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TeemuVanBasten

What is the "five year plan"?

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From there to be a plan there would have to be a well thought out strategy 

as neither exist and as always the club lurches from one extreme to another 

a well financed successful Chinese investor wouldn’t half make a difference 

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9 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

That is so wide of the mark. Even as we speak, if we sell four or five players we can amass well over £100 million and adding the money we make this season from being in the PL and adding parachute payments to that if we get relegated, could give us £200m plus in finance to develop the club and develop the squad further . None of that money would be needed to go into paying off debts like it did in the past, because we have no debt. 

It is really quite an exciting position to be in - a club able to build its squad and its finances organically, with a clear playing policy and a style of football that at its best is wonderful to watch. 

I can't really understand why there are still some who can't take this on board. 

Not strictly true Lakey, our wage budget will eat around £60 + million of that, with other costs such as paying back the loan to the fans plus the bonus that’s another £5 million, running costs, player purchase / loans and expenses probably a good £15 million you’ll end up with around something like £40 million profit which will be subject to tax.

Add on that next three years to align wages should we not gain promotion again, ground & training improvement requirements, Cat 1 costs and that parachute money soon gets eaten up.

Lastly the player value is there for this season, come the summer their value will be subject to what any team will want to pay for a relegated player, our potential market might shrink, so that £100 million you say might be way too high.

It’s far too easy to chuck out that £200 million but the reality is somewhat different my friend, we won’t buy big, but develop our youth players, the likes of Idah, Bushiri Famewo etc.

As for this 5 year plan, it’s non existent, it was all about Webber sorting out a club close to the brink again, setting a target for premiership promotion, building on clearing the debts and living with our clubs financially restricted structure. It can’t be a five year plan as others stated on other posts Webber expects to be gone within three years isn’t he?

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9 minutes ago, Indy said:

Not strictly true Lakey, our wage budget will eat around £60 + million of that, with other costs such as paying back the loan to the fans plus the bonus that’s another £5 million, running costs, player purchase / loans and expenses probably a good £15 million you’ll end up with around something like £40 million profit which will be subject to tax.

Add on that next three years to align wages should we not gain promotion again, ground & training improvement requirements, Cat 1 costs and that parachute money soon gets eaten up.

Lastly the player value is there for this season, come the summer their value will be subject to what any team will want to pay for a relegated player, our potential market might shrink, so that £100 million you say might be way too high.

It’s far too easy to chuck out that £200 million but the reality is somewhat different my friend, we won’t buy big, but develop our youth players, the likes of Idah, Bushiri Famewo etc.

As for this 5 year plan, it’s non existent, it was all about Webber sorting out a club close to the brink again, setting a target for premiership promotion, building on clearing the debts and living with our clubs financially restricted structure. It can’t be a five year plan as others stated on other posts Webber expects to be gone within three years isn’t he?

Now that is a depressing summary of the finances at Norwich even if half right. 

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7 minutes ago, Indy said:

It is far too easy to chuck out that £200 million but the reality is somewhat different my friend, we won’t buy big, but develop our youth players, the likes of Idah, Bushiri Famewo etc.

But I never said anything about buying big and I am totally happy with the approach we have now. I agree all money made will go into further development of what we are doing now, investing in young players who will keep us fresh and getting good seasoned players players as we have been doing.

My simple point is that we are not broke nor are likely to be any time soon.  Success in this division means that can carry on and if relegated we are in the best possible position to get promoted again.  I know there are no guarantees, football is a gamble whatever your status as a club - and I would far rather see what we are doing than seeing all these big money clubs soulessly trying to stay in the PL, failing to do so then struggling soulessly in the championship like your Stokes, Fulhams, West Hams, etc. 

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3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Now that is a depressing summary of the finances at Norwich even if half right. 

Your own finances must be extremely healthy if you think a £40m profit (not necessariy accepting Indy's figures) is depressing.

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1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

Your own finances must be extremely healthy if you think a £40m profit (not necessariy accepting Indy's figures) is depressing.

As in £40M subject to tax and then relegation to follow. We all know what follows the return to the Championship because we’ve had enough practice by now. 

More doom and gloom news to follow so best to hide (as always) the majority share holders all through the summer.
 

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There is no 5 year plan. That's just corporate Bojjolks. There are the same what if factors that so many have thrown around about investing too much money in transfers this season. There are no guarantees and it the same with the 5 year plan. 

You either have ambition grab the chance when it comes along and have contingency plans in place should you fail. Or you play it safe. Thing is you still need contingency plan because 3 years in the champions and your back to square 1 skint and scraping the barrel. Oh and by the way, your Webbers and Farkes by then they're long gone. Pledging the undying life long love to another club prepared to pay them more!

 

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25 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

As in £40M subject to tax and then relegation to follow. We all know what follows the return to the Championship because we’ve had enough practice by now. 

More doom and gloom news to follow so best to hide (as always) the majority share holders all through the summer.
 

Trouble is people think there’s no added cost and the TV money floods straight into profits, it doesn’t, as pointed out wages, bonuses, running costs all ramp up and pretty much eat into that money the first season, then you have a three year grace period to align to championship budgets. I know my figures as pointed out by Purple are estimated but they’re far more realistic than 200 million value posted by some.

Of course there will be some form of relegation clauses in most players contracts but it’s pretty certain they will still be on a damn higher wage than they were the last time they played in the championship.

40 million in profit is far better than 40 million loss.....should be looked at with success.

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20 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

There is no 5 year plan. That's just corporate Bojjolks. There are the same what if factors that so many have thrown around about investing too much money in transfers this season. There are no guarantees and it the same with the 5 year plan. 

You either have ambition grab the chance when it comes along and have contingency plans in place should you fail. Or you play it safe. Thing is you still need contingency plan because 3 years in the champions and your back to square 1 skint and scraping the barrel. Oh and by the way, your Webbers and Farkes by then they're long gone. Pledging the undying life long love to another club prepared to pay them more!

 

Yes we did that under Alex Neil and it put us in a very bad place. Better to build than gamble, build the structure and youth culture here to get the best youngsters wanting to come as they know they’ll get the chance to gain first team football.Cat 1 is key to our future not more Jarvis or Naismith’s.

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2 minutes ago, Indy said:

Trouble is people think there’s no added cost and the TV money floods straight into profits, it doesn’t, as pointed out wages, bonuses, running costs all ramp up and pretty much eat into that money the first season, then you have a three year grace period to align to championship budgets. I know my figures as pointed out by Purple are estimated but they’re far more realistic than 200 million value posted by some.

Of course there will be some form of relegation clauses in most players contracts but it’s pretty certain they will still be on a damn higher wage than they were the last time they played in the championship.

40 million in profit is far better than 40 million loss.....should be looked at with success.

So in essence it’s very healthy to stay up after promotion.

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6 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

So in essence it’s very healthy to stay up after promotion.

Yes but before you go shouting about investing, take a closer look at the other sides we’re battling relegation with, how much they’ve spent, how big their wage bill is, then ask yourself how will they cope with relegation under the FFP and understand that three teams must be relegated!

Edited by Indy

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

Yes we did that under Alex Neil and it put us in a very bad place. Better to build than gamble, build the structure and youth culture here to get the best youngsters wanting to come as they know they’ll get the chance to gain first team football.Cat 1 is key to our future not more Jarvis or Naismith’s.

The problem is that for us there is an inherent contradiction in:

You either have ambition grab the chance when it comes along and have contingency plans in place should you fail. Or you play it safe.

 

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49 minutes ago, Indy said:

Yes we did that under Alex Neil and it put us in a very bad place. Better to build than gamble, build the structure and youth culture here to get the best youngsters wanting to come as they know they’ll get the chance to gain first team football.Cat 1 is key to our future not more Jarvis or Naismith’s.

But there we have a shining example of what will hold us back for the next 20 year. 
we don’t trust ourselves not to buy another Naismith. 
then you’ll never spend big ever again. What should be looked at is who bought Naismith and why did we buy Naismith. 
this current board allowed us to buy Naismith on the day so of people they employed to find people to improve our team. Why because we needed a goal scorer (18 goals in 108 appearances for the on premiership club he’d ever played for) not exactly prolific. The club also bought him to appease the restless fans. All in all  Another PANIC BUY. 
that not what anyone want. 
What we want is people who find player who do have something to offer the club and enhance the club. That is an actual part of running a professional football club. Buying players that are able to improve your club straight away. If you don’t trust yourselves or any one else to do that for the club. I can’t see how you will ever ever remain in the premiership. Bad club management is rife and it comes from the top. 

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22 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

But there we have a shining example of what will hold us back for the next 20 year. 
we don’t trust ourselves not to buy another Naismith. 
then you’ll never spend big ever again. What should be looked at is who bought Naismith and why did we buy Naismith. 
this current board allowed us to buy Naismith on the day so of people they employed to find people to improve our team. Why because we needed a goal scorer (18 goals in 108 appearances for the on premiership club he’d ever played for) not exactly prolific. The club also bought him to appease the restless fans. All in all  Another PANIC BUY. 
that not what anyone want. 
What we want is people who find player who do have something to offer the club and enhance the club. That is an actual part of running a professional football club. Buying players that are able to improve your club straight away. If you don’t trust yourselves or any one else to do that for the club. I can’t see how you will ever ever remain in the premiership. Bad club management is rife and it comes from the top. 

Nope as we have Cantwell, better than Naismith ever was, scoring goals in the premiership and not cost us 8 million, Buendia & Hernandez weren’t cheap, cost a few million......

It’s about being patient, as I said building the squad quality, strengthening the weaker positions, Famewo and Bushiri are two very strong CB who might get the chance and step up, Idah all next season will probably have an impact to our squad and first team.

I’m sure we will see a few go out and a few come in, but unlike others I don’t see us changing the manager, don’t see major changes in our key youngsters I don’t think they will all be sold.

I don’t understand this argument of buying big to survive, doesn’t look great for Villa?

It’s about buying smart and setting up the right culture to grow.

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The idea that because our previous manager/MD ballsed up a couple of high cost transfers we can never spend money again is a tough one for quite a few to get past it seems.

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10 minutes ago, king canary said:

The idea that because our previous manager/MD ballsed up a couple of high cost transfers we can never spend money again is a tough one for quite a few to get past it seems.

But that’s the thing Kingo, we’ve spent a decent amount, Buendia cost aroun 6.5  million if the reports are correct, 1.5 initial cost and 5 million promotion clause apparently, we’ve done it sensibly too if you look at this season. Those with a question mark like Amadou who really haven’t made the step to this league can be sent back, we don’t have to spend 9 million on him......so lessons learned there.

No doubt there were a few which like the French lad who didn’t want to join us, we identified as worth the high cost risk, so would have spent the money if it was worth it. People think we make a bid and automatically the player will sign! I wonder how many players that Webber and Farke identified, told them I’m not interested in joining Norwich?

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2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

The problem is that for us there is an inherent contradiction in:

You either have ambition grab the chance when it comes along and have contingency plans in place should you fail. Or you play it safe.

 

Two other points. I don't remember it being specifically categorised as a five-year plan. Just that it was, depending on your definition of time frames, either a medium- or a long-term plan.

I don't believe the plan is tied to Webber, so that when he leaves in a few years' time it will be thrown away. Since as things stand the self-sustaining model is a necessity I imagine whoever succeeds Webber will carry on implementing it. Not least since supposedly Webber has already recommended possible successors.

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4 hours ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

From there to be a plan there would have to be a well thought out strategy 

as neither exist and as always the club lurches from one extreme to another 

a well financed successful Chinese investor wouldn’t half make a difference 

Problem with Chinese investors is their infectious laugh.

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4 hours ago, Indy said:

Not strictly true Lakey, our wage budget will eat around £60 + million of that, with other costs such as paying back the loan to the fans plus the bonus that’s another £5 million, running costs, player purchase / loans and expenses probably a good £15 million you’ll end up with around something like £40 million profit which will be subject to tax.

Add on that next three years to align wages should we not gain promotion again, ground & training improvement requirements, Cat 1 costs and that parachute money soon gets eaten up.

Lastly the player value is there for this season, come the summer their value will be subject to what any team will want to pay for a relegated player, our potential market might shrink, so that £100 million you say might be way too high.

It’s far too easy to chuck out that £200 million but the reality is somewhat different my friend, we won’t buy big, but develop our youth players, the likes of Idah, Bushiri Famewo etc.

As for this 5 year plan, it’s non existent, it was all about Webber sorting out a club close to the brink again, setting a target for premiership promotion, building on clearing the debts and living with our clubs financially restricted structure. It can’t be a five year plan as others stated on other posts Webber expects to be gone within three years isn’t he?

Don't forget the millions we will inevitably use to pay off the contracts of deadwood like Heise and Drmic. 

Although at least we can finally release James Husband. 

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We've spent far more than most people realise. Various signings have been on an undisclosed basis and no information on loan fees for players like Fahrmann, Amadou and Roberts have been disclosed. That is why a number of supporters have bandied around the figure that we 'only spent' £750,000 in the summer. It's probably closer to £10m with all of the signing on fees and loan fees.

The point is that if it just comes down to pure finances we will never be a sustainable Premier League club. We have to find a competitive advantage in other ways. Youth development - improving the players we have - is a massive area for us. We've created £100m of talent just by developing, and then playing, Aarons, Cantwell, Lewis and Godfrey. Shrewd recruitment is another massive area - we have £25m players in Buendia and Pukki, we just didn't have to spend £25m to get them. That's the way for us. 

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1 minute ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

I agree, not sure why you picked Stoke over say Brentford though........

It can take a while to find an example  that suits whatever point it is  people are trying  to  make.

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48 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Problem with Chinese investors is their infectious laugh.

That’s terrible, it’s the sort of joke which goes Viral!

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23 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

We've spent far more than most people realise. Various signings have been on an undisclosed basis and no information on loan fees for players like Fahrmann, Amadou and Roberts have been disclosed. That is why a number of supporters have bandied around the figure that we 'only spent' £750,000 in the summer. It's probably closer to £10m with all of the signing on fees and loan fees.

 

I believe the figure was in the accounts and it was about £7m in total with loan fees- still significantly lower than any other promoted team in recent years.

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Lower King, but my point is that whether it is £7m or £27m makes very little difference at PL level. What is far more important than any headline transfer fee is getting the scouting right and, for us, getting our youth development right. 

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2 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

Lower King, but my point is that whether it is £7m or £27m makes very little difference at PL level. What is far more important than any headline transfer fee is getting the scouting right and, for us, getting our youth development right. 

Disagree on the first point, agree on the second.

However, in order to get the most out of your youth development, you need to surround them with players of the required quality to develop.

Take Southampton- they started their game this week with more youth players in the starting XI than we did and they sit 9th. Because they realise that if they're going to get the most out of Jack Stephens in central defence then he needs a quality central defensive partner next to him. You can't expect to create a Premier League team out of youth graduates surrounded by players with minimal top flight experience/quality.

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I believe that a time period was not stated, but, when Webber was talking about our promotion at the end of last season he said we were a year ahead of schedule. The plan was stop the drop Farke year 1, stabilise a bit higher up the table with perhaps a playoff push year 2 and get promotion year 3, then yoyo for a bit.He has also stated that the long term plan is to be firmly ensconced in the top 26 whilst being self sufficient. So whilst it's not as soundbitey as a 5 Year Plan it is far more realistic...

Also, if we had a profit of £40m why would we pay tax on all of that? We lost £32m last year and every other club seems to be able to offset their profits against previous losses (according to people on here anyway) so couldn't we do the same?

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

That’s terrible, it’s the sort of joke which goes Viral!

Yep, but their money isn't to be sneezed at!

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

I believe the figure was in the accounts and it was about £7m in total with loan fees- still significantly lower than any other promoted team in recent years.

Does this not include the £3.5m extra we had to pay for Buendia after promotion?

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