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Webber interview

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11 minutes ago, king canary said:

No we shouldn't 'all know that by now' because it is rubbish.

Debts were cleared pre-promotion (aside from the £5m we borrowed off the fans for the Colney upgrade). So no the cash hasn't helped to clear debts or build the academy/facilities.

We're debt free, will have a turnover of over £100m this season, likely to see our highest ever play sales happen this summer and two years of parachute payments coming in. The idea we can't compete to sign the best players from teams like Blackburn or Reading is ridiculous.

 

 

Yes it's frustrating but we're not going to change things and start chucking loads of money at players, imo. It isn't the model and this has already be shown by the players we've started to bring in already in Jan (young, full of potential, don't cost a fortune).

I believe that the figures aren't as good as what you've suggested and we don't actually know whether anyone wants to buy our players or not yet. Webber said there weren't any bids in Jan and I believe him. The point he was making in his interview was that if a team like Liverpool or Spurs were actually in for any of our players, they'd just come and get them. They have the funds to do so. They certainly wouldn't be leaking stories to the Sun and Daily Star etc.

Sorry Kingo, but we really should know that by now. They haven't hidden the fact we're not going to be spending loads of money on players at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

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21 minutes ago, TCCANARY said:

Didn't we make a loss in the year we got promoted?

 

Yes, mainly based on the bonuses paid for promotion, but this wasn't of any concern as the incoming funds more than covered it.

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53 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

Yes it's frustrating but we're not going to change things and start chucking loads of money at players, imo. It isn't the model and this has already be shown by the players we've started to bring in already in Jan (young, full of potential, don't cost a fortune).

I believe that the figures aren't as good as what you've suggested and we don't actually know whether anyone wants to buy our players or not yet. Webber said there weren't any bids in Jan and I believe him. The point he was making in his interview was that if a team like Liverpool or Spurs were actually in for any of our players, they'd just come and get them. They have the funds to do so. They certainly wouldn't be leaking stories to the Sun and Daily Star etc.

Sorry Kingo, but we really should know that by now. They haven't hidden the fact we're not going to be spending loads of money on players at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

We'll see what happens but this all feels like we're being primed for another summer of minimal investment in the squad.

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

We'll see what happens but this all feels like we're being primed for another summer of minimal investment in the squad.

It should be no surprise to any of us that we will not be spending big in the summer.  Last year, not spending big got us promotion, this year isn't over yet and next year won't be much different, although if somehow we stay up there will be a bit more scope for spending more.  We are going to be so good next year, whatever division we are in. 

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Raggett has not proved it at city but he has been given chance at Portsmouth and taken it with both hands.Their fans and players are raving about him,So let us get him back at Norwich when Godfrey leaves he will be ok in championship 

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25 minutes ago, king canary said:

We'll see what happens but this all feels like we're being primed for another summer of minimal investment in the squad.

We keep Pukki and the core squad intact, we don't necessarily have to spend big this summer if we go down. I try to avoid thinking about the alternative.

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

Because for me, the whole point of going up, not spending, and going back down is to put us in a strong financial position in the Championship. I'm not up for us pleading poverty for another season.

This , I don't think that would be the way to be a "top 26 " English club would it? I am not a fan of paying silly money , but you will have to pay up if you want to sign a good player... even if he's young and playing for a league one club say... 

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6 minutes ago, ROBFLECK said:

This , I don't think that would be the way to be a "top 26 " English club would it? I am not a fan of paying silly money , but you will have to pay up if you want to sign a good player... even if he's young and playing for a league one club say... 

Well, Webber is talking about spending on 'experienced Championship players' not those at League One level (we've just bought one of those). Big difference.

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20 minutes ago, Hucks6 said:

Raggett has not proved it at city but he has been given chance at Portsmouth and taken it with both hands.Their fans and players are raving about him,So let us get him back at Norwich when Godfrey leaves he will be ok in championship 

Michael Nelson looked good in League One.

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I think it's more of an educated decision that we're not going to spent £18 million on a McBurnie - rather than that we financially are unable to.

It's pretty clear that Webber backs himself to be able to identify talent (just as good as an £18 million McBurnie) from lower leagues and abroad for less money - why would we not choose to do that if we believe we can be successful at it? Especially when we've already proven what we can do with a £5m spend on someone like Buendia.

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8 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

Michael Nelson looked good in League One.

Even Ipswich look half decent

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We can’t go through the rest of time using the ‘poverty’ thing, it doesn’t really wash.  If we get relegated and sell a couple of players for £25m-£30m+, we should certainly be able to be in the market for decent replacements should we decide we need them. That’s not to say we’ll splash £20m on a player but we ought to at least be able to be competitive in the market.

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5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think it's more of an educated decision that we're not going to spent £18 million on a McBurnie - rather than that we financially are unable to.

It's pretty clear that Webber backs himself to be able to identify talent (just as good as an £18 million McBurnie) from lower leagues and abroad for less money - why would we not choose to do that if we believe we can be successful at it? Especially when we've already proven what we can do with a £5m spend on someone like Buendia.

I see your point, but you can add others into the list that haven’t yet paid back. We are dining out a little on having Godfrey/Aarons/Lewis/Cantwell here, all of which were here when Webber joined.

Going lower league/overseas/players for the future/looking to re-establish themselves is fine, but imo it is good to have a mix as it’s not just about the medium/long term - the here-and-now matters as well.

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1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

We can’t go through the rest of time using the ‘poverty’ thing, it doesn’t really wash.  If we get relegated and sell a couple of players for £25m-£30m+, we should certainly be able to be in the market for decent replacements should we decide we need them. That’s not to say we’ll splash £20m on a player but we ought to at least be able to be competitive in the market.

I generally agree. Say we sell Aarons for £20m; we have Byram as a ready replacement, when fit, so (I hope) we go out and spend £2-3m on a back up who supports if the main man gets injured.  Same for Lewis - we have MacCallum next season.

I guess what we won't do is go and spend money on '£10m rated' players like Amadou and are priced out of moves for players like Jarrod Bowen - an 'established Championship player'.

 

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

Because for me, the whole point of going up, not spending, and going back down is to put us in a strong financial position in the Championship. I'm not up for us pleading poverty for another season.

I think the whole point is to be in a strong financial position whatever league we are in.  This season was tricky financially as we are still in the process of getting everything straight. Once funds come in for this season, we will be in a far stronger position and any sales will add to that.  But that will apply if we stay up or go down and yes, it will help us if we go down but it will also help enormously if we stay up.   Financially strong means just that - we don't have to sell anyone, we don't need to worry that money isn't there to carry on developing, we don't need to worry if we go down and we don't need to worry if we stay up.  Being financially strong takes a lot of  the stress out of the club and as long as the policy stays in place and we keep developing the playing/coaching side of things, there should not be too much wrong in the club for quite a few years - and then probably only because the policy changes for some reason.

Stick to the path and the rewards will be there.

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45 minutes ago, Hucks6 said:

Raggett has not proved it at city but he has been given chance at Portsmouth and taken it with both hands.Their fans and players are raving about him,So let us get him back at Norwich when Godfrey leaves he will be ok in championship 

If you watch the Webber interview, he states Raggett hasn’t ‘worked out’ - I’d say that pretty conclusive proof that we won’t be taking up a further years option this summer.

 

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I think there would have been many more happy posters in the summer if we'd spent 10m on Amadou rather than loaned him.

Edited by nutty nigel
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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I think there would have been many more happy posters in the summer if we'd spent 10m on Amadou rather than loaned him.

Can’t keep pleading poverty.

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I think there would have been many more happy posters in the summer if we'd spent 10m on Amadou rather than loaned him.

Yes, in hindsight I probably would have been one of them; I felt we needed a strong defensive midfielder as I didn't think either Tettey or Trybull were going to be strong enough in that position.  As Webber says - it hasn't worked out for him due to those two being picked ahead of him.  I'm not wholly convinced that they are, given our position in the league.

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36 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I see your point, but you can add others into the list that haven’t yet paid back. We are dining out a little on having Godfrey/Aarons/Lewis/Cantwell here, all of which were here when Webber joined.

Going lower league/overseas/players for the future/looking to re-establish themselves is fine, but imo it is good to have a mix as it’s not just about the medium/long term - the here-and-now matters as well.

It's not just the youth players though. It's also the fact that players like Stiepermann, Vrancic, Leitner, Zimmerman, Trybull, Hernandez have all succeeded at championship level yet to buy a proven version of them in the championship would have cost 3,4, maybe even 5x more.

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2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's not just the youth players though. It's also the fact that players like Stiepermann, Vrancic, Leitner, Zimmerman, Trybull, Hernandez have all succeeded at championship level yet to buy a proven version of them in the championship would have cost 3,4, maybe even 5x more.

Blue  in the face yet Hoggo.? Doesnt matter how many times , ways or how much you break it down. Some will have already chosen to ignore the truth .....we have adopted a new policy that pretty much rules out buying a " ready made player" .  That may change if the right deal comes along,  but I wont be holding my breath.    

I am dead set against  risking any part of our great club in order to survive in the so called " promised land" . Where wealth is the twelfth man.  

 

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It's not about 'pleading poverty', it's about looking for good value and shrewd investment.

Look at the highest fees paid since the summer for an individual player by the other 'smaller' teams in the league:

Watford: Ismaila Sarr, £27m
Aston Villa: Wesley, £22.5m
Sheffield United: Sander Berge, £20m
Brighton: Adam Webster/Neal Maupay, £20m
Southampton: Danny Ings, £20m
Bournemouth: Arnaud Danjuma, £13.7m
Burnley: Josh Brownhill, £9m
Crystal Palace: James McCarthy, £3m

Burnley and Palace have spent the least out of these teams, but look pretty safe. These figures in isolation aren't worth a great deal as they don't factor in total spend, but it does show that you don't necessarily have to spend huge amounts on players to survive if you have a decent squad and a decent manager.

Also, just for comparison, let's take a look at the top six in the Championship, which is where we want to be next season (assuming we don't pull off a miracle):

West Brom: Kenneth Zohore, £8m
Leeds: A couple of minor undisclosed signings (one from Man City academy and one from Carlisle), plus a few loans
Fulham: Ivan Cavaleiro, £10.5m
Brentford: Bryan Mbeumo, £6m
Forest: Carl Jenkinson, £2m
Preston: Tom Bayliss, £2m

I've had a quick look at the rest of the Championship too, and there really isn't that much money being thrown around. A few big individual signings (Mbenza to Huddersfield for £11m, Bielik to Derby for £7.5m, Kalas to Bristol City for £8m, Sunjic to Birmingham for £7m, Puscas to Reading for £7m, and a few signings around the £5m mark), but competing for Championship players is the absolute worst business plan when we're in the division itself.

We are in an outstanding position. Webber's interview makes it abundantly clear that we won't be looking to sell in the summer; if bids come in from big clubs (ie. the traditional top six plus Leicester, Everton and Wolves, and possibly West Ham/Newcastle at a push) then we'll listen to them, and they'll have to pay top whack to get our top talent.

If those bids come in, we'll be able to invest the money sensibly and sustainably, whether on players in the McCallum/Maddison/Godfrey mould, or more young players from abroad in the Buendía mould (plus any talent from our academy, of course). And if the bids don't come in, we'll be in a position where we can attack the Championship with pretty much the squad we've got now, which we already know is good enough to win the division. And for every player that does leave for big bucks, the higher the price will go for the others.

My guess (for what it's worth) is that we'll probably lose Aarons and Cantwell to Spurs/Liverpool for north of £50m, but the others will stay... unless someone has already said they want Lewis in the summer, which was the reason we bought McCallum?


 

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11 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

It's not about 'pleading poverty', it's about looking for good value and shrewd investment.

Look at the highest fees paid since the summer for an individual player by the other 'smaller' teams in the league:

Watford: Ismaila Sarr, £27m
Aston Villa: Wesley, £22.5m
Sheffield United: Sander Berge, £20m
Brighton: Adam Webster/Neal Maupay, £20m
Southampton: Danny Ings, £20m
Bournemouth: Arnaud Danjuma, £13.7m
Burnley: Josh Brownhill, £9m
Crystal Palace: James McCarthy, £3m

Burnley and Palace have spent the least out of these teams, but look pretty safe. These figures in isolation aren't worth a great deal as they don't factor in total spend, but it does show that you don't necessarily have to spend huge amounts on players to survive if you have a decent squad and a decent manager.

Also, just for comparison, let's take a look at the top six in the Championship, which is where we want to be next season (assuming we don't pull off a miracle):

West Brom: Kenneth Zohore, £8m
Leeds: A couple of minor undisclosed signings (one from Man City academy and one from Carlisle), plus a few loans
Fulham: Ivan Cavaleiro, £10.5m
Brentford: Bryan Mbeumo, £6m
Forest: Carl Jenkinson, £2m
Preston: Tom Bayliss, £2m

I've had a quick look at the rest of the Championship too, and there really isn't that much money being thrown around. A few big individual signings (Mbenza to Huddersfield for £11m, Bielik to Derby for £7.5m, Kalas to Bristol City for £8m, Sunjic to Birmingham for £7m, Puscas to Reading for £7m, and a few signings around the £5m mark), but competing for Championship players is the absolute worst business plan when we're in the division itself.

We are in an outstanding position. Webber's interview makes it abundantly clear that we won't be looking to sell in the summer; if bids come in from big clubs (ie. the traditional top six plus Leicester, Everton and Wolves, and possibly West Ham/Newcastle at a push) then we'll listen to them, and they'll have to pay top whack to get our top talent.

If those bids come in, we'll be able to invest the money sensibly and sustainably, whether on players in the McCallum/Maddison/Godfrey mould, or more young players from abroad in the Buendía mould (plus any talent from our academy, of course). And if the bids don't come in, we'll be in a position where we can attack the Championship with pretty much the squad we've got now, which we already know is good enough to win the division. And for every player that does leave for big bucks, the higher the price will go for the others.

My guess (for what it's worth) is that we'll probably lose Aarons and Cantwell to Spurs/Liverpool for north of £50m, but the others will stay... unless someone has already said they want Lewis in the summer, which was the reason we bought McCallum?


 

Yep, just about sums it up Wolfo.  Like you say, we will be in a very strong position next season,  even if we stay up. I would rather be a relatively wealthy self funded  yo yo club than one lurching from one financial crisis to another just to stay in the Prem.

Bring it all on!!

 

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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I think there would have been many more happy posters in the summer if we'd spent 10m on Amadou rather than loaned him.

Yes and I would have been massively unhappy as he really wasn't very good.

This is the point. Why beg that we spend loads of money when no player is necessarily guaranteed to work out?? I am so glad we got him on loan and were able to move him on. Would have hamstrung us financially if we'd signed him or Fahrmann on permanent deals.

The sooner our fans start understanding that there is absolutely NO WAY we'll be spending big on players, the better.

Perhaps in another season's time if we've managed to stay in the Prem or been promoted again. But not now. And why should we? Done alright, really, without splashing out too much. I call that smart recruitment and managing the finances properly. NOT pleading poverty.

Edited by BobLoz3
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13 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

Yes and I would have been massively unhappy as he really wasn't very good.

This is the point. Why beg that we spend loads of money when no player is necessarily guaranteed to work out?? I am so glad we got him on loan and were able to move him on. Would have hamstrung us financially if we'd signed him or Fahrmann on permanent deals.

The sooner our fans start understanding that there is absolutely NO WAY we'll be spending big on players, the better.

Perhaps in another season's time if we've managed to stay in the Prem or been promoted again. But not now. And why should we? Done alright, really, without splashing out too much. I call that smart recruitment and managing the finances properly. NOT pleading poverty.

A couple of things...

1) I hate this attitude that 'it might not work out so why do it?' Nothing is guaranteed to work out- taking risks is important otherwise you'll never progress. I'm sick of people saying 'but...but...Naismith!!!' every time someone suggests spending more than a fiver on player. Get over it.

2) Our record in the loan market of late has been terrible. Possibly this says something about the kind of players you can get on loan vs the kind you can get by actually signing them permanently. 

 

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18 minutes ago, king canary said:

A couple of things...

1) I hate this attitude that 'it might not work out so why do it?' Nothing is guaranteed to work out- taking risks is important otherwise you'll never progress. I'm sick of people saying 'but...but...Naismith!!!' every time someone suggests spending more than a fiver on player. Get over it.

2) Our record in the loan market of late has been terrible. Possibly this says something about the kind of players you can get on loan vs the kind you can get by actually signing them permanently. 

 

I honestly totally get what you're saying. I'm sorry that you 'hate' the "it might not work" attitude but it's kind of sensible in terms of an approach, within the constraints the powers that be are working in now.

In reality, perhaps if we could sign players who have played in the British leagues and proven themselves it would be more of a calculated risk. Still no guarantees a player will settle etc. The club is now about making money on players. Not spending a load and then having to sell for a cut price or let go on a free. After McNally et al and our crazy spending, we nearly ended up out of business. I'm afraid that, because of this, we have simply had to look at other alternatives. Some of it has worked and some of it hasn't.

Pretty sure it'll continue in that vein for a while yet.

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29 minutes ago, king canary said:

A couple of things...

1) I hate this attitude that 'it might not work out so why do it?' Nothing is guaranteed to work out- taking risks is important otherwise you'll never progress. I'm sick of people saying 'but...but...Naismith!!!' every time someone suggests spending more than a fiver on player. Get over it.

2) Our record in the loan market of late has been terrible. Possibly this says something about the kind of players you can get on loan vs the kind you can get by actually signing them permanently. 

 

The question is whether the risk endangers the financial security of the club. What is often described here a 'a calculated gamble' is actually a risk the poster would never take with their own finances.

Edited by PurpleCanary
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2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

The question is whether the risk endangers the financial security of the club. What is often described here a 'a calculated gamble' is actually a risk the poster would never take with their own finances.

The question is then, why does a team who has just had a season in the Premier League, has not spent much and is debt free see signing a top player from another Championship team as a threat to long term financial security?

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28 minutes ago, king canary said:

The question is then, why does a team who has just had a season in the Premier League, has not spent much and is debt free see signing a top player from another Championship team as a threat to long term financial security?

Webber would be the person to answer that, but I suspect he might say he is talking in general policy terms, especially since he clearly thinks there is much betterr value for money elsewhere, rather than ruling out buying ever buying one such player.

The two attacking stars from last season in the Championship who got talked about as Premier League targets were Adams and Bowen. One cannot trust reported transfer fees but supposedly Bowen cost £20m, while Adams cost £15m and he has yet to score a goal in 8 starts and 12 appearances off the bench.

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It’s very simple. The sooner people realise it’s not about the fee, and all about clever scouting, the better. All these expensive established players start off costing relatively nothing until they’re proven, and it’s quite obvious that our strategy is to source these talents early. What on earth is not to like about that?

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