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45 minutes ago, king canary said:

Godfrey looked rusty. Hanley was also rubbish though, as was Tettey so he was hardly alone in these stakes.

I don't think our defensive issues are down to individual players though- thecway we defend as a team is suspect. Teams seem to find it uniquely easy to get in behind us and make our defenders face their own goal, something we hugely struggle to do at the other end of the pitch.

I think the whole defensive unit looks under drilled. However, a lot of the time even if it isn’t one individual massive mistake, it’s just one of them being slightly out of position or slightly off the pace of the striker - Godfrey because he isn’t a natural defender, Hanley (and even Zimmerman to an extent ) - because they aren’t good enough.

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7 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I think the whole defensive unit looks under drilled. However, a lot of the time even if it isn’t one individual massive mistake, it’s just one of them being slightly out of position or slightly off the pace of the striker - Godfrey because he isn’t a natural defender, Hanley (and even Zimmerman to an extent ) - because they aren’t good enough.

Agreed. They don't defend as a unit and then the midfield also doesn't offer much cover. 

Defenders make mistakes at times but they often go unnoticed if there is enough cover around them.

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56 minutes ago, king canary said:

Godfrey looked rusty. Hanley was also rubbish though, as was Tettey so he was hardly alone in these stakes.

I don't think our defensive issues are down to individual players though- thecway we defend as a team is suspect. Teams seem to find it uniquely easy to get in behind us and make our defenders face their own goal, something we hugely struggle to do at the other end of the pitch.

Harsh on Hanley. He was one of about 3 players on the pitch who looked like they gave a ****. He might be limited but at least he cares. (And I am by no means a Hanley fan whatsoever).

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Just now, kick it off said:

Harsh on Hanley. He was one of about 3 players on the pitch who looked like they gave a ****. He might be limited but at least he cares. (And I am by no means a Hanley fan whatsoever).

Caring is fine but it doesn't stop you being poor. He's a championship player at best, as are too many of our team.

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Fact is, Godfrey has played CB for 2 years now and we have been atrocious defensively for two years. Watching him carrying the ball forward today, you can see what a beast he could be in midfield. Quite why we aren't playing him in his natural position and are trying to force him to be a CB when he just isn't great at it, is quite beyond me if I'm honest.

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Just now, king canary said:

Caring is fine but it doesn't stop you being poor. He's a championship player at best, as are too many of our team.

Agreed.... but we are rock bottom of the Premier League because our entire squad is Championship standard. At least he is Championship standard that gives a toss, unlike 8 others on the pitch today.

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Surprised people still think he should be moved into CDM where some of his weaknesses would be more exposed than at CB.

He was poor today but so was Hanley. 

Our fans can crow on here how he's not good enough - unfortunately he's likely to be too good for us and not be with us next season.

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13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Surprised people still think he should be moved into CDM where some of his weaknesses would be more exposed than at CB.

He was poor today but so was Hanley. 

Our fans can crow on here how he's not good enough - unfortunately he's likely to be too good for us and not be with us next season.

What weaknesses would be more exposed than at centre back?

His ability driving forward would be better suited to midfield. His passing ability would be equally as useful in holding midfield. His fairly poor ability in the air (for a centre half) would be less exposed in midfield. His lack of defensive positioning would be slightly less exposed in midfield (admittedly it could still be an issue but at least he has a defence behind him).

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2 hours ago, GenerationA47 said:

Towards the end today it looked like we were playing 3 at the back with Ben pushing up at times, am I wrong?

Yes when Farke made the subs he changed it to a back 3 with Hanley central , Godfrey right and Lewis left. Aarons was in front of Lewis as left wing back.

 

With Buendia on the pitch it did improve things a bit for a time I thought but we had too many passengers on the pitch to really achieve anything.

 

i thought Godfrey had a decent game personally, but without Zimbo we lack a real leader on the pitch and it shows.

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We always seem even more vulnerable  at set pieces and corners when Godfrey is in the back four.It was emphasised today .... every, every time.

= not a centre back.He's not even a leader.

Hope to be proven wrong because he is some talent.

Edited by BroadstairsR

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If you were an impartial viewer today, I'd guarantee you would think Hanley was the natural ball-playing defender in our side (which I didn't think he had in him in all honesty).

Ben has the potential to be a really good player but it isn't a coincidence that with him back in the side, the solid games against Newcastle and Liverpool turned back into the soft-bellied chaos at the back today.

 I think we've marketed him superbly and we will get top dollar for him as a result. But Godfrey had 3 cards to play today and Wolves didn't even have to try to mark them- he isn't (yet) a good enough defender.

 

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I think we've missed Klose so, so much this season. I think he was up there with Krul and Pukki as most important player for the jump to the Prem. At least one experienced CB is a must, plus the goals he provides from corners would have been invaluable, that is if we actually had anyone on the pitch capable of taking a good set-piece, which is rarely the case without Vrancic playing (another reason why he must start).

Edited by Canarywary

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8 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

If you were an impartial viewer today, I'd guarantee you would think Hanley was the natural ball-playing defender in our side (which I didn't think he had in him in all honesty).

 

Yet guess who completed a higher % of passes 😉

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Is this the same godfrey people rated at 50m before a ball was kicked this season?

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17 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yet guess who completed a higher % of passes 😉

I dunno, you got me. Was it Keyser Soze?

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1 minute ago, Mason 47 said:

I dunno, you got me. Was it Keyser Soze?

Professor Plum.

No, actually it was Godfrey (although only by 1% so pretty meaningless). 

He wasn't at the races yesterday but he was no worse on the ball than most of the team.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

Professor Plum.

No, actually it was Godfrey (although only by 1% so pretty meaningless). 

He wasn't at the races yesterday but he was no worse on the ball than most of the team.

Sure, I'm not singling BG out as being particularly terrible on the ball yesterday- it was one of those days were every player seemed to have a titanic touch on them.

What I was more taking aim at really is that out of all of our CB options, Godfrey always seems to be the one overplaying himself into trouble (as he did yesterday on a couple of occasions) with Zimmermann a reasonably close second and Hanley being the safest bet (probably being more accepting of his limitations and keeping it as simple as possible). It's also undeniable that the relative calm at the back in the past few games went up in smoke yesterday- which on review is down to a multitude of errors- but young Ben did catch an awful case of 'Russell Martin -itis' , particularly for each of their goals.

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3 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Sure, I'm not singling BG out as being particularly terrible on the ball yesterday- it was one of those days were every player seemed to have a titanic touch on them.

What I was more taking aim at really is that out of all of our CB options, Godfrey always seems to be the one overplaying himself into trouble (as he did yesterday on a couple of occasions) with Zimmermann a reasonably close second and Hanley being the safest bet (probably being more accepting of his limitations and keeping it as simple as possible). It's also undeniable that the relative calm at the back in the past few games went up in smoke yesterday- which on review is down to a multitude of errors- but young Ben did catch an awful case of 'Russell Martin -itis' , particularly for each of their goals.

Yeah I think that is all totally fair.

Godfrey needs to work on his decision making no doubt. I think he'll get it though, he seems to generally be a smart player. I genuinely believe he'd flourish surrounded by a higher quality of players and with a team that isn't getting destroyed on the counter on a weekly basis.

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Based on watching him yesterday, I think Hanley has learned that in this team he's expected to try to avoid hoofing it downfield and he no longer looks panicked when he has the ball and is expected to play it out.  He tended to go for short and safe passing options, often to Tettey, which didn't create much but equally most often kept possession.


IMO Godfrey suffered from being on the right of the two CBs which is not where he's played very often, also it means his trademark diagonal ball for Aarons to run onto was not available, a loss to our attacking options because Hanley is never going to try that pass.

 

Godfrey was trying to make something happen and I'd guess this was influenced by having Hanley alongside him who does produce the least creatively of our 3 CBs.  This is why he sometimes makes more ambitious passes which don't always come off, or sometimes will play himself into trouble, it comes with the territory.

 

For me, yesterday demonstrated how important Zimbo is to us defensively and as a leader for the whole team.  It's no surprise we lost the defensive solidity we'd got back when he was in the side again.

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23 hours ago, cornish sam said:

Well that knee didn't take long to jerk... Central defense is all about partnerships, knowing where your partner will be and what his strengths/weaknesses are, only so much of this can be learnt on the training field, how many times have Godfrey and Hanley actually played together? I would suggest of all our defenders these two are actually the least well balanced pairing...

I think last year Godfrey + Hanley was our worst combination - for whatever reason. But whether true or not, Godfrey is still developing and he’s not worth big money just yet.

And unfortunately it looks like Zimbo is out for Leicester as well now.

Edited by Surfer

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On 23/02/2020 at 17:47, City 2nd said:

The fact is, only one person thinks he is a centre back, and that’s the chap who picks the team! He was recommended to city as a defensive midfield player by One Mr Worthington, who managed him at York!

What about the person who picked him at centre back for the England U21s and made him captain? 

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I just don't see the midfield thing, not at this level.

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On 23/02/2020 at 17:17, duke63 said:

To me he would make a better defensive midfielder. He is strong and quick and can use the ball well. It has to be worth trying him there now. 

Interesting idea, surprised it hasn’t been mentioned before (like in this thread).

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On 23/02/2020 at 19:08, king canary said:

Caring is fine but it doesn't stop you being poor. He's a championship player at best, as are too many of our team.

Strange how defensively we improved once he* was back playing with Zimbo.

 

Edit: he=Hanley

Edited by Nuff Said

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Number of people writing Godfrey off after his first full 90 minutes back in 9 weeks is ridiculous. He was playing dam well before his injury against Leicester (and was playing very well in the game against Bournemouth -  where we kept a clean sheet - before he was sent off). 

Ben Godfrey.PNG

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9 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

For me, yesterday demonstrated how important Zimbo is to us defensively and as a leader for the whole team.  It's no surprise we lost the defensive solidity we'd got back when he was in the side again.

This^^^  Zimmermann is our lynchpin imo.  We only started doing well when he got fit and into the team last season - from that first substitution when he came on as sub at  right back against Preston and made the diagonal ball that led to the first goal.  I hope he is fit again soon, we need his attitude and personality on the pitch and the best cb pairing is always going to have him as one of that pair. 

Godfrey is better with him on the pitch - and so is Hanley imo. As for Zimbo not being available for the next match, then that is going to need Godfrey at his best.

Edited by lake district canary

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On 23/02/2020 at 17:57, Cantiaci Canary said:

I wonder if we'll see Klose this season.

 

I saw Klose Sunday...... @ CO-OP .

I think he has been out so long, that he won't be an answer at all this season. Maybe a few minutes unless desperately required for more, but I guess he'll be reviewed for next season.

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On 23/02/2020 at 17:17, duke63 said:

To me he would make a better defensive midfielder. He is strong and quick and can use the ball well. It has to be worth trying him there now. 

Yeah I agree but sadly he does not want to play cdm, personally don't think he will make a top class defender , defensively not good enough .

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I just don't see the midfield thing, not at this level.

In what way?  This level is tough of course but I think much of the feeling is that he hasn't met what we expected of him this season. And I think we were impressed last season as much because of when he came forward with the ball. He can pass and over distance as well.

But we did last season and have done this season, been caught through the middle with poor positioning when the opposition has the ball and quite a lot of ball watching.

I would love to see him tried as a holding player. I would love to see him more involved. He looked quite happy to come forward looking for it when we went three at the back late on Sunday and quite neat with the ball at his feet.

Maybe they have tried him there n training, I don't know, but at this stage, i don't see any harm in us trying something a bit different. This part of the season has reminded me of Hughton and Neil when they were so worried that they didn't dare do anything different. Surely DF could still get us playing a nice possession based style but try two up front and three at the back or something that the opposition might not expect from us.

For instance,  it seems a fairly widespread opinion that Rupp and Duda have added nothing and maybe made things worse. Good for DF, he tried something. But it hasn't changed anything and in fact, Sunday was one of the worst performances of the season.. So we haven't added anything from Trybull and Leitner.

However slight the chance is of staying up, we have to make a stab at it. Forget goal difference, that won't keep us up. And DFs job is safe so he is worry free about the future. Start on Friday by showing you have the nous to take this club further by showing how you can adapt.

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