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TeemuVanBasten

Why doesn't Farke rate Vrancic?

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As per the title really. 

He's our most well rounded / all round centre midfielder in my opinion. 

And a goal threat from range... which we're desperate for. 

Or am I just wrong? 

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Unfortunately for him McLean and Tettey have been two of our top performers since he's been fit.

He can play #10 though, where we often saw him last season. 

He's opted put Duda straight into the side rather than give Vrancic a go. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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I think Vrancic is an excellent gifted player but it appears against a very fast paced team or an aggressive/physical one he sometimes doesn't perform as well as he can.  

I honestly thought Stiepermann would be a revelation this season with his often awkward style.

Shows what I know!

 

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2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I agree with your sentiment. I think he is our most creative passer in that position. 

Me too. His skills are sublime, playing  him is a double edged sword in the prem. In possession hes outstanding. Out of possession  , not so. We may have seen more of him if Amadou had  been the player we all hoped, granting Mario more freedom and less defensive duties. Lovely to watch, super set pieces, sublime close control, if he was more athletic  hed be at a top club. As the season moves into must go for it territory, perhaps Farke will include .Mario more . Hope so. 

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Unfortunately for him McLean and Tettey have been two of our top performers since he's been fit.

That may be so Double N and we look to have tightened up but draws or narrow defeats won't keep us up. And as I said on another thread, DF did say that the game was a free hit and we had nothing to lose. And it was obvious those two were cream crackered after all the work they had put in for an hour, most of the time without the ball and just running marking players.
 
He can play #10 though, where we often saw him last season. 
 
I would love to see Emi given a chance in that position or Todd failing that. We haven't replaced Marco, who may well be out of his depth in that position. in this league. Both those are the boys with the ability in and around the box

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34 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

He can play #10 though, where we often saw him last season

Can he? I haven’t looked back at actual stats but he very rarely played there from what I remember, and not particularly effective which is why Stiepermann was tried and claimed that place. So why would he be tried in a much tougher league in a position he’s not suited to?

The deep lying playmaker is his role but unfortunately he isn’t as strong as McLean and no where near as effective in the air or at reading and intercepting play. A very creative player but a bit of a luxury at this level that we can’t often afford.

Dont think it’s Farke not rating him but merely recognising his limitations, the difference in leagues and the other options we have combined with our adjusted way of playing.

In terms of the fans, it’s another instance of a player out of the side becoming world class

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It’s an equation he’s been trying to balance all season. 
 

if we put vrancic in we gain passing and creativity but we are less robust

 

Farke is just trying his best to get as many points as he can

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It's a real problem

Vrancic is an extremely gifted footballer. His pass for Teemu's disallowed goal against Spurs was superb.

BUT

He gives the ball away too often, & frequently in dangerous positions. You just cannot do that in the PL. You will get punished at least 4 times out of 5, & once a team realises you're vulnerable to giving the ball up easily you've had it. Much the same applies to Emi.

So the equation becomes: how much creativity do you gain vs how much security do you lose? Rupp or Emi?  Vrancic or Kenny? Tom or Alex?

 

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Where I sit I can see close up some of the midfield action at games.

Watching Duda yesterday it seemed to me the game was too quick for him. I guess that's the problem with January signings. Yesterday's game should have helped no end in getting him up to speed. I guess that's not ideal but it would be even less ideal to invest so much into a signing and have him sitting on the bench not getting up to speed.

Rupp seems to have adapted better but is not a match winner like Emi. I wonder if Emi is fit enough to start? 

Todd has been awesome. I still don't and never will get the continual criticism of his performance. Perhaps it's because he wears gloves!?! 

McLean would be the first on my teamsheet. He wins sooo many headers and makes sooo many interceptions. Wins us loads of free kicks in the midfield and is "the engine room". I just checked the stats for headers. Kenny has won 77 aerial battles. Next up is Byram with 43.

Tettey would be the player I would sacrifice for Vrancic, maybe after 60 mins. Not sure if I would have done that yesterday though.

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He had a shocking game at Man U (along with many others) and I think when he’s not on it it does make us a little easy to play through.

hsving said that if we are going to win games we need creativity and for me that means Vrancic and Buendia need to play a lot more for the rest of the season.

horses for courses really. Against the stronger sides we probably need a bit more steel in the midfield. For the home games we have left then Vrancic should be featuring quite often. 

 

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4 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

It's a real problem

Vrancic is an extremely gifted footballer. His pass for Teemu's disallowed goal against Spurs was superb.

BUT

He gives the ball away too often, & frequently in dangerous positions. You just cannot do that in the PL. You will get punished at least 4 times out of 5, & once a team realises you're vulnerable to giving the ball up easily you've had it. Much the same applies to Emi.

So the equation becomes: how much creativity do you gain vs how much security do you lose? Rupp or Emi?  Vrancic or Kenny? Tom or Alex?

 

We gave the ball away about 15 times in dangerous positions yesterday. Sometimes you need the players with the technical ability to receive the ball under pressure. 

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What about Godfey alongside Maclean then Double N? And Todd Vrancic Buendia in front? Why do our middle three have to be tough or robust. Let the opposition worry about that.

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6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

McLean would be the first on my teamsheet.

Don’t know about first but he’s so important to the team and massively undervalued and unappreciated by the fans. Was statistically the most effective header/interceptor and tackler of the deep lying playmakers last season yet was overshadowed by Vrancics impact towards the end. Those few games seem to be the basis for Vrancic deserving to start in the PL

Edited by Fiery Zac

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3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What about Godfey alongside Maclean then Double N? And Todd Vrancic Buendia in front? Why do our middle three have to be tough or robust. Let the opposition worry about that.

The same reason every other PL team have players who don't give the ball away easily.

 

Edited by ron obvious

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3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What about Godfey alongside Maclean then Double N? And Todd Vrancic Buendia in front? Why do our middle three have to be tough or robust. Let the opposition worry about that.

I'd play McLean and a combination of Tettey or Vrancic. (prob start with Tettey for most games)

then

Buendia Duda Cantwell

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I'd play McLean and a combination of Tettey or Vrancic. (prob start with Tettey for most games)

then

Buendia Duda Cantwell

Not sure if McLean and vrancic have played together at cdm but it's well worth a try ,it would be harsh on tettey though but we do need creativity otbc😄

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We gave the ball away about 15 times in dangerous positions yesterday. Sometimes you need the players with the technical ability to receive the ball under pressure. 

And that was due to lack of technical ability? Rather than Liverpool players being stronger & quicker?

And yet we didn't concede until the 72nd minute. I guarantee you we would have conceded long before that with Mario & Emi in the team.

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We play our best football with Vrancic and Buendia on the pitch.

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I imagine we will see more of Vrancic with home games upcoming I.e not against the best team in the world.

I'd be disappointed if not because if we want to take the game to teams he is an important player. Equally, away from home and against a team like Liverpool I can see exactly why he can't get in.

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His performance away at Burnley in the cup was awesome - a masterclass. Taking that into account and his match winning performances last season and you do wonder why he doesn't get more minutes.  We need his goals and his composure, which is the best in the club imo (apart from maybe Pukki when on form) and we need his free kicks at which he is also the best at the club. He makes time on the ball and I disagree that he gives the ball away any more than some of the others....they have all been guilty of that this season, Maclean, Buendia and Cantwell in particular.

He was the difference last season when things got tight. We probably wouldn't have beaten Leeds away, we wouldn't have got that draw against Sheff Wed, the goal of the season against Blackburn and we wouldn't have won away at Villa for the title - and there are more instances.

In the few minutes he has had this season he has shown signs of his superb ability - his pass against Spurs was sublime. Class tells and he has class.   So he had a bad game against Manutd, so did they all - collectively they gave in to the pressure that day. 

Get him in the team and imo we will start getting that bit of luck we have been lacking - he has that little bit of something that can change the course of a match. If fully fit, he should be in the team imo.

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Vrancic absolutely ran the show against a largely starting Burnley 11 in the cup, so he can definitely play against the more ‘physical’ sides. Hope to see more of him in these last 12 games as sadly I have a feeling he may move on this summer.

Talking of which, I wonder whatever happened to Mo Leitner, it’s like he doesn’t even exist anymore...

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And yet we didn't concede until the 72nd minute. I guarantee you we would have conceded long before that with Mario & Emi in the team.

Yes and that could have just  been Liverpool's equaliser if Emi and Mario had played

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

And that was due to lack of technical ability? Rather than Liverpool players being stronger & quicker?

And yet we didn't concede until the 72nd minute. I guarantee you we would have conceded long before that with Mario & Emi in the team.

What a strange conclusion to draw when you consider that Buendea tops the list of tackles made in our team, he brings plenty of defensive ability to the starting 11. Just maybe we would have remained as defensively strong with him on the pitch but also actually had some threat going forwards 

edit: in fact Buendea rates at 19th in the PL for tackles made, 3rd for assists and 2nd for chances created. I’d say he would have been far better used on the pitch than on the bench..

Edited by JF

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2 minutes ago, JF said:

What a strange conclusion to draw when you consider that Buendea tops the list of tackles made in our team, he brings plenty of defensive ability to the starting 11. Just maybe we would have remained as defensively strong with him on the pitch but also actually had some threat going forwards 

Unfortunately I've also seen him lose the ball, throw himself to the floor & beat the ground in frustration that he hasn't been given a foul. All too often.

He's a breathtaking talent, wonderfully gifted footballer, but he has weaknesses that PL teams are wily enough to exploit.

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6 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Unfortunately I've also seen him lose the ball, throw himself to the floor & beat the ground in frustration that he hasn't been given a foul. All too often.

He's a breathtaking talent, wonderfully gifted footballer, but he has weaknesses that PL teams are wily enough to exploit.

Every player loses the ball! But just to throw another stat in, Buendea tops our list of passes completed and is 50th in the PL. 

so in conclusion he’s our highest rated passer, tackling, assists and chances created. And last season we didn’t win a match without him in the team.

Edited by JF

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55 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

His performance away at Burnley in the cup was awesome - a masterclass. Taking that into account and his match winning performances last season and you do wonder why he doesn't get more minutes.  We need his goals and his composure, which is the best in the club imo (apart from maybe Pukki when on form) and we need his free kicks at which he is also the best at the club. He makes time on the ball and I disagree that he gives the ball away any more than some of the others....they have all been guilty of that this season, Maclean, Buendia and Cantwell in particular.

He was the difference last season when things got tight. We probably wouldn't have beaten Leeds away, we wouldn't have got that draw against Sheff Wed, the goal of the season against Blackburn and we wouldn't have won away at Villa for the title - and there are more instances.

In the few minutes he has had this season he has shown signs of his superb ability - his pass against Spurs was sublime. Class tells and he has class.   So he had a bad game against Manutd, so did they all - collectively they gave in to the pressure that day. 

Get him in the team and imo we will start getting that bit of luck we have been lacking - he has that little bit of something that can change the course of a match. If fully fit, he should be in the team imo.

Tl;dr - looking at his good points and ignoring the bad, he should be playing.

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I love Vrancic and he is a great player to watch - I defended him when many on here were criticising him when he first arrived. I don't think that Farke's preference for McLean in the deeper lying midfield position is because he doesn't rate him, but due to the needs of team balance.

Although Mario is a more creative player, I think McLean is stronger, a better athlete and more dynamic. Similar issues with Leitner really. Perhaps if we had better and stronger athletes in other positions, we'd be able to play one or other of them. TBH though, I prefer Vrancic - lovely player.

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1 hour ago, Fiery Zac said:

Can he? I haven’t looked back at actual stats but he very rarely played there from what I remember, and not particularly effective which is why Stiepermann was tried and claimed that place. So why would he be tried in a much tougher league in a position he’s not suited to?

The deep lying playmaker is his role but unfortunately he isn’t as strong as McLean and no where near as effective in the air or at reading and intercepting play. A very creative player but a bit of a luxury at this level that we can’t often afford.

Dont think it’s Farke not rating him but merely recognising his limitations, the difference in leagues and the other options we have combined with our adjusted way of playing.

In terms of the fans, it’s another instance of a player out of the side becoming world class

Agree with this - Vrancic is way too open defensively - even last year he was only used when we needed something. 

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