nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Number9 said: *You can argue with my opinion if you like. *The players had done well but were tiring and letting LFC progress. (You could see that, it's statement of fact not opinion) *Not making subs till it's too late for them to take effect can be called intransigence, but it is only one of the ways which Farke manifests that quality. He hasn't upped his game management past couple of seasons, he still makes the same mistakes. I don't mind if you prefer to overlook his failings, we all have failings, but as a very public football manager his shortcomings are open to critique. I agree with your last three words just not the assumption that your opinion should be used to measure someone else's short comings. So in your opinion replacing the players would have resulted in a change in performance against Liverpool. In my opinion when we've watched Norwich winning leagues and inferior sides made subs Norwich's superiority didn't lessen. You obviously believe what you believe so criticise accordingly. However Farke not agreeing with you isn't a shortcoming on his behalf. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TeemuVanBasten 3,327 Posted February 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Nuff Said said: See below for one possibility. And I think in many ways we are better positioned than Burnley we’re when they went down We do practically everything different to Burnley though. They operate more like we did under Lambert, buying players from the division below. They also have a strong preference for domestic talent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 19, 2020 16 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: I agree with your last three words just not the assumption that your opinion should be used to measure someone else's short comings. So in your opinion replacing the players would have resulted in a change in performance against Liverpool. In my opinion when we've watched Norwich winning leagues and inferior sides made subs Norwich's superiority didn't lessen. You obviously believe what you believe so criticise accordingly. However Farke not agreeing with you isn't a shortcoming on his behalf. You watched the game on Saturday I assume, did you feel that we had done well, better than expected, up to 60 - 70 mins? Did you notice that our players were looking jaded and LFC were coming back into it after Klopps subs? At that time Farke chose to sit on his hands, which you agreed with, and not make any changes. I felt that we should have made a couple of changes at that point and we could have drawn / won. Farke has consistently chosen not to make changes, we have consistently lost or drawn games. We are hanging off the bottom. You choose not to offer criticism, that's your choice, it doesn't change the fact that Farkes choices have not worked. We will be relegated in a few weeks. I believe our players are good enough to do better than that and the problem is the manager / coaching team. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 4,938 Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) They went down, kept faith with their manager who’d got them promoted and went back up. I think that’s what we’re hoping for, no? (Barring a miracle this season) Edited February 19, 2020 by Nuff Said Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Number9 said: You watched the game on Saturday I assume, did you feel that we had done well, better than expected, up to 60 - 70 mins? Did you notice that our players were looking jaded and LFC were coming back into it after Klopps subs? At that time Farke chose to sit on his hands, which you agreed with, and not make any changes. I felt that we should have made a couple of changes at that point and we could have drawn / won. Farke has consistently chosen not to make changes, we have consistently lost or drawn games. We are hanging off the bottom. You choose not to offer criticism, that's your choice, it doesn't change the fact that Farkes choices have not worked. We will be relegated in a few weeks. I believe our players are good enough to do better than that and the problem is the manager / coaching team. Finally. I would have made a sub I would have started Emi The fact that Farke did neither does not question his ability. They were just my opinions. No way am I worthy of a standard with which to judge. Farke is making informed decisions all through the game. Informed to a point where we don't have a clue. Following a football club is all about opinions. Without them this message board would be empty. On a general sense I don't think there's any evidence that making changes early, late or not at all has a positive effect. They all work sometimes and not others. Would be interesting to see stats. But we remember the ones that do make a difference and call them inspired. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, nutty nigel said: Finally. I would have made a sub I would have started Emi The fact that Farke did neither does not question his ability. They were just my opinions. No way am I worthy of a standard with which to judge. Farke is making informed decisions all through the game. Informed to a point where we don't have a clue. Following a football club is all about opinions. Without them this message board would be empty. On a general sense I don't think there's any evidence that making changes early, late or not at all has a positive effect. They all work sometimes and not others. Would be interesting to see stats. But we remember the ones that do make a difference and call them inspired. We have historical evidence over this season as one example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, Number9 said: We have historical evidence over this season as one example. Do we? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted February 19, 2020 43 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: Do we? We have an example of Farke winning the league last season with a load of unfancied inexperienced German 3rd tier reserves. But Dave who delivers papers in Thorpe St Andrew knows better. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, nutty nigel said: Do we? Evidence this season shows that late subs doesn't have a positive effect. That's based on City's games, this season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 19, 2020 58 minutes ago, Number9 said: Evidence this season shows that late subs doesn't have a positive effect. That's based on City's games, this season. There's no evidence to say making them earlier, or not making them at all would have a positive effect either. In your opinion making them would have made a positive effect. I know that. But it doesn't mean your opinion is enough to suggest Farke has been wrong. But, just say you are right, and early subs bring about improved performances, we could use that to our advantage and back any team that makes a sub before the 70th minute to score the next goal in the game. If their opponent hasn't made a sub before 80 mins we can double down. Will we make a killing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canary dwarf 221 Posted February 19, 2020 2 hours ago, hogesar said: We have an example of Farke winning the league last season with a load of unfancied inexperienced German 3rd tier reserves. But Dave who delivers papers in Thorpe St And😁rew knows better. But Dave is the daddy of paper deliveries give him a break😂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Christoph Stiepermann 1,120 Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) I agree. However, I don't think Jurgen Klopp or any other world class coach could take this team any further either .If you watch us play week in and week out and come to the conclusion that the head coach as the problem as opposed to our acute lack of athleticism, height, pace, running power, experience in defence and options up front then you must be completely blind. It's like watching a skilled fighter compete in a weight class a bit too big for them. In a different league like La Liga or the Bundesliga we would be okay, in this league we're just not athletic enough or good enough technically to compensate for it. You can't fix that on the training ground or with tactics/substitutions. I'm just hoping next time we get promoted the landscape of this league would have changed for the better. Hopefully the days of this league being clogged up by hoofball teams with the one so clever and so inventive tactic of 'defend deep and give it to the fast lads to run with' will be over and trying to play good, attacking football on the deck will be seen as the norm for most teams and not a futile, suicidal pipe dream like it is now. Edited February 19, 2020 by Christoph Stiepermann Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 20, 2020 9 hours ago, nutty nigel said: There's no evidence to say making them earlier, or not making them at all would have a positive effect either. In your opinion making them would have made a positive effect. I know that. But it doesn't mean your opinion is enough to suggest Farke has been wrong. But, just say you are right, and early subs bring about improved performances, we could use that to our advantage and back any team that makes a sub before the 70th minute to score the next goal in the game. If their opponent hasn't made a sub before 80 mins we can double down. Will we make a killing? No guarantees of success obviously, what we have seen is that our players often seem to tire after 70 mins and consistently making subs very late has left us at the bottom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,456 Posted February 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, Number9 said: No guarantees of success obviously, what we have seen is that our players often seem to tire after 70 mins and consistently making subs very late has left us at the bottom. Exactly. The idea that 'we can't guarantee it would help' is a strange one. What we can seemingly guarantee is what we're doing now does not help, so what is the harm in mixing it up? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,456 Posted February 20, 2020 8 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said: I agree. However, I don't think Jurgen Klopp or any other world class coach could take this team any further either .If you watch us play week in and week out and come to the conclusion that the head coach as the problem as opposed to our acute lack of athleticism, height, pace, running power, experience in defence and options up front then you must be completely blind. It's like watching a skilled fighter compete in a weight class a bit too big for them. In a different league like La Liga or the Bundesliga we would be okay, in this league we're just not athletic enough or good enough technically to compensate for it. You can't fix that on the training ground or with tactics/substitutions. I'm just hoping next time we get promoted the landscape of this league would have changed for the better. Hopefully the days of this league being clogged up by hoofball teams with the one so clever and so inventive tactic of 'defend deep and give it to the fast lads to run with' will be over and trying to play good, attacking football on the deck will be seen as the norm for most teams and not a futile, suicidal pipe dream like it is now. I think that is fair- I don't think if we changed coaches in November we'd be staying up. What is important from my perspective is that Farke learns from this experience and works on his squad and game management. He's still young and he's not perfect. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Number9 said: No guarantees of success obviously, what we have seen is that our players often seem to tire after 70 mins and consistently making subs very late has left us at the bottom. This isn't the point I was disagreeing with. I often find myself looking at the bench on 70 mins thinking a change may help. We all have opinions on what we'd do to improve our chances. The point I was disagreeing with, and is carrying on as a theme even today, is judging Farke's ability as a coach by how he measures up with "what we'd do". Just because we may do things differently doesn't mean Farke is "intransigent"or has taken the team as far as he can. We don't have access to any of the info he is using to make his decisions. The idea that Farke will learn on the job enough to finally be as good as his critics is ludicrous. Just because we don't understand what he does doesn't make us better coaches than him. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardhouse44 261 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: This isn't the point I was disagreeing with. I often find myself looking at the bench on 70 mins thinking a change may help. We all have opinions on what we'd do to improve our chances. The point I was disagreeing with, and is carrying on as a theme even today, is judging Farke's ability as a coach by how he measures up with "what we'd do". Just because we may do things differently doesn't mean Farke is "intransigent"or has taken the team as far as he can. We don't have access to any of the info he is using to make his decisions. The idea that Farke will learn on the job enough to finally be as good as his critics is ludicrous. Just because we don't understand what he does doesn't make us better coaches than him. That argument would stand up had we seen any evidence that he was making contrary decisions to our general thinking that brought a successful outcome! I am not sure he is though. The only thing I am sure of is that if I were the manager the team would be at the very worst no lower than the position Farke has achieved! Edited February 20, 2020 by Hardhouse44 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Hardhouse44 said: That argument would stand up had we seen any evidence that he was making contrary decisions to our general thinking that brought a successful outcome! I am not sure he is though. The only thing I am sure of is that if I were the manager the team would be at the very worst no lower than the position Farke has achieved! Yes we would. Because you would have sacked Farke September last season. Changed everything. And probably be in league one now🙃 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,316 Posted February 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: Yes we would. Because you would have sacked Farke September last season. Changed everything. And probably be in league one now🙃 You're playing Handball with a haystack again Nuttyo, fair play to ye. I really dont get where you find the energy to discuss topics that when you answer them, the reply is along the lines of " ah yes but, whatabout, if things were done differently, I cant prove this but I'm right anyway cos I know more than a man handpicked for the job" you deserve a knighthood chap. I'd take my hat off to you. But I'm sure someone would say that I'd be doing that wrong too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted February 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: Yes we would. Because you would have sacked Farke September last season. Changed everything. And probably be in league one now🙃 Mic drop Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardhouse44 261 Posted February 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: Yes we would. Because you would have sacked Farke September last season. Changed everything. And probably be in league one now🙃 So if Farke is so wonderful and we have, Godfrey, Cantwell, Lewis, Aarons, Pukki, Emi, And Mclean all interesting other premiership teams and the 2 new guys Duda and Rupp are also so awesome. Why are we the Joint lowest scorers and why have we conceded the 2nd joint most goals. Why have we only won 4 poxy games all season and why are the board so right for this club. Something has to be wrong somewhere. Or is it just a case of be happy with what you've got and dont challange the establishment. Hiel Hitler. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Hardhouse44 said: So if Farke is so wonderful and we have, Godfrey, Cantwell, Lewis, Aarons, Pukki, Emi, And Mclean all interesting other premiership teams and the 2 new guys Duda and Rupp are also so awesome. Why are we the Joint lowest scorers and why have we conceded the 2nd joint most goals. Why have we only won 4 poxy games all season and why are the board so right for this club. Something has to be wrong somewhere. Or is it just a case of be happy with what you've got and dont challange the establishment. Hiel Hitler. You're crazy bro.... Where's all that on this thread? Or is it all in your head? I'm a poet... And didn't know it🙃 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,316 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) Hh44..... Heil Hitler. Ha ha ha ha ha ha, you compare the fact that a club you happen to follow wont pay any attention to your opinion, to an administration that sent at least 6 million people to their deaths because of their ethnicity, religion or sexual preferences. Wow. Just wow. I know there is nothing like a bit of hyperbole to grab a headline but chap, that's I'll informed, childish and to quite a few, downright offensive. I hope your Jewish neighbours ( you may not know them , but I bet they're not far away) can forgive you . Or do I ? Edited February 20, 2020 by wcorkcanary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, nutty nigel said: This isn't the point I was disagreeing with. I often find myself looking at the bench on 70 mins thinking a change may help. We all have opinions on what we'd do to improve our chances. The point I was disagreeing with, and is carrying on as a theme even today, is judging Farke's ability as a coach by how he measures up with "what we'd do". Just because we may do things differently doesn't mean Farke is "intransigent"or has taken the team as far as he can. We don't have access to any of the info he is using to make his decisions. The idea that Farke will learn on the job enough to finally be as good as his critics is ludicrous. Just because we don't understand what he does doesn't make us better coaches than him. Judge Farke by the League position Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardhouse44 261 Posted February 20, 2020 23 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said: Hh44..... Heil Hitler. Ha ha ha ha ha ha, you compare the fact that a club you happen to follow wont pay any attention to your opinion, to an administration that sent at least 6 million people to their deaths because of their ethnicity, religion or sexual preferences. Wow. Just wow. I know there is nothing like a bit of hyperbole to grab a headline but chap, that's I'll informed, childish and to quite a few, downright offensive. I hope your Jewish neighbours ( you may not know them , but I bet they're not far away) can forgive you . Or do I ? Don't talk Bojjocks. Thanks to the brave guys who fought the the **** dictatorship I enjoy freedom of speach. However the only person who compared the situation to the above is you. And i can assure you my neighbourhood is nowhere near wealthy enough for the Jewish population to live in. You need to get a grip and stop taking yourself so seriously son. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer 1,547 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Hardhouse44 said: So if Farke is so wonderful and we have, Godfrey, Cantwell, Lewis, Aarons, Pukki, Emi, And Mclean all interesting other premiership teams and the 2 new guys Duda and Rupp are also so awesome. Why are we the Joint lowest scorers and why have we conceded the 2nd joint most goals. Why have we only won 4 poxy games all season and why are the board so right for this club. Something has to be wrong somewhere. Or is it just a case of be happy with what you've got and dont challange the establishment. Hiel Hitler. Perhaps this teams performance is because the players are not as good as you think they are? We may think they are great - and it’s true that they each have some wonderful attributes - but overall we have a team if not quite premier league quality / physicality players. Combined with key injuries and we are where we are. It was stated that NO bids were received for any of our players this past transfer window. Maybe the rumors were just that - and we can also stop worrying about a mass clear our in the Summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,352 Posted February 20, 2020 59 minutes ago, Number9 said: Judge Farke by the League position I think that's what we all do. I certainly don't judge him on some kind of arrogant idea that I could do better... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted February 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: I think that's what we all do. I certainly don't judge him on some kind of arrogant idea that I could do better... I also judge him on more than just League position. Because I like football. I also judge him on more than just part-way-through-one-season-league-position. I know, i'm crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hardhouse44 261 Posted February 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: I think that's what we all do. I certainly don't judge him on some kind of arrogant idea that I could do better... As do I. Not eveything is ment literally. Of course I don't profess to belive I am a professional football manger. But as a fan and as season ticket holder (and whether or not you think that counts for anything. If nothing else it shows the financial cost of following the team) I do reserve the right to judge the manager on the position we have achieved in the league. That in all seriousness is all I am doing. I believe Farke has his limitations and I believe those limitations have been vividly highlighted at this level. I am the first to admit we play nice football and that Farke did well in his second season to gain promotion. But I don't see him as some all powerful gift giving prophet. I honest belive the players we have that play the nice football would always play that football thats what they are. Lets hope we retain them so we can watch it again next season when it will result im sure in more success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 20, 2020 33 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: I think that's what we all do. I certainly don't judge him on some kind of arrogant idea that I could do better... So how is our League position affecting your judgement of Farke this season? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites