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king canary

New Labour Leader

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11 hours ago, Jools said:

Your Socialist ideology both created the NHS and destroyed it -- It functioned quite well until you (Blair/Brown) opened the service to the world -- For at least 25 years or more there's been too many people using it who don't contribute to the pot.

The NHS is sadly no longer fit for purpose because of a lack of NI contributions that can't be feasibly increased.

And I'm mightily tired with the lib/lab/con using it as a political football..

I would suggest the German system 👍

Successive cuts more like. Underfunded by a Tory administration for the last decade, so much so, that Johnson in order to try and redress austerity, had to state he was building more hospitals and needed to recruit tens of thousands more nurses. Think of that.

Add on top the sheer pressure that this pandemic has created on a creaking system. It will all be added up later. You know too how the blame will be apportioned.

Strange too that the whole country was supporting the NHS so loudly and publicly with bunting in the streets. Not seen that since 1945 have we except for royalty. But yes, according to you it's just a  political football. 

Edited by sonyc
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21 hours ago, Jools said:

Britain being a nice place to live is great isn't it? And how does wanting to conserve ones country as a great place to live make true conservatives a laughing stock? I'm talking true conservatives as in ordinary folk with conservative beliefs, not the pretend conservatives in parliament who are mostly liberal. 

The majority of people in the West don't want Socialism because they know it's an idea that has failed throughout history -- Types of Socialism are failing today and they'll fail in the future because a Socialist Utopia is a land of make-believe -- Capitalism will trump Socialism every time, because the former is based in reality whilst the latter is based on Brer Rabbit...

It's also the opposite of progress.

 

 

The capitalist idea of people making lots of money out of care homes is a good thing?

The reality you mention is the notion that wealth entitles respect for what it is and not what it provides.

The notion, as the Chairman of Trailfinders mentioned just yesterday, that money can be used for something that what it wasn't intended for by a third party is not capitalism but theft.

Respect works both ways and those that drain the nation whether benefit cheats or tax evaders are equally guilty. 

Socialism eradicates both.

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9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The capitalist idea of people making lots of money out of care homes is a good thing?

The reality you mention is the notion that wealth entitles respect for what it is and not what it provides.

The notion, as the Chairman of Trailfinders mentioned just yesterday, that money can be used for something that what it wasn't intended for by a third party is not capitalism but theft.

Respect works both ways and those that drain the nation whether benefit cheats or tax evaders are equally guilty. 

Socialism eradicates both.

I can live with responsible businesses growing their products and markets and reinvesting....a kind of 'ethical capitalism' (possible?) but rampant capitalism is obscene. When one person greatly benefits it's because others greatly suffer.

It all boils down to the values we want to live by.

I've always been for the working man. And I had that feeling from about the age of 6 seeing a tramp in London out of the back of a car and then later as a teenager when I saw folk so much worse off living in shocking poverty. Something just felt uncomfortable. I come from a solidly conservative Norfolk family. 

It's good to share what we have. Money is good when it is used for good.

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On 18/11/2020 at 18:26, sonyc said:

I guess at least you're being honest in what you think and beleive. I struggle to understand however. Just what does "British Only" mean? Who is British? Who isn't British? Folk born here in the 1960s who were asked to help labour shortages and have paid tax all their lives? People from other countries who fought with our troops?

Can you not be 'left' and patriotic? As someone you would call 'left' (whatever this really means....do you mean open minded or liberal or a 'woke') you want "extinguished"? You must hold quite a deep hatred for folk on this forum to say this? A real deep-seated dislike? Or are you wanting a reaction to create an argument?

How might you want to "extinguish" people you don't like or have different views to you? Isn't this language close to hate speech? Would you act out your feelings RTB? It's very troubling. Though at least as mentioned you've been very open right here on a public forum.

As I've stated I don't understand..I read the words and again and again I have lots more questions.

Would you prefer folk not to have opinions here and therefore not to post them? If so, do you boil with anger reading them? Just asking so that I know not to inflame any of those feelings in the future. I'm not the kind to be abusive and am peace loving. 

British is both a national and a cultural definition. Yes you can be left and patriotic. There are few people more patriotic than the white, working-class British, traditional Labour voters who now realise that the left no longer supports their patriotic views. Labour people like Lady Nugee who posts sneering tweets about St. George's flags hanging in working-class districts. Or Jeremy Corbyn who would rather support terrorists, when working-class people send their sons to join the British army to fight the very terrorists that Corbyn supports. When I say I want the left extinguished I mean that I want people like Corbyn removed from public life. They present a great danger to British society. And it is not just me. Check out Paul Embery, Labour Party and Trade Union Activist who also recognises the patriotism of the working-class, particularly the English working-class, is seen as a negative in the eyes of current Labour thinking - and a very important factor in the Red Wall crumbling.

 

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12 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

British is both a national and a cultural definition. Yes you can be left and patriotic. There are few people more patriotic than the white, working-class British, traditional Labour voters who now realise that the left no longer supports their patriotic views. Labour people like Lady Nugee who posts sneering tweets about St. George's flags hanging in working-class districts. Or Jeremy Corbyn who would rather support terrorists, when working-class people send their sons to join the British army to fight the very terrorists that Corbyn supports. When I say I want the left extinguished I mean that I want people like Corbyn removed from public life. They present a great danger to British society. And it is not just me. Check out Paul Embery, Labour Party and Trade Union Activist who also recognises the patriotism of the working-class, particularly the English working-class, is seen as a negative in the eyes of current Labour thinking - and a very important factor in the Red Wall crumbling.

 

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

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13 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

British is both a national and a cultural definition. Yes you can be left and patriotic. There are few people more patriotic than the white, working-class British, traditional Labour voters who now realise that the left no longer supports their patriotic views. Labour people like Lady Nugee who posts sneering tweets about St. George's flags hanging in working-class districts. Or Jeremy Corbyn who would rather support terrorists, when working-class people send their sons to join the British army to fight the very terrorists that Corbyn supports. When I say I want the left extinguished I mean that I want people like Corbyn removed from public life. They present a great danger to British society. And it is not just me. Check out Paul Embery, Labour Party and Trade Union Activist who also recognises the patriotism of the working-class, particularly the English working-class, is seen as a negative in the eyes of current Labour thinking - and a very important factor in the Red Wall crumbling.

 

Thank you for replying. There is so much I could say on my thoughts about what being British means. Yet, it would be rather rambling and probably turn into several pages, quite unsuitable for this pinkun forum. I've always struggled with Occam's Razor. I fear it would turn into a Sonyc Manifesto of sorts too given the political responses to society I think are needed.

So, I cannot easily reduce my thoughts, which must feel a cop out.... The truth being that I have some breadth in my thoughts but little depth, except only in two or three things.

I don't know if the white and younger working class population are more patriotic (and here I speak as someone who has spent 30 plus years of working in extremely disadvantaged council estates in Bradford, some of the most deprived in the UK, indeed Europe). I have also spent 25 years in the field of psychology working with a very wide range of people. Again, I only see the 'individual' in a person, if you see my point, not their politics. Therefore, to make such a claim about class and politics isn't black and white for me, as it appears it is for you.

That Labour has been failing for a long while isn't for argument. They haven't tasted as much power as the Conservatives. When they did under Blair more recently, they were more like a Tory party at times. But this is a comparative failure as a Party not it's arguments. We need more discussion on what the vision is for the country, not some reductive, narrow narrative provided by a mythical kind of populism. Populism divides.

I agree that Corbyn (for me) was not a great leader and I would find myself feeling annoyed many times in his responses, even out of power. Yet, he was able to hit a nerve and energise younger voters. Some of their policies were progressive. To cast off ideas is unhelpful as it is to focus on personality for the basis of our own political views.

When it boils down to what matters to people there is far more that unites us, connects us RTB. That much I know for sure. If this forum started to discuss these issues with questions, listening and improved understanding as a result, do much the better. Yet, it probably won't.

Edit: some typos and gaps in grammar often emerge when using the phone to type ....slightly improved last paragraph below!

Edited by sonyc
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1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Thank you for replying. There is so much I could say on my thoughts about what being British means. Yet, it would be rather rambling and probably turn into several pages, quite unsuitable for this pinkun forum. I've always struggled with Occam's Razor. I fear it would turn into a Sonyc Manifesto of sorts too given the political responses to society I think are needed.

So, I cannot easily reduce my thoughts, which must feel a cop out.... The truth being that I have some breadth in my thoughts but little depth, except only in two or three things.

I don't know if the white and younger working class population are more patriotic (and here I speak as someone who has spent 30 plus years of working in extremely disadvantaged council estates in Bradford, some of the most deprived in the UK, indeed Europe). I have also spent 25 years in the field of psychology working with a very wide range of people. Again, I only see the 'individual' in a person, if you see my point, not their politics. Therefore, to make such a claim about class and politics isn't black and white for me, as it appears it is for you.

That Labour has been failing for a long while isn't for argument. They haven't tasted as much power as the Conservatives. When they did under Blair more recently, they were more like a Tory party at times. But this is a comparative failure as a Party not it's arguments. We need more discussion on what the vision is for the country, not some reductive, narrow narrative provided by a mythical kind of populism. Populism divides.

I agree that Corbyn (for me) was not a great leader and I would find myself feeling annoyed many times in his responses, even out of power. Yet, he was able to hit a nerve and energise younger voters. Some of their policies were progressive. To cast off ideas is unhelpful as it is to focus on personality for the basis of our own political views.

When it boils down to what matters to people there is far more that unites us, connects us RTB. That much I know for sure. If this forum started to discuss these issues with questions, listening and improved understanding, as a result, we might begin to do much better. We might generate some solutions with a few differences around the edges. Yet, we probably won't.

 

 

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5000 a day vaccinated and having to go back for another jab and to be told it will not stop you catching it but you won't suffer from it isnt really good news at all. It gives us hope is all.

How long until the last 17 year old gets it? How old will they be?

Edited by keelansgrandad

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As loathsome, sly, dishonest, authoritarian and quasi socialist as the current Tory government undoubtedly is, every time Sir Wan Kier speaks he reminds us that things would be far worse under Labour...

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2 minutes ago, Jools said:

 

As loathsome, sly, dishonest, authoritarian and quasi socialist as the current Tory government undoubtedly is, every time Sir Wan Kier speaks he reminds us that things would be far worse under Labour...

Quasi socialist ? this is the most right wing Government we've had in a long time.

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And here is the far right. Herr Farage

Nigel Farage (@Nigel_Farage)
As football fans return it will not just be Millwall supporters who have sussed out BLM as a Marxist mob who now want to be a political party.

There must be no more taking the knee.

And no taking your pension off the EU after January Herr Greedy Bustard

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image.png.d193826efb31d2c0eac1a928764e0f76.png

 

 

Tells us how bad Captain Hindsight is 🙃 Or General Indecision as he's known these days 😀

Edited by Jools

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Labour leader saying more devolution when Labour wins the next election. Middle ground policy.

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On 08/12/2020 at 23:00, keelansgrandad said:

5000 a day vaccinated and having to go back for another jab and to be told it will not stop you catching it but you won't suffer from it isnt really good news at all. It gives us hope is all.

How long until the last 17 year old gets it? How old will they be?

You remind me of someone finding a sixpence and feeling sad that it wasn't a shilling.

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28 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

Labour leader saying more devolution when Labour wins the next election. Middle ground policy.

Some can't wait until the year 3025

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3 hours ago, KiwiScot said:

Labour leader saying more devolution when Labour wins the next election. Middle ground policy.

Labour won't win the next election, but there is a good chance of an anti-Tory coalition government, one of whose first actions will be to apply to rejoin the EU or at least ask for Norway-style status.

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25 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Labour won't win the next election, but there is a good chance of an anti-Tory coalition government, one of whose first actions will be to apply to rejoin the EU or at least ask for Norway-style status.

I don’t know what I will do, I live in the Midlands since July and I have to say those that voted him in up here feel totally shafted. I have voted Tory all my voting life ( 42 years ) and although I couldn’t imagine a Labour government even if it meant that happening I would not vote Tory if Johnson ( or one of his mates ) was in charge. 
I suppose that makes me not anti - Tory but anti - Johnson.
 

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On 22/12/2020 at 19:04, PurpleCanary said:

Labour won't win the next election, but there is a good chance of an anti-Tory coalition government, one of whose first actions will be to apply to rejoin the EU or at least ask for Norway-style status.

You expect that much of a swing to the lib dems or you thinking more about an snp,labour coalition

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4 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

You expect that much of a swing to the lib dems or you thinking more about an snp,labour coalition

I am contemplating an alliance of Labour with pretty much every party apart from the Tories, so the SNP, the Welsh Nats, anyone in NI who isn't  an Ulster Unionist etc etc.

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15 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am contemplating an alliance of Labour with pretty much every party apart from the Tories, so the SNP, the Welsh Nats, anyone in NI who isn't  an Ulster Unionist etc etc.

That is exactly what they have done in Hungary. They couldn't beat Orban in smaller groups so they joined up into one big one. Hopefully it works. 

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11 minutes ago, Herman said:

That is exactly what they have done in Hungary. They couldn't beat Orban in smaller groups so they joined up into one big one. Hopefully it works. 

Thanks. Didn't know that. Of course Scotland may not be part of the 'UK' by 2024...🤓

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