ryan Bennett remember him, a lot of negative comments before loaning him out and his release, went on to Wolves and playing premiership football, now at Leicester....sometimes it’s not about purely the CB but the squad around them and how they are set up to ensure each man does his defensive duties.

Godfrey, Lewis and Aarons are still young and very good defenders, they would not be linked with other top clubs if the6 weren’t, scouts and our coaching staff aren’t as daft and know more than us on here. You don’t have to be a Van **** to play top flight but you do need to be solid with adjustments made to stop the same errors being made, which unfortunately this season we haven’t made.

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

I bet that if Parma came on here and made a long winded post about how brilliant they are most of you would change your minds

[Midlands Yellow 3,924]

2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

I bet that if Parma came on here and made a long winded post about how brilliant they are most of you would change your minds

I wouldn’t have time to read it as I’m off to work in an hour.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

For all that we have played youngsters, I actually think that Idah would have got more minutes at a higher placed Prem club.

[Indy 3,283]

Must admit Norfolk, I was hoping he’d get more time once he stayed in January, not to be! Idah will certainly be hungry to get games next year, we’ve relied on Pukki who started this season on fire, but has gone a little cold of late.

[Hardhouse44 261]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

Then stay at the pub!

That’s the best you’ve got. Why even reply. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Missed this Alex. 

I think it’s a bit harsh to say Gomez is much better this year than last - there were people at the start of this season suggesting his performances last year might have been a bit of a one season wonder type thing, as he had a few fairly poor games early on and was really good last year. Obviously he’s playing alongside better players but Liverpool push high and he gets exposed at times as well - he looks a much more natural centre half defensively than Godfrey, and did even last year.

My point here isn’t to say Godfrey is terrible or that he should be written off because Liverpool have a youngster who”s better. But there are plenty of players who, at 22, look like established premier league players at either bottom half level or even at the very top. I don’t think our lads look like established premier league players yet. When we hear 50 mil for our lads, I just think that’s well off even factoring in potential - would you pay 50 mil for Gomez? I’m not sure I would just yet - and on that basis, I think our lads are much closer to fifteen mil than fifty. 

P.s. Aarons was 19 when we got promoted (he turned 20 this January according to Wiki) and Chilwell turns 24 on 21st December - there’s 3 years and 18 days between them, not six years. And only 13 months between Chilwell and Godfrey/Lewis.

 

Yep, you’re correct, I thought Max was one year younger than he was, my apologies. I think without going as far as their star signs, my point remains that I don’t see why Max cannot be just as successful as Chilwell in 3 or 4 years time, to me he doesn’t look far off him already which makes me feel that he will become the better player, but that’s just my opinion at this stage, it does remain to be seen after all. As for Gomez, I don’t mean in the last 12 months, I mean last season. He has definitely come on leaps and bounds in that time, and has made that position his own now - so it shows what an additional season can do for a young player in terms of maturity and growth. 
 

Wan-Bissaka joined Man Utd from Palace for a reported £50mil or so, he had played for Palace for just over a season and that was it. So I think it’s more than perfectly reasonable to think we should expect £30mil PLUS for Max, easily. Wan-Bissaka hasn’t exactly torn up Old Trafford since his arrival either, but I understand why Utd paid the fee they did for him because of the fact at 22 he’s young, English and not the finished product yet - he will get better, the raw attributes are clearly there. Exactly the same for Max, and for that reason I have a hard job fathoming why we should accept not even half the money for him that Utd did for W-B. The suggestion someone made of £10mil is laughable quite frankly, it’s not 2000 anymore, the landscape has changed.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

44 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

That’s the best you’ve got. Why even reply. 

At least Indy replied. I’m still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is and show us where you were so unhappy with our defensive reinforcements (or lack of them?) at the end of last summers transfer window. I’ve got a feeling we could be waiting a long time...

[hogesar 9,615]

2 hours ago, Aggy said:

Err.. “everyone I speak to who supports big clubs.” That’s the ‘everyone’. Do you want names of all my mates? Dont bother listing all your friends on Facebook and social media who have posted about Cantwell though as I’m not really bothered. 

I also seem to remember you panning me and others when we discussed something Chris Sutton said because you didn’t think he was a very good pundit...and now you’re using MOTD in support of your own argument....  

 

I dont think Sutton is a particularly good pundit.

I dont think MOTD pundits are great either.

It's the combination of national pundits and journalists from BBC, Sky, BT, Guardian, Sun, Telegraph etc that make me take a bit more notice.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

On 24/02/2020 at 10:25, Aggy said:

I wouldn’t necessarily say massively overrated. People just got a bit carried away last season. We were conceding goals for fun last year - skysports’ tables go back as far as 08/09 and only Wolves in 08/09 conceded over 50 goals (but only 52, so still less than us on 57). No other champion side conceded 50 or more and lots of sides only conceded in the thirties. 

Potential is all well and good, but is Godfrey as good as Joe Gomez? Nowhere near - same age, Gomez is a back up player at Liverpool. Godfrey isn’t that standard. Godfrey likely to be a rotation/squad player at a lower half prem side. Is Lewis as good as Chilwell (who’s only a year older)? Nowhere near. Those two are 22 now - they might get a bit better but they aren’t teenagers. Will they ever be top half prem players? Not sure. 

Aarons is a couple of years younger. At a big club, he’d probably get a bit more cover so his defensive weaknesses might not get as exposed as they do here. His attacking ability might see him go on to play at a decent level.

Buendia is the only one really though who has looked like a premier league player. Maybe Krul as well (but he’s a bit older!). 

Gomez is certainly not a back up player for Liverpool, he’s made that spot alongside Van Dijk his own.

You say Lewis is ‘nowhere near’ as good as Chilwell. Well, despite the age and experience difference, I would say after tonight that’s largely up for debate.

[Aggy 750]

4 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

You say Lewis is ‘nowhere near’ as good as Chilwell. Well, despite the age and experience difference, I would say after tonight that’s largely up for debate.

I wouldn’t. One game. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

I wouldn’t. One game. 

Haha, it’s not an accident. If I played a game of football against Chilwell and was having a ‘good day’, there’s only so much I could fluke. And btw, Gomez isn’t a back up player at Liverpool, but you keep on making stuff up buddy 👍🏼

[Aggy 750]

1 hour ago, Alex Moss said:

Haha, it’s not an accident. If I played a game of football against Chilwell and was having a ‘good day’, there’s only so much I could fluke. And btw, Gomez isn’t a back up player at Liverpool, but you keep on making stuff up buddy 👍🏼

Errr...who said anything about a “fluke” or “having a good day”? 

Not really sure what your point is about Gomez. Is it that Godfrey is good enough to be starting at Liverpool? Or are you just showing that Godfrey is miles off Gomez’s standard? 
 

PS. How many prem games did Gomez start before Matip’s injury? How many has he started since Matip’s injury. How does being a back up work?

Edited February 29, 2020 by Aggy