BroadstairsR 2,138 Posted February 4, 2020 For as long as I remember I have always been against capital punishment ... thinking it to be medieval. Why was I pleased then when I heard that the Streathem stabber was shot dead by police. It amounts to the same thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,710 Posted February 4, 2020 Trouble is this scumbag wanted to die as a martyr. So keeping him rotting in jail would have been worse for him. It does scare me how easy it is to manipulate and warp people's ideals through a steady stream of lies, misinformation and straight forward propaganda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cornish sam 942 Posted February 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Herman said: Trouble is this scumbag wanted to die as a martyr. So keeping him rotting in jail would have been worse for him. It does scare me how easy it is to manipulate and warp people's ideals through a steady stream of lies, misinformation and straight forward propaganda. But if it's that easy to manipulate people's ideas why aren't we doing that to deradicalise them? The prison system in this country is not working. Prison should be a place for rehabilitation, not just somewhere to stick people "to rot" for a few years then hope they come out and don't do it again. Recidivism is on the rise and in a lot of cases people who go in for something minor come out and far worse than when they go in. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
East Rider 548 Posted February 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, Herman said: Trouble is this scumbag wanted to die as a martyr. So keeping him rotting in jail would have been worse for him. It does scare me how easy it is to manipulate and warp people's ideals through a steady stream of lies, misinformation and straight forward propaganda. And there is the problem. Under our system he would have been free to spread hate inside and undoubtedly would have been released early again into society at some point, to do worse next time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fiery Zac 1,066 Posted February 4, 2020 It’s weird the OP is titled ‘dilemna’ as that’s the incorrect spelling and always has been, yet it’s a conversation I’ve had more than once that I’m sure that’s how i was taught to spell it. There’s no evidence or history of the word being spelt that way (nothing in books/texts) but it seems quite a few people are convinced that’s the correct spelling. Spooky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fuzzar 1,702 Posted February 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said: It’s weird the OP is titled ‘dilemna’ as that’s the incorrect spelling and always has been, yet it’s a conversation I’ve had more than once that I’m sure that’s how i was taught to spell it. There’s no evidence or history of the word being spelt that way (nothing in books/texts) but it seems quite a few people are convinced that’s the correct spelling. Spooky. Yup, it's dilemma. The above spelling puts me in a really difficult situation. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Moss 2,165 Posted February 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, Herman said: Trouble is this scumbag wanted to die as a martyr. Nail on head. The problem is that jail is utterly useless, unless it’s life and they are therefore prevented from doing exactly the same thing again, as you simply can’t rehabilitate them, it’s not how it works in this case - they have their beliefs and dying as a martyr is actually exactly what they want and expect when they carry out these attacks, going to ‘paradise’ is the primary goal once they’ve served their duty - a big reason why they arm themselves with fake explosives is they know it’ll ensure they’re taken out there and then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,615 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, cornish sam said: But if it's that easy to manipulate people's ideas why aren't we doing that to deradicalise them? The prison system in this country is not working. Prison should be a place for rehabilitation, not just somewhere to stick people "to rot" for a few years then hope they come out and don't do it again. Recidivism is on the rise and in a lot of cases people who go in for something minor come out and far worse than when they go in. Speak to Police Officers, who regularly arrest the same people, go to prison, have £1000's invested in rehabilitation which they only go ahead with because they know they'll get early release, then go and do the same thing as soon as they're released and repeat! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,531 Posted February 4, 2020 The spelling of "dilemma" with an 'n' is nothing of a faux pas when considering other language abberations such as the use of "of" as in "could of". You see it written and hear it everywhere, on TV, internet and the radio too, even on radio 4. It's meaningless, yet it is deemed as acceptable because so many people use it. Paled against that, using an 'n' in dilemna is a minor misdemeanour, has been in use for hundreds of years and if "could of" has been deemed acceptable after just a few years, then I will carry on using an 'n' in dilemna without any sense of impropriety. "Could of", though, should be banned, picked up on whenever used in print or in the spoken word, the instigator taken to task and ostricised - fined or sent on a course in the use of the English language. It is one if the biggest sign of a drop in standards and a dumbing down of our magnificent language. So ignore the spelling police, broadstairs, in the field of English, it is but a miniscule indiscretion compared to using "of" wrongly. DilemNa, dilemNa, dilemNa!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,531 Posted February 4, 2020 Oh and on the topic of the thread, I can feel no pleasure in what happened and the officers involved had no choice. If I feel anything it is for them. Pride that they had the courage to do what they did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cornish sam 942 Posted February 4, 2020 21 minutes ago, hogesar said: Speak to Police Officers, who regularly arrest the same people, go to prison, have £1000's invested in rehabilitation which they only go ahead with because they know they'll get early release, then go and do the same thing as soon as they're released and repeat! Then that's not rehabilitation. Prisons don't have the funding or the sociatal support to actually rehabilitate. In this country (and most others being fair) prison sentences are treated as a punishment first and a means to rehabilitate second. Most people do have the capacity to become better members of society, but, the rehabilitation doesn't stop when they get out, if they can't then integrate into society in a meaningful way then they are likely to fall back into their own habits. What is needed is a step change in people's attitude towards consequences for breaking laws (and the funding to back it up). In the specific case of radicalisation though, for those saying that this kind of outcome is inevitable because of their religious beliefs, they are buying into the problem. There are plenty of "moderates" and the extreme views are harboured by a very small percentage, surround the extremes with moderating influences and that will soften or at least isolate the risks, put them in a prison surrounded by other extremists and they will magnify each others position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cornish sam 942 Posted February 4, 2020 Just to add, whenever someone is killed by another human, it should not be a cause for celebration or justification, it is a sign of a failure. Rather than lauding the people that have doubtless saved lives through their actions we should be lamenting the fact that society had let the perpetrator get into that mental state in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 4,866 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, lake district canary said: The spelling of "dilemma" with an 'n' is nothing of a faux pas when considering other language abberations such as the use of "of" as in "could of". You see it written and hear it everywhere, on TV, internet and the radio too, even on radio 4. It's meaningless, yet it is deemed as acceptable because so many people use it. Paled against that, using an 'n' in dilemna is a minor misdemeanour, has been in use for hundreds of years and if "could of" has been deemed acceptable after just a few years, then I will carry on using an 'n' in dilemna without any sense of impropriety. "Could of", though, should be banned, picked up on whenever used in print or in the spoken word, the instigator taken to task and ostricised - fined or sent on a course in the use of the English language. It is one if the biggest sign of a drop in standards and a dumbing down of our magnificent language. So ignore the spelling police, broadstairs, in the field of English, it is but a miniscule indiscretion compared to using "of" wrongly. DilemNa, dilemNa, dilemNa!!! 'Could of' should carry a sentence of 30 years at Portman Road. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,710 Posted February 4, 2020 3 hours ago, cornish sam said: But if it's that easy to manipulate people's ideas why aren't we doing that to deradicalise them? The prison system in this country is not working. Prison should be a place for rehabilitation, not just somewhere to stick people "to rot" for a few years then hope they come out and don't do it again. Recidivism is on the rise and in a lot of cases people who go in for something minor come out and far worse than when they go in. I agree with your opinion entirely. What I was clumsily pointing out was that killing someone who is quite happy to be killed is neither a deterrent or a way to fix this problem. With swingeing cuts and cost cutting measures the prison and justice systems are in a terrible state. Rehab and deradicalisation are effective but expensive tools, hence they do not get used as much. What we need is proper funding and thinking about the problems. What we'll get is some populist knee jerk reaction which will come back to bite us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 4, 2020 2 hours ago, lake district canary said: The spelling of "dilemma" with an 'n' is nothing of a faux pas when considering other language abberations such as the use of "of" as in "could of". You see it written and hear it everywhere, on TV, internet and the radio too, even on radio 4. It's meaningless, yet it is deemed as acceptable because so many people use it. Paled against that, using an 'n' in dilemna is a minor misdemeanour, has been in use for hundreds of years and if "could of" has been deemed acceptable after just a few years, then I will carry on using an 'n' in dilemna without any sense of impropriety. "Could of", though, should be banned, picked up on whenever used in print or in the spoken word, the instigator taken to task and ostricised - fined or sent on a course in the use of the English language. It is one if the biggest sign of a drop in standards and a dumbing down of our magnificent language. So ignore the spelling police, broadstairs, in the field of English, it is but a miniscule indiscretion compared to using "of" wrongly. DilemNa, dilemNa, dilemNa!!! You'd probably need an upper case B in Broadstairs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted February 4, 2020 I believe he was shot as he appeared to be wearing an explosive vest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Christoph Stiepermann 1,131 Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) When i read the news I'm often struck by how bafflingly lenient so many sentences are. I'm not interested in rehabilitation programmes or reintegration back into society. Prison should be used as a deterrent to protect the public and currently it's not working. If found guilty of any terror related offences you should be detained indefinitely, anyone who intentionally murders someone should never be freed under any circumstance. OT but some sentences are disgustingly lenient though, dangerous driving offenses in particular. I was reading something the other day that said basically you can take drugs at a party, drive like a total w4nker, like so many ignorant, stupid d1ckheads do nowdays, end up in a collision that leaves innocent people with debilitating and life changing injuries and only end up serving 2 years in jail, during which time you'll be well looked after and then free to go back on your merry way while the victims end up paying for it their whole lives often with limited or no access to help or compensation. Really boils my p155 Edited February 4, 2020 by Christoph Stiepermann 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,324 Posted February 4, 2020 How about stopping them entering the country in the first place? Problem then doesn't occur. And because they are mostly the second generation that becomes radicalised, then stop them at the first generation from coming unless they commit to integration and assimilation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BroadstairsR 2,138 Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) The spelling of "dilemma" with an 'n' is nothing of a faux pas when considering other language abberations such as the use of "of" as in "could of". There was a debate about this a few years ago when my (apparently) incorrect spelling was used this way in the Times crossword and it threw a lot of contributors. The compiler used 'dilemna' and it was made worse as it was prize day. I'll stick to what I was taught at school. That apart there are a lot of agreeable points made about the latest terrorist animal. Whoever makes the decision to release these people back into society needs questioning. Now innocents are ruined for life. Thank goodness he is too. My biggest mistake was having this conversation initiated in the football threads. I apologise for that. It was unintentional. There's a wonky internet connection where I currently am and it may have been the cause. Edited February 4, 2020 by BroadstairsR Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted February 4, 2020 How about stopping them entering the country in the first place? Problem then doesn't occur. And because they are mostly the second generation that becomes radicalised, then stop them at the first generation from coming unless they commit to integration and assimilation. And how do you do that? It is like saying to a child, don't do that again. They never say bog off do they. In this case, and as with any other sentence, the real hardened terrorist or criminal, is unlikely to be deterred by a full sentence rather than half or three quarters. Yes we should lock up terrorists if only to prevent them carrying out their evil deeds. But I do believe there are many more ready to take their place. I do not have the answer. I listened to the arguments regarding the Trump "peace" agreement and while it was so biased, I don't think the Palestinians did themselves any favours by dismissing it out of hand. They should have attended talks and walked out if necessary. But while groups of people use God, pride, territory, customs, history and not common sense, peace, prosperity as arguments it will be long after any of us are around before the world's problems are lessened. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lharman7 39 Posted February 4, 2020 2 hours ago, cornish sam said: Just to add, whenever someone is killed by another human, it should not be a cause for celebration or justification, it is a sign of a failure. Rather than lauding the people that have doubtless saved lives through their actions we should be lamenting the fact that society had let the perpetrator get into that mental state in the first place. Absolute tosh. Some people definitely deserve it. Capitol punishment needs to be reintroduced, martyr or no martyr. I wonder if you share the same views towards paedophiles and child murderers? There should be zero tolerance with no second chances. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,324 Posted February 4, 2020 3 hours ago, cornish sam said: Just to add, whenever someone is killed by another human, it should not be a cause for celebration or justification, it is a sign of a failure. Rather than lauding the people that have doubtless saved lives through their actions we should be lamenting the fact that society had let the perpetrator get into that mental state in the first place. Just No. It is not the fault of society. It is the fault of the terrorist who has taken a conscious decision to commit an act of murder against innocent people. Don't shift the blame onto society. And let the perpetrators know there will be serious consequences for their actions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Foggo 1,116 Posted February 4, 2020 If you listen to the experts, they will tell you that most of these people are, young, impressionable, poor.. look at the vast majority of these offenders in the UK, France, Belgium.. petty criminality, small drug issues etc. It's not down to religion... it's down to grooming and stupidity. I have to believe that we can tackle this by education and providing opportunity. The death penalty does nothing in the USA to stop violent offenders, and whilst my sympathies lay wholly with the victims and I have no real wish to allow the state to kill these criminals. The shooting though, of the Streatham criminal, was 100% justified due to the fake belt and his actions. I'd rather we tried to deter & help these actions not happen than show how tough we are... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 5,088 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, lharman7 said: Absolute tosh. Some people definitely deserve it. Capitol punishment needs to be reintroduced, martyr or no martyr. I wonder if you share the same views towards paedophiles and child murderers? There should be zero tolerance with no second chances. Let’s hope you’re never a victim of a miscarriage of justice or you’ll end up looking a little silly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
......and Smith must score. 1,332 Posted February 4, 2020 3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said: 'Could of' should carry a sentence of 30 years at Portman Road. Never mind that......having lived in and around Streatham for 12 years ‘ Streathem ‘ should carry the death penalty at the very least 😉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobLoz3 492 Posted February 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Number9 said: I believe he was shot as he appeared to be wearing an explosive vest. That is correct, it's what happened, and also feeds in to the 'martyr' idea. In that this guy would rather die for his beliefs than sit in jail. I don't think shooting him was necessarily needed, they probably didn't want to, but I guess that's the only option police have when faced with someone threatening to blow themselves up. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 4,866 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, lharman7 said: Absolute tosh. Some people definitely deserve it. Capitol punishment needs to be reintroduced, martyr or no martyr. I wonder if you share the same views towards paedophiles and child murderers? There should be zero tolerance with no second chances. Capital not Capitol. Are you really happy for innocent people to be murdered by the State? https://www.lifedeathprizes.com/real-life-crime/three-wrongful-uk-executions-67674 Add to those cases numerous other subsequent examples of people that have been freed from life sentences they received due to incompetence on the part of the police force. One day it could be you with a rope round your neck. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lharman7 39 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said: Capital not Capitol. Are you really happy for innocent people to be murdered by the State? https://www.lifedeathprizes.com/real-life-crime/three-wrongful-uk-executions-67674 Add to those cases numerous other subsequent examples of people that have been freed from life sentences they received due to incompetence on the part of the police force. One day it could be you with a rope round your neck. Where in my post did I mention innocent people will be murdered? I thought the topic was about terrorists killing innocent people. Again, zero tolerance! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lharman7 39 Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Nuff Said said: Let’s hope you’re never a victim of a miscarriage of justice or you’ll end up looking a little silly. Cheers, I'll keep that in mind. Still, I wouldn't like to be mistaken for a terrorist, paedophile, murderer sympathizer either! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites