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Rupp and Duda

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10 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

You've never seen a top class striker miss from there? You haven't watched must football then.

It's not impossible to miss from that position, we saw that on Saturday, we can safely say that he should have scored. 

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19 hours ago, ron obvious said:

My point was that Rupp's passing option would have been a whole lot easier if Teemu had run that little bit wider. Being so close meant Rupp had to weigh his pass absolutely perfectly.

 

 

Pukki was running towards the goal through the straightest route possible, because he had to outrun the fastest player on Liverpool team (Gomez) on his LEFT. Rupp ended up a little bit too close to the goalkeeper, who was positioned close to perfection. Right in the middle of two defenders running towards him, blocking effectively Rupp's straight shot. In the top right image Pukki had just started to push left to widen the angle - having somehow managed to outrun Gomez - when Rupp noticed him. Rupp realised in the bottom left image that he was in a much worse position to get a shot at the goal than Pukki and tried to give him a short pass. It was too weak, but not *that* weak. It is evidenced by the amazing reach of the £60M Alisson Becker in bottom right corner. Against practically any other goalkeeper Pukki would have just about received the ball, by which time the two defenders would have just about narrowed the right angle to the goal, leaving possibly half of the goal free. Pukki would have put it in, but even that wouldn't have been 100%. More like 90%.

Also it was offside anyway.

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpool.thumb.jpg.5bcfb55d8d64ff767352a4031c509ef2.jpg

 

 

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpoolOffside.jpg

Edited by Upo

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14 minutes ago, Upo said:

 

Pukki was running towards the goal through the straightest route possible, because he had to outrun the fastest player on Liverpool team (Gomez) on his LEFT. Rupp ended up a little bit too close to the goalkeeper, who was positioned close to perfection. Right in the middle of two defenders running towards him, blocking effectively Rupp's straight shot. In the top right image Pukki had just started to push left to widen the angle - having somehow managed to outrun Gomez - when Rupp noticed him. Rupp realised in the bottom left image that he was in a much worse position to get a shot at the goal than Pukki and tried to give him a short pass. It was too weak, but not *that* weak. It is evidenced by the amazing reach of the £60M Alisson Becker in bottom right corner. Against practically any other goalkeeper Pukki would have just about received the ball, by which time the two defenders would have just about narrowed the right angle to the goal, leaving possibly half of the goal free. Pukki would have put it in, but even that wouldn't have been 100%. More like 90%.

Also it was offside anyway.

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpool.thumb.jpg.5bcfb55d8d64ff767352a4031c509ef2.jpg

 

 

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpoolOffside.jpg

 

That's a very detailed analysis, but I think it is flawed.

I've just watched the replay again, frame by frame, & Gomez is slowing down & heading for Rupp. He almost seems to have given up - decided he can't catch Rupp & Alisson  will have to save the shot. Teemu running a yard wider would not have significantly affected his beating Gomez, even if Gomez followed him, because his trajectory would have to match Pukki.

It's tiny margins, decisions made in a split second, but a yard wider from Pukki & he'd have been running onto the path of a ball Rupp could have hit harder & avoided Alisson. If Alisson had tried to cover Pukki's run Rupp would have had a much easier shot.

As for the offside, VAR would probably have disallowed it, but it would've been another Vrancic-Pukki moment a la Spurs.

 

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If you look at in motion and not just frame by frame, it gives you better clarity on momentum. Rupp made a bad pass. But it wasn't that bad of a pass. Becker is a superior goalkeeper. Do you see his lunge? It is insane.

But it was offside and what we're talking about is educational aspects for future reference. Quite interesting to analyze these by the way. I actually thought myself that Pukki was a little close before replaying it made it easier to take Gomez into account.

I disagree firmly with comparison with getting VARed vs Tottenham. Totally different. I put the lines in the most favorable timing and position possible for Norwich and still it was clearly offside. Against Tottenham in Pukki's situation it was within margin of error, far far short of clear and obvious. If it had been allowed, we'd barely hear a protest. It was a big mistake. Getting offside here is absolutely clear with zero qualifications.

Edited by Upo

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Rupp's arm (pointing to where he wanted McLean to put the ball - what a pass, by the way!) is outstretched way beyond the last defender.  It looks like his feet are onside - like Pukki's were v Spurs - but there's no doubt he'd have been given offside for where his arm is, which is a ridiculous interpretation of the offside rule.

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4 hours ago, Woodman said:

Rupp's arm (pointing to where he wanted McLean to put the ball - what a pass, by the way!) is outstretched way beyond the last defender.  It looks like his feet are onside - like Pukki's were v Spurs - but there's no doubt he'd have been given offside for where his arm is, which is a ridiculous interpretation of the offside rule.

Your arm can’t be offside, you can’t score with your arm. Which means the Stockley Park goon squad have to draw dodgy lines so they can include an armpit....

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23 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Pukki's position meant he gave Alisson a chance to save it - unless Rupp hit it harder, pushing Teemu wide & allowing the defence to get back at him.

 

Yep, wouldn't have thought I'd be criticising  Pukkis  movement,  but he didnt  ' move out to move in,' he just moved in,  therefore denying rupp space into which to play  the ball.  It all just got too crowded  allowing Allison to pounce. 

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Please help me understand two things. From 1:10 to 1:18.

1. At which point and by what means do you suggest Pukki should have "moved out to move in"?

2. How was Pukki denying Rupp space?

To my eyes it looks like Pukki was running fast along the optimal track - after having gone "wide" - to receive the ball and to keep going along the shortest possible trajectory towards the goal, but it was the combination of Rupp's weakish passing (direction was just right) and Becker being Becker that denied the opportunity.

The pass by McLean was brilliant. Just brilliant. What an eye the man has.

Also it was offside.

 

 

Edited by Upo

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There's an awful lot of chat about it, the bottom line is Rupp should have scored. The bare minimum expected there was  shot on target. 

It's like you're arguing about the exact positioning of the musicians as the Titanic is going down. 

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2 hours ago, Upo said:

Please help me understand two things. From 1:10 to 1:18.

1. At which point and by what means do you suggest Pukki should have "moved out to move in"?

2. How was Pukki denying Rupp space?

To my eyes it looks like Pukki was running fast along the optimal track - after having gone "wide" - to receive the ball and to keep going along the shortest possible trajectory towards the goal, but it was the combination of Rupp's weakish passing (direction was just right) and Becker being Becker that denied the opportunity.

The pass by McLean was brilliant. Just brilliant. What an eye the man has.

Also it was offside.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Upo said:

Please help me understand two things. From 1:10 to 1:18.

1. At which point and by what means do you suggest Pukki should have "moved out to move in"?

2. How was Pukki denying Rupp space?

To my eyes it looks like Pukki was running fast along the optimal track - after having gone "wide" - to receive the ball and to keep going along the shortest possible trajectory towards the goal, but it was the combination of Rupp's weakish passing (direction was just right) and Becker being Becker that denied the opportunity.

The pass by McLean was brilliant. Just brilliant. What an eye the man has.

Also it was offside.

 

 

1.From 1:12 to 1:14, Pukki , as you say, heads towards goal. In my opinion, to give Rupp maximum help, he should have pulled further to the left by a couple of yards, therefore  presenting Becker with another attack angle to consider .

2.He didnt deny Rupp space, he denied him space into which he could have delivered a better square ball for Pukki to finish. Its quite simple really. 

 

If players run straight towards goal, they are much easier to mark, Pukki has generally been exemplary in his movement, in this case however, he wasnt.

'Moving out in order to move in' is as fundamental a tactic as a centre half dropping off a yard or two in order to properly attack a headed ball.

Heading straight for goal en mass , denies angles for passes and finishes, playground stuff.

 

Edited by wcorkcanary
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On 19/02/2020 at 15:05, wcorkcanary said:

1.From 1:12 to 1:14, Pukki , as you say, heads towards goal. In my opinion, to give Rupp maximum help, he should have pulled further to the left by a couple of yards, therefore  presenting Becker with another attack angle to consider .

2.He didnt deny Rupp space, he denied him space into which he could have delivered a better square ball for Pukki to finish. Its quite simple really. 

If players run straight towards goal, they are much easier to mark, Pukki has generally been exemplary in his movement, in this case however, he wasnt.

'Moving out in order to move in' is as fundamental a tactic as a centre half dropping off a yard or two in order to properly attack a headed ball.

Heading straight for goal en mass , denies angles for passes and finishes, playground stuff.

 

 

Gomez was to his left and prevented Pukki from turning left. If Pukki hadn't run straight towards the goal, Gomez would have ended  between Rupp and Pukki. If pukki had circled further out to give Rupp more space, half of the Liverpool team would be now between Pukki and the goal by the time Pukki got the ball.

It was a good idea by Rupp and McLean, which failed at two points, first when Rupp was careless with his positioning making it offside, and second, when Rupp put too little power into his final pass. The latter now I think was because he had lost momentum catching the ball. Pukki at no point was in a position to influence the outcome.

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16 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

In all honesty neither have much to offer and they are worse than we already had.

If I was Vrancic I'd want out.

They were not at their best today. It was Duda though, who to my eyes underperformed. He had a few substandard passes.

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19 hours ago, Upo said:

They were not at their best today. It was Duda though, who to my eyes underperformed. He had a few substandard passes.

I missed the game where Duda apparently played well.  I've seen each and every one of his other performances, and to say I'm underwhelmed is an understatement.

There is precisely zero chance he will start the next game after that last showing.  Was pathetic.

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Duda is giving us nothing that Stiepermann wouldn't and in my view a lot less creativity than having Emi in the team does.

As I've said in another thread, Rupp is tidy enough but is in danger of becoming the fall guy with fans for Farke's exclusion of certain players which would be a bit unfair but will be down to Farke if it happens.

Play our best creative players and give players like Mario and Onel (who we will need next season) a go because these two January recruits have not improved us one iota in my book. 

We had zero pace to worry wolves on the break yesterday.

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39 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Duda is giving us nothing that Stiepermann wouldn't and in my view a lot less creativity than having Emi in the team does.

As I've said in another thread, Rupp is tidy enough but is in danger of becoming the fall guy with fans for Farke's exclusion of certain players which would be a bit unfair but will be down to Farke if it happens.

I agree in general but i'm not 100% sure it's Farkes responsibility to cater for our fans being thick as sh*t

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47 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Duda is giving us nothing that Stiepermann wouldn't and in my view a lot less creativity than having Emi in the team does.

As I've said in another thread, Rupp is tidy enough but is in danger of becoming the fall guy with fans for Farke's exclusion of certain players which would be a bit unfair but will be down to Farke if it happens.

Play our best creative players and give players like Mario and Onel (who we will need next season) a go because these two January recruits have not improved us one iota in my book. 

We had zero pace to worry wolves on the break yesterday.

Onel still out & may require surgery.

Looked terrific when he came back after injury - strong as a little ox, quick, agile, just what we'd been crying out for. The next game he'd changed completely, hesitant & unwilling to take players on. Been much the same ever since.

Really worried he's got a serious problem that he never really recovered from.

 

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On 18/02/2020 at 11:32, Upo said:

 

Pukki was running towards the goal through the straightest route possible, because he had to outrun the fastest player on Liverpool team (Gomez) on his LEFT. Rupp ended up a little bit too close to the goalkeeper, who was positioned close to perfection. Right in the middle of two defenders running towards him, blocking effectively Rupp's straight shot. In the top right image Pukki had just started to push left to widen the angle - having somehow managed to outrun Gomez - when Rupp noticed him. Rupp realised in the bottom left image that he was in a much worse position to get a shot at the goal than Pukki and tried to give him a short pass. It was too weak, but not *that* weak. It is evidenced by the amazing reach of the £60M Alisson Becker in bottom right corner. Against practically any other goalkeeper Pukki would have just about received the ball, by which time the two defenders would have just about narrowed the right angle to the goal, leaving possibly half of the goal free. Pukki would have put it in, but even that wouldn't have been 100%. More like 90%.

Also it was offside anyway.

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpool.thumb.jpg.5bcfb55d8d64ff767352a4031c509ef2.jpg

 

 

RuppPuggiSequenceLiverpoolOffside.jpg

Rupp could've dummied the pass and scored an open goal. I think buendia would've scored....

Edited by Ward 3

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Rupp in statistics so far....

  • 77% pass completion- 3rd worst amongst outfield players with more than one start this season)
  • Dispossessed 1.4 times a game- 4th worst
  • 0.6 shots per game- level with Hanley and less than such attacking forces as Alex Tettey or Sam Byram.
  • 25 passes per game on average- 16th best in the team.
  • Tackle per game- 0.6, 19th best in the squad.
  • Dribbled past 2 times per game- 3rd worst in the squad.
  • Overall whoscored rating of 6.15- lower than any outfield player with more than one start this season.
  • 0.8 key passes a game- 5th best in the squad

From those, it strikes me that we're getting all the negatives of players like Cantwell/Buendia from Rupp (getting dispossessed, players running past you), none of the real creativity (fewer key passes than Emi or Todd, no assists, no goals, barely any shots) and none of the defensive solidarity a player like him is supposed to bring.

What is not to love?

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26 minutes ago, king canary said:

Rupp in statistics so far....

  • 77% pass completion- 3rd worst amongst outfield players with more than one start this season)
  • Dispossessed 1.4 times a game- 4th worst
  • 0.6 shots per game- level with Hanley and less than such attacking forces as Alex Tettey or Sam Byram.
  • 25 passes per game on average- 16th best in the team.
  • Tackle per game- 0.6, 19th best in the squad.
  • Dribbled past 2 times per game- 3rd worst in the squad.
  • Overall whoscored rating of 6.15- lower than any outfield player with more than one start this season.
  • 0.8 key passes a game- 5th best in the squad

From those, it strikes me that we're getting all the negatives of players like Cantwell/Buendia from Rupp (getting dispossessed, players running past you), none of the real creativity (fewer key passes than Emi or Todd, no assists, no goals, barely any shots) and none of the defensive solidarity a player like him is supposed to bring.

What is not to love?

What site are you using - would be interested to see Duda's?

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Rupp looks like a half decent Championship central midfielder being played out of position on the wing.

Edited by Hoola Han Solo

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I think some of you should lay off Rupp a little. The blokes been here just a matter of weeks, has been in a side that’s won 2 in 6 (Bournemouth, Burnley) and had very tough games in his introduction to life in another country - Liverpool, Wolves and Tottenham - my point being is it’s not his fault that it takes a little time to adapt from the Bundesliga to the Premier League, that’s pretty standard for most players arriving from another country. Mario took a little while and after settling in, I think he’s been great for us when he plays, and I only wish he was in the side now. And regardless, it’s not like Rupp’s single handedly not playing at his best, at least he has a valid excuse compared to some of our ‘favourites’. Embarrassing to see City supporters steaming into someone so quickly who in actual fact hasn’t really been any worse than anyone else in the scheme of things. A scapegoat because Emi’s not playing I suspect.

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18 hours ago, king canary said:

Rupp in statistics so far....

  • 77% pass completion- 3rd worst amongst outfield players with more than one start this season)
  • Dispossessed 1.4 times a game- 4th worst
  • 0.6 shots per game- level with Hanley and less than such attacking forces as Alex Tettey or Sam Byram.
  • 25 passes per game on average- 16th best in the team.
  • Tackle per game- 0.6, 19th best in the squad.
  • Dribbled past 2 times per game- 3rd worst in the squad.
  • Overall whoscored rating of 6.15- lower than any outfield player with more than one start this season.
  • 0.8 key passes a game- 5th best in the squad

From those, it strikes me that we're getting all the negatives of players like Cantwell/Buendia from Rupp (getting dispossessed, players running past you), none of the real creativity (fewer key passes than Emi or Todd, no assists, no goals, barely any shots) and none of the defensive solidarity a player like him is supposed to bring.

What is not to love?

They're worse stats than what i've watched - your conclusion is obviously correct but bar Sunday i've generally thought he looked tidy and helped Aarons out defensively. 

Clearly the stats somewhat disagree with that!

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Just checked out the ‘WhoScored’ website, makes interesting reading. 2 players who have split opinion amongst supporters so far - well, Duda is apparently our 2nd best player this season, Hanley who I think has been decent since getting back into the team, 8th. Now Duda looks like a player trying to find his way in the Premier League, again understandable as new to the style of the Premier League as well as this country, but it’s a good example why you shouldn’t rank players on whether they’re decent or not just on stats - not wanting to knock the guy as it’s not my style, but are we really saying he’s been overall better than the likes of Cantwell, Pukki, Krul etc? I don’t think so.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

They're worse stats than what i've watched - your conclusion is obviously correct but bar Sunday i've generally thought he looked tidy and helped Aarons out defensively. 

Clearly the stats somewhat disagree with that!

Yeah, this is where I think stats play a good part in assessing someone. 

To my eye, I've been unimpressed but I know I have my own biases. In this case I think the stats generally back up what I'm seeing but in other cases they haven't which has made me take another look at a player.

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30 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Just checked out the ‘WhoScored’ website, makes interesting reading. 2 players who have split opinion amongst supporters so far - well, Duda is apparently our 2nd best player this season, Hanley who I think has been decent since getting back into the team, 8th. Now Duda looks like a player trying to find his way in the Premier League, again understandable as new to the style of the Premier League as well as this country, but it’s a good example why you shouldn’t rank players on whether they’re decent or not just on stats - not wanting to knock the guy as it’s not my style, but are we really saying he’s been overall better than the likes of Cantwell, Pukki, Krul etc? I don’t think so.

There is definitely a limitation from what stats alone tell you. I personally like to combine my own thoughts with them to try and create a clearer picture.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

There is definitely a limitation from what stats alone tell you. I personally like to combine my own thoughts with them to try and create a clearer picture.

Totally agree there, Kingo. I think the thing with Rupp is we know he’s absolutely nothing like Emi who is just mercurial on the ball when he’s ‘on it’. From what I’ve seen of Rupp, he appears to be more neat and tidy in his style, everyone was awful at Wolves come 90mins (maybe not Krul?), but bar the underhit pass to Pukki against Liverpool I thought he was good in that game and against Bournemouth. Unfortunately, as we saw last season when Cantwell filled in during Emi’s suspension, the supporters tend to get a bit annoyed with who Farke selects in ‘Emi’s place’. But I too would like to see Emi return though. Hopefully, if I’m reading the Emi exclusion situation correctly, Emi will take his mentors comments on board, take stock, and think ‘I will show him! (in a good way!)’. Leicester at home under the floodlights is made for him, he’s got to get that opening goal sooner or later, he’s too talented not to!

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I'm like that. If stats don't rate a player I like them I ignore them but if they can back up my informed opinion then I trot them out....

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4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I'm like that. If stats don't rate a player I like them I ignore them but if they can back up my informed opinion then I trot them out....

Haha, you do see that a lot, it’s very true, Eddie. They make for some interesting reading at times, but there’s no better way to truly judge a player than by watching them on Grefstad’s 165’’ TV

  • Haha 2

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