BigFish 2,218 Posted February 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, Van wink said: I can’t agree with your opening remarks BF, there is undoubtedly imo still a large core support within the U.K. for values of society, a social safely net that is fair but accessible, a modern and well funded NHS and well funded quality public service provision. My view is that most of the U.K. is centre left but that there is no electable party that reflects that. Many voted Tory holding their noses, I think you underestimate the allegiance to historical views of injustice ( represented to many by the Tories ) and family voting patterns that still influence how whole communities are inclined to vote, the fact that Labour lost these votes is a damning indictment of Corbynism. The soul of the party for me should represent social justice, the practical values are the means by which social justice is delivered. That hasn’t changed, the working environment has been transformed in the modern era, but the basic underlying principals remain the same. I think we agree more than we disagree on this, particularly when it comes to values. The rest is just semantics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 19, 2020 Core support will not win an election BF. The people who have no allegiance are the King makers. And they fill the centre of politics. So if you want power that badly, as I believe the Tories did more than Labour, you have to convince that middle group to support you. And Johnson was far more convincing than Corbyn. And while I had to stand up and defend Corbyn during the campaign, that doesn't mean I was convinced he could win or whether I even wanted him to. Five years isn't a long time and I was hoping that a bloody nose might bring some sense. But instead of the hoped for bloody nose, we were decapitated. Who in their right mind wants to be leader? The current candidates are on a hiding to nothing even allowing for the probable downturn after Brexit. Even Starmer, the favourite, cannot, with his apparent centre and uniting stance, unite the Party just yet let along convince the voters. Angela Rayner has the best background to be a true Labour party leader. Her humble beginnings and trade union background make her ideal to empathise with those who have felt betrayed. But she is a bit of a Westminster novice really and maybe another term, coupled with her being Deputy Leader. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crafty Canary 536 Posted February 19, 2020 RBL wants to offer Corbyn a shadow front bench post, possibly shadow Foreign Secretary, if she wins the leadership as she loves him. Please God let this happen as it will keep the Tories in government for years to come. 🙂🙂🙂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crafty Canary 536 Posted February 19, 2020 Have the Loopy Demoncrats selected a new leader yet? I read that David Steel may be expelled from the party for not reporting the information passed to him about Cyril ‘Paedo’ Smith. Talk about shutting the stable door - the stable has fallen down by now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) The Labour party will continue to fail because it has no values that align with the values held or aspired to hold by the people of this country. There is no longer a reason to vote Labour unless you are a member of a niche minority. Labour has failed the people because it does not hold to the same values. On Breakfast TV Dawn Butler said that babies are born without a ****. How could any sane person vote for someone who's head is filled with insanity? All the female candidates share the same ideology and preach from the same sheet. It makes them unelectable. Only Starmer has refused to commit to go down this road but he is no reformer like Blair or Kinnock and will end up as a Momentum poodle. The Red Wall is permanently gone, not because they will be bribed by large sums of money (they will) but because their values align more closely with Johnson's Tory party. Thatcher was the last PM to successfully into the prevailing mood (Blair did for a while at the beginning but then threw it away as he became more imperious), But Johnson will run much further with it because he understands the public. By the time the next General Election comes around the Labour party will consist of middle-aged, middle-class Momentum supporters and they will get wiped out from everywhere other than a few metropolitan cities. Edited February 20, 2020 by Rock The Boat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 2,218 Posted February 20, 2020 19 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: Core support will not win an election BF........ Angela Rayner has the best background to be a true Labour party leader. Her humble beginnings and trade union background make her ideal to empathise with those who have felt betrayed. But she is a bit of a Westminster novice really and maybe another term, coupled with her being Deputy Leader. Electing an American born Old Etonian doesn't really support the idea that the country wants humble beginnings and a trade union background, KG. That said if Rayner had stood I think she would have had a good chance of being leader. I would have thought it might have led to a too leftie approach for your tastes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 20, 2020 Electing an American born Old Etonian doesn't really support the idea that the country wants humble beginnings and a trade union background, KG. That said if Rayner had stood I think she would have had a good chance of being leader. I would have thought it might have led to a too leftie approach for your tastes. I think the last election was as much about many people wanting to see their will carried out by anyone and the Old Etonian you refer to happened to be in the right place at the right time, well after a bit of skullduggery anyway. And being left is what I am. My father was a communist and I am a socialist. But my socialism isn't about taking away from someone to give it to someone else. That causes divide. As a Trade Union Secretary I had to constantly be aware that the worst thing you could do is deny somebody the chance to earn a living. You then strike into the heart of families and communities. I still believe in state ownership of much of this country. I do not see anything wrong with a carefully managed form of means testing. I believe that people expect to be governed. So many talk about their freedom and choice but when it comes down to it can't decide between a latte or americano so what chance have they got in deciding everything from finance to social care. That is not elitist or bolshevik. Most people want everything done for them and to go out and earn and make a life for themselves and family. Why do they have to worry about pensions and health care when they are striving to pay bills, educate their kids and have as much of a stress free life as they can. I am not in favour of continually taxing individuals just to give it to someone else. Two rates are fine with me. Just do away with the excessive allowances and loopholes which means the wealthy will have to pay tax on the whole amount. Then we are all doing our bit equally and without favour. I could type out my manifesto but just wanted to point out that too many people regard socialism as reds under the bed. That is because of media, tradition and downright lies in many cases. There has to be a gathering of mind and spirit in the middle with sensible ideas and outcomes. Not just the continual division that exists. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted February 20, 2020 The most successful Labour leader in history agrees with me that the Labour candidates are a bunch of ****: None of the Labour leadership candidates have shown they could win back power in five years, Tony Blair has said. The former Labour leader said that after its historic general election defeat in December it was clear the party needed a "fundamental reconstruction" if it were to win again. "The Tories are going to be dominant, they are going to try and create a real hegemony," Mr Blair told an audience at Kings College London. "Our voters, once they’ve voted Tory the first time...the second time it might be easier for them." He said that "fundamental reconstruction" was required and as things stood he did not "think you can tell if anyone running for the leadership is going to do that or not right now". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 20, 2020 The most successful Labour leader in history agrees with me that the Labour candidates are a bunch of ****: The most successful Tory in Labour clothing, in history is as usual being prompted to open his lying mouth and depict the current Labour Leadership contenders as what he is told by those paying him. What is the quote you ignore Tory Boy? Even Michael Foot could have won the 1997 General Election. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,406 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said: The most successful Labour leader in history agrees with me that the Labour candidates are a bunch of ****: The most successful Tory in Labour clothing, in history is as usual being prompted to open his lying mouth and depict the current Labour Leadership contenders as what he is told by those paying him. What is the quote you ignore Tory Boy? Even Michael Foot could have won the 1997 General Election. ****. Blair had his (several) flaws but he did far more for the average person in this country than any other Labour figure in the last 40 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creative Midfielder 2,180 Posted February 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, king canary said: ****. Blair had his (several) flaws but he did far more for the average person in this country than any other Labour figure in the last 40 years. That is unquestionably right, even if you don't like the guy and quite frankly KG's assertion that even Michael Foot could have won the 1997 General Election is on a par with saying that even Milliband could have won the 2015 election or even Corbyn could have won the 2017 & 2019 elections - yes in theory they could have but in practice they never came close and the same applies to Michael Foot in spades! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 20, 2020 Blair had his (several) flaws but he did far more for the average person in this country than any other Labour figure in the last 40 years. If you believe that and it is enough for you then fair enough. Personally, I was overjoyed when we won in 1997 but it didn't last. He did exactly what Johnson is doing and decided he was the only one right apart from his spin doctor. Alistair Campbell, the news editor of the Right Wing rag, Today Newspaper. The man who wanted rid of Clause IV. The co author of the Iraq Dossier. And of course, Lib Dem voter. Bleddy Cool Britannia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 20, 2020 That is unquestionably right, even if you don't like the guy and quite frankly KG's assertion that even Michael Foot could have won the 1997 General Election is on a par with saying that even Milliband could have won the 2015 election or even Corbyn could have won the 2017 & 2019 elections - yes in theory they could have but in practice they never came close and the same applies to Michael Foot in spades! I'm afraid a lot of Blair's tenancy of number 10 was questionable. The quote about Michael Foot was not to be taken literally but to make the point that after 18 years of the Tories and their widening split particularly over Europe meant that an opposition with policies that had seemed extreme 15 years earlier would have seemed better than Major's Government. People were desperate for change and even the LibDems managed to decimate the Tories. From a 21 majority to a 179 defeat says the country had had enough and wanted change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,406 Posted February 21, 2020 13 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: Blair had his (several) flaws but he did far more for the average person in this country than any other Labour figure in the last 40 years. If you believe that and it is enough for you then fair enough. Personally, I was overjoyed when we won in 1997 but it didn't last. He did exactly what Johnson is doing and decided he was the only one right apart from his spin doctor. Alistair Campbell, the news editor of the Right Wing rag, Today Newspaper. The man who wanted rid of Clause IV. The co author of the Iraq Dossier. And of course, Lib Dem voter. Bleddy Cool Britannia. It isn't what I 'believe' though. New Labour achieved a huge amount in their time in office. https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/what-did-new-labour-actually-achieve-epic-twitter-thread-hits-back-at-ken-loach-and-paul-mason/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 6,212 Posted February 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, king canary said: It isn't what I 'believe' though. New Labour achieved a huge amount in their time in office. https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/what-did-new-labour-actually-achieve-epic-twitter-thread-hits-back-at-ken-loach-and-paul-mason/ Speaking as somone who has never belonged to any political party, in terms of domestic policies I would rate Blair very highly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creative Midfielder 2,180 Posted February 21, 2020 13 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: That is unquestionably right, even if you don't like the guy and quite frankly KG's assertion that even Michael Foot could have won the 1997 General Election is on a par with saying that even Milliband could have won the 2015 election or even Corbyn could have won the 2017 & 2019 elections - yes in theory they could have but in practice they never came close and the same applies to Michael Foot in spades! I'm afraid a lot of Blair's tenancy of number 10 was questionable. The quote about Michael Foot was not to be taken literally but to make the point that after 18 years of the Tories and their widening split particularly over Europe meant that an opposition with policies that had seemed extreme 15 years earlier would have seemed better than Major's Government. People were desperate for change and even the LibDems managed to decimate the Tories. From a 21 majority to a 179 defeat says the country had had enough and wanted change. I realise the Michael Foot quote was tongue in cheek, and you are right that people were desperate for a change in 1997 but they were desperate for change in 2015, 2017 & 2019 as well. I think you significantly underrate what Blair achieved - firstly in campaigning terms he very effectively dispatched an unpopular government with some genuinely good policies which benefitted the whole country - education being a prime example. As someone who was Chair of Governors at our local school for several years before Blair came to power until years after he left power, his government had a massively beneficial impact on an education system that was literally falling apart when he came to power. That wasn't just a rabbit he pulled out of the hat at election time, it was a very clear policy he been campaigning on in opposition (he also provided a genuine oppostion in marked contrast to Corbyn). I think you'll find plenty of people who'll say exactly the same about what his government did for the NHS. Finally unlike the lying control freak currently occupying no 10, Blair did not surround himself with yes men/women - he had a team of people with some talent and stature of their own, in fact I would say his first term featured probably the most talented cabinet of my lifetime. The contrast between that cabinet and the current bunch of total grovelling, self-serving idiots couldn't be starker. I don't think anyone is suggesting he got it all right but equally I don't think any PM in my lifetime has done as good a job as him - of course that may still be a fairly low bar but I blame that primarily on our ridiculous two party system and dysfunctional electoral system which continues to produce the same old, same old.......................🙁 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 21, 2020 I appreciate that most want to see a Labour Leader like Blair and feel he did enough. I can never agree with that and that is what healthy debate is about. Some thought Thatcher was the Messiah for this country. Whereas I suspect no-one would be surprised that I thought she was more of an oppressor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,406 Posted February 21, 2020 3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: I appreciate that most want to see a Labour Leader like Blair and feel he did enough. I can never agree with that and that is what healthy debate is about. Some thought Thatcher was the Messiah for this country. Whereas I suspect no-one would be surprised that I thought she was more of an oppressor. The problem is that this 'healthy debate' hurts Labour. There are few starker reminders of the gap between Labour members and the rest of the general voting than how Blair is viewed, as the recent Ashcroft research into Labour's election failure showed- here is how the public answered 'who is Labour's best leader of recent times?' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,680 Posted February 21, 2020 Labour has always been the party that maybe debates too much. It is probably a more ideological party than others apart from the Greens. That does lead to problems I admit but I always believed as a Trade Union Secretary that you talked talked talked and when exhausted, talk some more. And I learnt compromise early in life when Mum took me of the breast and put me on a bottle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted February 21, 2020 On 20/02/2020 at 19:40, king canary said: ****. Blair had his (several) flaws but he did far more for the average person in this country than any other Labour figure in the last 40 years. Yes he did. And the conservatives were floundering around for years trying to find someone who could match him, eventually coming up with Cameron who was near-enough a Blair clone. Even today, all these years later the far left still hasn't forgiven Blair for being successful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted February 29, 2020 As no one talks about this topic any more I suppose we can agree that the candidates are all as dull as dishwater and have little relevance to anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,844 Posted February 29, 2020 Given a choice of two they are guaranteed to pick the wrong one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 10,959 Posted March 1, 2020 I would say we desperately need an opposition but looking at the way the Tories are self imploding maybe not.😀 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted March 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Herman said: I would say we desperately need an opposition but looking at the way the Tories are self imploding maybe not.😀 I'm mystified as to where they are self-imploding? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 10,959 Posted March 3, 2020 There's still another month to go. 😐 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted March 6, 2020 Having listened to the Labour candidates being interviewed on Andrew Neil Show it is safe to say that none of them are going to get anywhere remotely near the office of Prime Minister at any time in the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A Load of Squit 6,054 Posted March 7, 2020 11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said: Having listened to the Labour candidates being interviewed on Andrew Neil Show it is safe to say that none of them are going to get anywhere remotely near the office of Prime Minister at any time in the future. Yeh, 'cos Johnson's interview with Neil was amazing ..............................Oh! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said: Yeh, 'cos Johnson's interview with Neil was amazing ..............................Oh! Sorry, I missed Boris's candidacy for the Leader of the Labour Party. Literally, is there a single, credible Labour MP that could lead this party to an election victory? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites