Jump to content
paul moy

Wuhan coronavirus

Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes the "like" did relate to your broad agreement VW. No pedantry from me. I'm not that kind. We need to be kind to each other (one poster on here tells me I have a different BBC and points it out publicly rather than check it for himself for example. An he is a Norwich fan too!).

Lots of worry about our loved ones. And it IS comforting to give hopeful words (even if not true). Worry never makes anything better. We all admire a good bedside manner in a doctor when we visit a surgery.

My points (perhaps I'm am not clear enough myself) were more about hope being fine but we need direction. It's that kind of thing that reassures me.

I have wondered about coming off this forum for a week or so because sometimes these kinds of things don't  bring out the best in some folk. I don't think I would be missed..... I often post to share my anxieties and annoyance which is possibly not such a good thing and will perhapst now process this in myself in future (sensitive soul as I can be! ...and that won't change VW). I will keep reading though. I've been here since 2004 and have tended to be a reader rather than a high number poster. I need to go back to just that.

The more people that post the better, it’s good social distancing😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

He certainly won a huge majority in Parliament but I'm sure you'll recall that our weird electoral system gave him that huge majority on the basis of 42.6% of the vote, and a good chunk of those were Labour voters holding their noses and voting for him (probably for the one and only time) purely because of Brexit.

Granted some people still seem to like him but the real enthusiasts must only be about a third of the population at best, whilst a high proportion of the rest of us absolutely loath him.

I would have thought that the total u-turn he performed a week ago would have unnerved even many of the enthusiasts, but whatever our individual opinions he clearly isn't someone who can unify and command the respect across the country that you would normally expect to be automatically the case for any British PM in a such crisis.

He was quite rightly accused of hiding earlier on but that was because hiding went hand in hand with a lack of action. Now that action is belatedly starting, IMO we (and he) would be better served by having regular briefings from the medical experts. I try and avoid watching him on a daily basis, but my wife usually does watch and says he looks and sounds uncertain on the details, incredibly uncomfortable and as though he wished was anywhere else - which hardly inspires confidence.

Didn't see the Andy Burnham interview, still find his decision to go for Mayor rather odd but I guess he must have felt he could achieve more there than in Parliament and the way things are going he may well be proven right!

 

 

Burnham was was on the question time panel last night, he was Sec of State for Health during the Swine Flu outbreak so had an insight into what it’s like to be in government at times like this, although what we face now is of a different order of magnitude. He made it clear he was not looking to score political points, asked Matt Hancock some searching questions, but was also supportive. 

Edited by Van wink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think the UK government are doing an OK job. Just like the rest of the world, they are dealing with something that is unprecedented in the modern age. They will make mistakes along the way, as all countries have, because of the nature of the beast we are dealing with. Every country is different in its culture and organisation, and every country is at different stages of this virus, meaning responses vary - this does not mean one country is right and one wrong in the actions they take. We will only really know what actions worked best in 2 - 5 years time once this crisis has gone and a project is undertaken to review the affects of the actions taken.

As for Johnson - some love him, some hate him, some couldn't give a sh*t either way (as is clearly evidenced in this thread). If he didn't go to the news conferences some would say he was hiding, others that he was correctly leaving it to the experts. If he does go, some will say he is showing leadership, others will say he should leave it to the experts.

All I care about is that clearly the medical experts are leading our response. They are the best we have and they are doing the best they can to protect those most at risk of harm. 

I'm currently self-isolating for 14 days and my parents are going to have to tuck themselves away for 12 weeks. If that keeps them safe and others, then it's a small sacrifice to make. 

OTBC

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The more people that post the better, it’s good social distancing😀

👍

Cheers but I'm outta here (posting) for a good while VW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Talking to my son yesterday, he said somebody at work's dad is a vet, & coronavirus has been knocking about in horses for a while. I seem to remember it made the news a while back (probably to do with racing), but it shows that perhaps there are many diseases in animals which can evolve to make the species jump.

Yes.  HIV, Ebola, swine flu, bird flu, lass fever etc etc.   All zoonotic diseases mutated from animal forms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

It's running at about the same as spain at the moment but certainly the proportions are high.   Too early to tell much from this I guess

I think when talking proportions there are so many factors to determine that nobody can draw a conclusion about any nations current death compared to...to...what exactly?...deaths against total of confirmed cases?...death % against nation population? deaths against recovered patients?...i could make more...and even each one of those can be split down another dozen different ways  with another dozen different expanations...truth is every single nation will have different stats  for different things for differing reasons...no conclusion can be  forthcoming except that Coronavirus is a nasty beast thats killing people and making merry with the global society and its daily life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I keep 'hoping' VW but BJ seems incapable of leading - to tell people what they don't want to hear, to make 'tough' decisions without his hand being forced - to get ahead of the curve! It seems even the Californian President has more balls.

That's why he has the two experts either side - to try to give him some much needed and lacking credibility. Wouldn't be needed with almost any previous PM.

 

As far as I can see it there are only two more steps that can be taken.  No more  non-essential economic activity at all. Then full lockdown.

If he is to display 'leadership' presumably wht you are saying is that he must do one of these two things?

Personally I liked the 12 weeks target.  It might not be possible but if we are to achieve something it is almost universally easier if we have a defined end point and  target timescale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

👍

Cheers but I'm outta here (posting) for a good while VW.

That's a shame. You are writing sense. Trust me in saying that this is a good place to vent and get stuff off your chest.

Stay safe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Barbe bleu said:

As far as I can see it there are only two more steps that can be taken.  No more  non-essential economic activity at all. Then full lockdown.

If he is to display 'leadership' presumably wht you are saying is that he must do one of these two things?

Personally I liked the 12 weeks target.  It might not be possible but if we are to achieve something it is almost universally easier if we have a defined end point and  target timescale.

The trouble is some of us remember the arbitrary time limits he set and missed during a certain political trouble. Don't do it. It is possible to be positive and gee up the public without resorting to this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Herman said:

The trouble is some of us remember the arbitrary time limits he set and missed during a certain political trouble. Don't do it. It is possible to be positive and gee up the public without resorting to this. 

He won an election by some majority because he set timetables. Because he has a clear messagedg

 As I recall his election pledge was 'get brexit done' and not much more.   Literally no one in the election was calling out for flexible dates or a wait and see what happens approach.

You might not like what he was setting out a timetable to get done but you surely cannot deny the power of the target?

There is not a single management school that says that objectives should be vague and not time bound and they don t do so for good reason.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

As far as I can see it there are only two more steps that can be taken.  No more  non-essential economic activity at all. Then full lockdown.

If he is to display 'leadership' presumably wht you are saying is that he must do one of these two things?

I don't think that was what YF was saying, and it is certainly not what I've criticised him for either - he has already evidenced a lack of leadership in that virtually step he has taken so far has been following businesses and individuals who have already acted rather than him leading.

He was too slow to take it seriously in the first place, he has never been able to articulate clearly what the plan is because as far as I can see it was nothing more than a set of bullet points - whilst we were in Stage 1 Contain the government should have been working flat out to prepare for the almost inevitable Stage 2. But no, when we move into Stage 2 there's nothing at all worked out and all he does announce headlines which people were already acting on beforehand but still no detail of how it was supposed to operate.

This is not a leader, this is a very poor PM doing a very rapid transition from indifference to panic.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any equivalent to this (non-governmental in this case) interactive map of cases for the UK or for Europe?

Note, the data is from pubic sources, but "recovered" is apparently not something generally being reported out. 

https://www.coronainusa.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

As far as I can see it there are only two more steps that can be taken.  No more  non-essential economic activity at all. Then full lockdown.

If he is to display 'leadership' presumably wht you are saying is that he must do one of these two things?

Personally I liked the 12 weeks target.  It might not be possible but if we are to achieve something it is almost universally easier if we have a defined end point and  target timescale.

BB - The time for Boris to act was several weeks ago - he flunked that. Frankly the prevarication on getting tough - ahead of the curve closing schools, pubs, restaurants if only for few weeks has dumped us into this catastrophic position. There was fair warning.

Now the timing is set by the out of control virus in the UK - the 12 weeks is nothing to do with Boris - it's largey the natural timescales over which the virus will start to reach saturation point and there won't be many left of us to infect! That's you and me. The 80%.

If there is a chance still to 'get a grip' it is to go very very hard on a shutdown - 1 month on everything and full isolation of all developing cases - a Wuhan! Unpopular and horrible but necessary. Else do little/nothing and let it rip. Currenntly I think we have the worse of all worlds

Economic consequences are huge but but we are now in a totally reactive mode. I would suggest 25K/year universal payment for non pensioners with all rents/mortgages held/paid. Enough for everybody to live on with no means testing.

How overwhelmed will the NHS be in 12 weeks ? 10 x - 20 x 100 x

Boris frankly has zero control - it doesn't matter what he says. We will all have better things to (not) do!

Edited by Yellow Fever
Boris the 'Nero' Johnson !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

BB - The time for Boris to act was several weeks ago - he flunked that. Frankly the prevarication on getting tough - ahead of the curve closing schools, pubs, restaurants if only for few weeks has dumped us into this catastrophic position. There was fair warning.

Now the timing is set by the out of control virus in the UK - the 12 weeks is nothing to do with Boris - it's largey the natural timescales over which the virus will start to reach saturation point and there won't be many left of us to infect! That's you and me. The 80%.

If there is a chance still to 'get a grip' it is to go very very hard on a shutdown - 1 month on everything and full isolation of all developing cases - a Wuhan! Unpopular and horrible but necessary. Else do little/nothing and let it rip. Currenntly I think we have the worse of all worlds

Economic consequences are huge but but we are now in a totally reactive mode. I would suggest 25K/year universal payment for non pensioners with all rents/mortgages held/paid. Enough for everybody to live on with no means testing.

How overwhelmed will the NHS be in 12 weeks ? 10 x - 20 x 100 x

Boris frankly has zero control - it doesn't matter what he says. We will all have better things to (not) do!

The only way that can happen is to suspend civil liberties. Are you advocating that approach?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only way that can happen is to suspend civil liberties. Are you advocating that approach?

We've already enacted laws which can suspend civil liberties.

He need to do what the French and Germans are now doing - we are perhaps a week behind either ergo we can have more effect.

Certainly close the pubs and restaurants today! not 'optional'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way that can happen is to suspend civil liberties. Are you advocating that approach?

Having witnessed, as we all have, panic buying, when the shelves are full and the supply chain continues, I think it will come to that if the supply chain breaks. Repeating myself once again, people in this country have been told so many times they are the best, they do not and will not support any firm clampdown. They are too arrogant,

I fear if we see troops on the streets for anything other than deliveries. But Spain and Italy have already experienced that and there has been no civil unrest as far as I know.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due caution about posts originating from a non-medical qualified person (i.e. me) these links are very interesting. 

These tie in with the ideas that a) it's possible to reduce recovery time and hence free up ventilator capacity, and b) to test for those who have recovered and are now immune to further infection (unless the virus mutates), so therefore they can be released back into the workforce, and it may be possible to use the antibodies to the virus found in their blood to treat others. 

https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-as-a-treatment-of-covid-19/

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.17.20037713v1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only way that can happen is to suspend civil liberties. Are you advocating that approach?

The point I'm trying (and indeed you previously) is that we need to get control of this. So far the curve is following its natural progression because none of Johnsons suggestions have been mandatory until really too late. No doubt tonight the pubs and clubs will be busy in parts and others more elderly will be in the locals too. How many will visit their elderly mum on Sunday. I could go on.

We know that the incubation time is at most 14 days so if you shut everything stringently down (yes emergency powers... this is what they for) everything bar critical services for a month you should pretty much halt the pandemic with only a small residual number of escapees left. 

All I'm really asking is to stop saying we are at war with virus and then acting in a relaxed laissez-faire way ! Get real.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

We've already enacted laws which can suspend civil liberties.

He need to do what the French and Germans are now doing - we are perhaps a week behind either ergo we can have more effect.

Certainly close the pubs and restaurants today! not 'optional'

We are moving in that direction, he still seems to be hanging on to the hope that as a society we will all become compliant with Government advice, its is happening to a point but too slowly and not in sufficient numbers. I really fear for London now and soon all our local hospital beds will be full of patients from the Capital.

Edited by Van wink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

We are moving in that direction, he still seems to be hanging on to the hope that as a society we will all become compliant with Government advice, its is happening to a point but too slowly and not in sufficient numbers. I really fear for London now and soon all our local hospital beds will be full of patients from the Capital.

Yes. Exactly. I would rather be damned for being too authoritarian than too weak with what is about to overwhelm us.

Edited by Yellow Fever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes. Exactly. I would rather be damned for being too authoritarian than too weak with what is about to overwhelm us.

I don't  want to sound flippant but isn't  that what all dictatorships say? 

" It's  for your own good if we  just exercise a bit of control until things are running ok".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I don't  want to sound flippant but isn't  that what all dictatorships say? 

" It's  for your own good if we  just exercise a bit of control until things are running ok".

It's called a state of emergency. All democracies have these powers for exactly this situation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rugby Football Union has cancelled the season and training for all clubs apart from the Premiership, They will advise clubs what they will be doing about promotion and relegation in April.

You can imagine they have sought legal advice on this and will be speaking to all clubs regarding their individual circumstances. The club I watch, Camborne, told the players at the start of the season that promotion would be a disaster financially. In the league above are Redruth, four miles away but apart from that, there is one near Leicester, one near Southend and six near London.

I believe RFU might consult clubs to see who are capable of promotion despite where they are in the league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I was merely acting the part of the Devils Advocate there.

It does however seem to me that those now calling for extra authoritarian measures are the same people who were accusing the Government of running an elected dictatorship a few weeks ago. Civil Liberties were hard won so we need to be careful what we wish for and act in a responsible manner if we want to preserve them. I realise that this is difficult for some to comprehend but the "they are not going to tell me what I can and can't do", attitude will make things worse for everyone. The last thing I want to see is the army on the streets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Any equivalent to this (non-governmental in this case) interactive map of cases for the UK or for Europe?

Note, the data is from pubic sources, but "recovered" is apparently not something generally being reported out. 

https://www.coronainusa.com

The official Public Health England dashboard updated daily that i linked yesterday or day before has  all stats covered for the  UK, including those recovered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ricardo said:

Sorry, I was merely acting the part of the Devils Advocate there.

It does however seem to me that those now calling for extra authoritarian measures are the same people who were accusing the Government of running an elected dictatorship a few weeks ago. Civil Liberties were hard won so we need to be careful what we wish for and act in a responsible manner if we want to preserve them. I realise that this is difficult for some to comprehend but the "they are not going to tell me what I can and can't do", attitude will make things worse for everyone. The last thing I want to see is the army on the streets.

Last thing I want to see if more bodies I  bags than is unavoidable. If that means troops on the streets then we should thank them, not fear them.  

That gruesome count is also going to be the only appropriate measurement of leadership 

I think that for most people their assessment of boris's leadership on covid 19 was formed before anyone knew what covivid 19 was.  Everything since has just been confirmation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...