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king canary

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The problem for Starmer is that whilst he's a solid candidate to win the middle-ground voters, it's easy for the Tories to win on a small government/low taxation platform whilst cannibalising their opponents policies, and he can't single-handedly appeal to all the groups Labour needs to win.

In the Blair/Brown days you had John Prescott and Alan Johnson to deal with the Unions, Gordon Brown and Donald Dewar to deal with the Scottish voters, Mandelson to talk to business (a surprisingly popular Business Secretary), etc . "New Labour" was essentially a collection of very diverse individuals fronted by Tony Blair. Though once Blair had a huge majority he just did whatever he wanted, with Brown desperately trying to claw him back.

Labour's been on a downward slide ever since Brown lost power. 

Liam Byrne leaving behind the "ha ha there's no money letter" for David Laws (Not surprising that David Laws' career got utterly torched as a result - there was some serious payback there ). Labour spending three months electing a successor whilst the Tories, Lib Dems and SNP took the opportunity in the vacuum to blame Labour for their financial spending.

A lack of Scottish politicians, his support for austerity and a resurgent SNP meant Ed Miliband lost Scotland.

Corbyn then won the Labour leadership as a backslash against Tory austerity, and ended up losing the Red Wall over Brexit.

 

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21 hours ago, Jools said:

You're correct on two points there, Van Winkerton --- Labour long forgot the working class and Biden didn't win the US election legally..   The US have also said FU to the working class and it'll come back to bite them on the ****.

What do you mean by "The US have also said FU to the working class"?

The presidential election? In which case are you conceding Biden won....legitimately?

Edited by How I Wrote Elastic Man
? Added

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The problem for Starmer is he is alienating Labour support at an alarming rate. Unions, pro-brexit, anti-brexit, working class, middle class liberal. He's siphoning off tiny margins of Tory support at the expense of huge swathes of his own.

I won't vote for him. He's a slick version of Boris. No integrity and no commitment to real Labour policies. He's offered zero opposition whilst Johnson has blundered his way through murdering 140,000 UK citizens. He hasn't held him to account over Covid, he hasn't held him to account over Brexit and now he is choosing to back Boris in opposition to teaching unions who want nothing more than a safe working environment. Why the **** are union subs going to support this **** who offers nothing back?

Never thought I'd reach this point, but I'm politically homeless. Will never vote Tory because I have a conscience and actually care about people, can't vote Labour because they don't stand for anything, can't vote Lib Dem because they're utterly vacuuous since Clegg sold their soul for 5 mins of being a Tory battering ram.... I'll vote Green next election. It'll be a wasted vote but **** it, none of the other **** deserve it.

Edited by kick it off

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1 minute ago, kick it off said:

The problem for Starmer is he is alienating Labour support at an alarming rate. Unions, pro-brexit, anti-brexit, working class, middle class liberal. He's siphoning off tiny margins of Tory support at the expense of huge swathes of his own.

I won't vote for him. He's a slick version of Boris. No integrity and no commitment to real Labour policies. He's offered zero opposition whilst Johnson has blundered his way through murdering 140,000 UK citizens. He hasn't held him to account over Covid, he hasn't held him to account over Brexit and now he is choosing to back Boris in opposition to teaching unions who want nothing more than a safe working environment. Why the **** are union subs going to support this **** who offers nothing back?

Never thought I'd reach this point, but I'm politically homeless. Will never vote Tory because I have a conscience and actually care about people, can't vote Labour because they don't stand for anything, can't vote Lib Dem because they're utterly vacuuous since Clegg sold their soul for 5 mins of being a Tory battering ram.... I'll vote Green next election. It'll be a wasted vote but **** it, none of the other **** deserve it.

Is he though? Polling suggests otherwise. 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Is he though? Polling suggests otherwise. 

Which polls? The ones where he is consistently losing to Boris? Boris who has killed 140,000 of our own with sheer incompetence?

image.thumb.png.71c13bf06587a2c3c6128f6f5f14fbb8.png

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So where does this show he's alienating labour support at an alarming rate? He's in the process of trying to bring the party back from the lowest lows that the Corbyn era brought in (now there is a leader that alienated labour supporters). It isn't perfect and I don't think he's amazing but for now all the evidence points to him rebuilding some of the support that Corbyn lost, not alienating them.

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I see a big problem with the phenomenon of the  'peak end rule' ...the bias that exists in decision making. My thinking or rather worry is that a good part of the electorate may forget much of what they've endured this last year, even the way this administration has handled the pandemic. They will remember the vaccination programme coming towards the end of a pandemic and the government will recover some of its lost reputation. Folk often have a bias towards their recent experience (bit like having a fantastic holiday only to break your arm on the last day....that's what you remember).

I can see @kick it offs point completely. I have felt similarly disenfranchised. No one party is just  where I want them to be. The Greens have often been closest but it's not a ticket to power nor electoral victory. I'm hoping for a left field collaboration of parties ahead. 

Edited by sonyc

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30 minutes ago, king canary said:

So where does this show he's alienating labour support at an alarming rate? He's in the process of trying to bring the party back from the lowest lows that the Corbyn era brought in (now there is a leader that alienated labour supporters). It isn't perfect and I don't think he's amazing but for now all the evidence points to him rebuilding some of the support that Corbyn lost, not alienating them.

Well Unite, Labour's biggest donors cut funding by 10% a few months ago and teachers are livid about him sidelining the NEU and NASUWT. I would wager that the support of unions and union members (NEU alone has 500k members) is a pretty critical demographic which he is in the process of entirely pissing off and really can't afford to lose (demographically and financially) 

His answer for "bringing the party back together" has been to say **** all and play lapdog to Boris whenever given the chance. His abject failure to provide any credible opposition is crippling the country. He even went on TV this morning to say Matt Hancock who broke transparency laws whilst dishing out contracts to his mates should keep his job!

I don't give a **** if he gets elected, he's a Tory in a red tie.

Edited by kick it off

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2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I see a big problem with the phenomenon of the  'peak end rule' ...the bias that exists in decision making. My thinking or rather worry is that a good part of the electorate may forget much of what they've endured this last year, even the way this administration has handled the pandemic. They will remember the vaccination programme coming towards the end of a pandemic and the government will recover some of its lost reputation. Folk often have a bias towards their recent experience (bit like having a fantastic holiday only to break your arm on the last day....that's what you remember).

I can see @kick it offs point completely. I have felt similarly disenfranchised. No one party is just  where I want them to be. The Greens have often been closest but it's not a ticket to power nor electoral victory. I'm hoping for a left field collaboration of parties ahead. 

FPTP makes people politically homeless. I felt it the last 2 or 3 years- I voted Labour but had no desire to see Corbyn as PM and generally felt like the Labour Party wasn't for me. 

Re Covid the polling generally paints a picture of a public who don't think it has been handled well but are generally sympathetic to the Government dealing with difficult decisions. In a purely political sense Labour has to be straight down the middle here- they don't want to come across as scoring partisan political points over a public health crisis, as cathatic as it may be. I don't think they've done a great job at being an opposition at times but I also believe tearing the Government a new one in parliment would be a stupid move right now.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

FPTP makes people politically homeless. I felt it the last 2 or 3 years- I voted Labour but had no desire to see Corbyn as PM and generally felt like the Labour Party wasn't for me. 

Re Covid the polling generally paints a picture of a public who don't think it has been handled well but are generally sympathetic to the Government dealing with difficult decisions. In a purely political sense Labour has to be straight down the middle here- they don't want to come across as scoring partisan political points over a public health crisis, as cathatic as it may be. I don't think they've done a great job at being an opposition at times but I also believe tearing the Government a new one in parliment would be a stupid move right now.

The public need to wake the **** up. Highest deaths per capita in the ****ing world. A real opposition might have pointed out that the vast majority of this was due to sheer incompetence as the government were too busy using the pandemic to give backhanders to their mates. The polling might tell a different story had Sir Keir done anything useful. The public should not be sympathetic to this government, it's the most corrupt bunch of ****s we've seen in generations. They do it because they can get away with it, as nobody is holding them to account. Maybe, if the opposition actually behaved like an opposition, the sympathy would evaporate. They don't and have let the Tories control the narrative, which is exactly what will continue to happen until Sunak or whoever succeeds Boris wins the next election. 

There's literally no credible basis for the public being sympathetic, you only have to look at the stats so either the public are entirely thick (credible to be fair), Labour have done **** all to oppose Boris' murderous incompetence, or some middle ground between the two.

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6 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Well Unite, Labour's biggest donors cut funding by 10% a few months ago and teachers are livid about him sidelining the NEU and NASUWT. I would wager that the support of unions and union members (NEU alone has 500k members) is a pretty critical demographic which he is in the process of entirely pissing off and really can't afford to lose (demographically and financially) 

His answer for "bringing the party back together" has been to say **** all and play lapdog to Boris whenever given the chance. His abject failure to provide any credible opposition is crippling the country. He even went on TV this morning to say Matt Hancock who broke transparency laws whilst dishing out contracts to his mates should keep his job!

I don't give a **** if he gets elected, he's a Tory in a red tie.

Bringing the party together is less important than attracting voters to be honest. This was always a problem under Corbyn- people focused on the growing membership and giving the members what they want without accepting that the membership of the Labour party (especially under Corbyn) was entirely unrepresentative of the general electorate.

I'm pretty left wing generally but I also recognise I'm to the left of most of the general public. So I'm unlikely to ever get a Government that gives me everything that I want because most people don't want what I do. 

There is no surer reflection of privilege than the left winger who can demand purity from the party even if that purity means they'll never be elected again, thus letting the Tories increase their hold on power over the years. 

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Just now, king canary said:

Bringing the party together is less important than attracting voters to be honest. This was always a problem under Corbyn- people focused on the growing membership and giving the members what they want without accepting that the membership of the Labour party (especially under Corbyn) was entirely unrepresentative of the general electorate.

I'm pretty left wing generally but I also recognise I'm to the left of most of the general public. So I'm unlikely to ever get a Government that gives me everything that I want because most people don't want what I do. 

There is no surer reflection of privilege than the left winger who can demand purity from the party even if that purity means they'll never be elected again, thus letting the Tories increase their hold on power over the years. 

I was on board with that position until the last few weeks. Keir isn't winning any ****ing elections so what's the point. Rather purity and losing than hypocrisy and still losing. Either way, you still lose so probably best to retain your integrity whilst doing it.

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1 minute ago, kick it off said:

The public need to wake the **** up. Highest deaths per capita in the ****ing world. A real opposition might have pointed out that the vast majority of this was due to sheer incompetence as the government were too busy using the pandemic to give backhanders to their mates. The polling might tell a different story had Sir Keir done anything useful. The public should not be sympathetic to this government, it's the most corrupt bunch of ****s we've seen in generations. They do it because they can get away with it, as nobody is holding them to account. Maybe, if the opposition actually behaved like an opposition, the sympathy would evaporate. They don't and have let the Tories control the narrative, which is exactly what will continue to happen until Sunak or whoever succeeds Boris wins the next election. 

There's literally no credible basis for the public being sympathetic, you only have to look at the stats so either the public are entirely thick (credible to be fair), Labour have done **** all to oppose Boris' murderous incompetence, or some middle ground between the two.

Thats your opinion, personally I disagree. I think Starmer going in harder might have made people like you feel warm and fuzzy like it did with Magic Grandpa but it wouldn't have been popular in general. 

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Thats your opinion, personally I disagree. I think Starmer going in harder might have made people like you feel warm and fuzzy like it did with Magic Grandpa but it wouldn't have been popular in general. 

Less popular than watching the government give billions of our money to their mates? Or the frequent incompetence that has literally killed tens of thousands? Hard sell to think Keir pointing it out would be less popular than the actions of the people doing it.

Corbyn has plenty of crosses to bear but one of his biggest failings was not going in hard enough against Brexit and letting the Tories scrape it through. The ERG provided more hostile opposition than Corbyn.

Edited by kick it off

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2 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I was on board with that position until the last few weeks. Keir isn't winning any ****ing elections so what's the point. Rather purity and losing than hypocrisy and still losing. Either way, you still lose so probably best to retain your integrity whilst doing it.

As far as I'm aware we haven't had a GE under Starmer yet, nor are we due one for a few years. So I'd suggest you're jumping the gun here.

It is totally your prerogative to prefer purity but personally I'd rather people who prize that over all else ****ed off to the Greens or set up a new party with Jezza at the head and left the Labour Party to it in all honesty. 

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

As far as I'm aware we haven't had a GE under Starmer yet, nor are we due one for a few years. So I'd suggest you're jumping the gun here.

It is totally your prerogative to prefer purity but personally I'd rather people who prize that over all else ****ed off to the Greens or set up a new party with Jezza at the head and left the Labour Party to it in all honesty. 

Nope, and despite the current PM murdering over 100k, dishing out billions to his mates, and letting them do whatever the **** they want whilst we all get fined/arrested for breathing in the wrong direction.... Starmer STILL trails considerably in the polls. He's totally ineffective, and this is from someone who supported him becoming leader for precisely the reasons you specify - he could win an election. He can't and he won't.

Even if he does how much better is he really than the Tories anyway? He has given us NOTHING in the way of traditional labour policies, or anything of any substance to get behind. Just vague soundbites. The shadow cabinet are a pathetic bunch bar Nandy and Lammy. Kate Green is horrific as shadow Education sec, almost as incompetent as big Gav.

Can you stop conflating disliking Starmer with supporting Corbyn too please, not accurate or even particularly logical. 

Edited by kick it off

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13 hours ago, king canary said:

FPTP makes people politically homeless. I felt it the last 2 or 3 years- I voted Labour but had no desire to see Corbyn as PM and generally felt like the Labour Party wasn't for me. 

Re Covid the polling generally paints a picture of a public who don't think it has been handled well but are generally sympathetic to the Government dealing with difficult decisions. In a purely political sense Labour has to be straight down the middle here- they don't want to come across as scoring partisan political points over a public health crisis, as cathatic as it may be. I don't think they've done a great job at being an opposition at times but I also believe tearing the Government a new one in parliment would be a stupid move right now.

Thanks for the reply @king canary. I agree about FPTP. Often I've simply had to vote for a party and someone as the lesser of two evils and to do my 'democratic duty'. Real Buh put up the political compass and I found  was very left and very liberal. 

I agree too about this being an odd time to be scoring points and the kind of steady opposition vibe he provides (perhaps I'm being too kind here because his opposition appears weak in the last 2/3 months after a promising start). No political party will ever match one's own beliefs. The best thing you can do (imo) is to try and do the things in life that match your own values. Politicians are not going to do it for you (or very rarely might they). WE can though try and support public services, working for them  or volunteering (fas I have done for decades) or in giving (setting up standing orders to causes) etc etc. In these  ways you get to try and make a difference. You just have to know that this is very small scale because the tide generally is far too great. Often I've found that I failed. But at least you can try because you believe in something.

When younger I thought I could change the world but you get to realise you can't and that one is literally a nobody. And yet,  even as a nobody, you can still be idealistic because that is life affirming. And a message to @kick it off you are someone doing a special job too and maybe in a decade or so, one or a few of your former pupils will remember a great teacher who influenced them in some way. I have read your anger and unhappiness and maybe there will be a reckoning of this current administration? 

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14 hours ago, kick it off said:

Nope, and despite the current PM murdering over 100k, dishing out billions to his mates, and letting them do whatever the **** they want whilst we all get fined/arrested for breathing in the wrong direction.... Starmer STILL trails considerably in the polls. He's totally ineffective, and this is from someone who supported him becoming leader for precisely the reasons you specify - he could win an election. He can't and he won't.

Even if he does how much better is he really than the Tories anyway? He has given us NOTHING in the way of traditional labour policies, or anything of any substance to get behind. Just vague soundbites. The shadow cabinet are a pathetic bunch bar Nandy and Lammy. Kate Green is horrific as shadow Education sec, almost as incompetent as big Gav.

Can you stop conflating disliking Starmer with supporting Corbyn too please, not accurate or even particularly logical. 

Thing is LOTO is probably the hardest job in UK politics. SKS has no power, and opposition is purely symbolic in the face of a massive Tory majority. The Covid announcements are being shamlessly used by the Conservatives as free party political broadcasts and there is a small vaccination bounce for Johnson that is totally unearned. The next election is 3+ years out, be patient and remember that there is a very real difference between a Labour government and this bunch of incompetant truth twisters.

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14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Thing is LOTO is probably the hardest job in UK politics. SKS has no power, and opposition is purely symbolic in the face of a massive Tory majority. The Covid announcements are being shamlessly used by the Conservatives as free party political broadcasts and there is a small vaccination bounce for Johnson that is totally unearned. The next election is 3+ years out, be patient and remember that there is a very real difference between a Labour government and this bunch of incompetant truth twisters.

Sorry BF but whilst I agree that LOTO is a difficult job, to say that opposion is purely symbolic in the face of a massive majority is plain wrong.

If you cast your mind back to last year there were several significant revolts amongst Tory backbenchers which could have reduced if not eliminated Johnson's majority and yet Starmer still failed to make an impact.

Of course it may be questionable whether those rebel MPs would have actually voted against the Government if Starmer had also been opposing them vigorously but the fact remains that Starmer totally failed in his role to hold the government to account and in the process collected a huge amount of baggage by assisting/enabling a bungling Tory government.

Yes, there are 3+ years to an election but Starmer has already set a pattern that I believe he will find very difficult to break, and he is unlikely to be handed so many good opportunities to do so, especially by the right wing press who were noticably far more critical of Johnson last year than Starmer/Labour. He won't get oppertunities like those again even if he does actually come up with any interesting alternatives to the Tory shambles which so far he has signally failed to do, and I'm afraid the idea that the way forward for Labour is to wave the Union Jack around a bit more was the final nail in his coffin as far as I'm concerned.

Not that I would have voted for him anyway, unless as I've said before (and Purple posted in similar terms) Labour forms some kind of electoral alliance with like-minded opposition parties - that is the only chance that Labour has of winning an election, the idea that they can beat the Tories on their own is delusional. Again I got the impression in the early days of his leadership that he understood that and would probably move in the direction but quite the reverse as it turns out based on his actions since.

So I'm afraid IMO it is already all over as far as the next GE is concerned. Of course it is entirely possible, in fact quite likely, that something really unexpected will happen and change the dynamic but without that some really dramatic change happening then the very best I think we can expect from the 2024 GE is that the Tories don't win an overall majority or get an exremely slim one, and even that would require SKS to up his game hugely compared to what we've seen so far.

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16 hours ago, kick it off said:

Nope, and despite the current PM murdering over 100k, dishing out billions to his mates, and letting them do whatever the **** they want whilst we all get fined/arrested for breathing in the wrong direction.... Starmer STILL trails considerably in the polls. He's totally ineffective, and this is from someone who supported him becoming leader for precisely the reasons you specify - he could win an election. He can't and he won't.

Even if he does how much better is he really than the Tories anyway? He has given us NOTHING in the way of traditional labour policies, or anything of any substance to get behind. Just vague soundbites. The shadow cabinet are a pathetic bunch bar Nandy and Lammy. Kate Green is horrific as shadow Education sec, almost as incompetent as big Gav.

Can you stop conflating disliking Starmer with supporting Corbyn too please, not accurate or even particularly logical. 

OK fair enough on the Corbyn point- but I would say it is pretty clear that from what you're saying that you'd rather a leader that pulls the party more to the left? Which to me would be unwise right now. We tried that with Corbyn and the population didn't respond well. I remember reading a study somewhere that the average voters social attitudes are to the right of the average Tory MP! So Starmer has to work to attract socially conservative voters too- there just aren't enough socially liberal, economically liberal types to win. 

I get the rage about the general public and their attitudes- I share it at times. But I think you massively overestimate the ability of LOTO to shape that public perception and Starmer can only work with the public he has, not the hypothetical one he might want.

My general opinion right now is the path to a Labour majority is somewhere between extremely difficult and borderline impossible due to the situation in Scotland. Getting angry about polls this far out from a general election feels like tilting at windmills, especially when you compare where Labour are in the polls compared to two years ago. The long term is, IMO, about how can Labour building working relationships with SNP, Lib Dems, Plyd Cymry etc etc. 

 

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20 hours ago, Icecream Snow said:

The problem for Starmer is that whilst he's a solid candidate to win the middle-ground voters, it's easy for the Tories to win on a small government/low taxation platform whilst cannibalising their opponents policies, and he can't single-handedly appeal to all the groups Labour needs to win.

In the Blair/Brown days you had John Prescott and Alan Johnson to deal with the Unions, Gordon Brown and Donald Dewar to deal with the Scottish voters, Mandelson to talk to business (a surprisingly popular Business Secretary), etc . "New Labour" was essentially a collection of very diverse individuals fronted by Tony Blair. Though once Blair had a huge majority he just did whatever he wanted, with Brown desperately trying to claw him back.

Labour's been on a downward slide ever since Brown lost power. 

Liam Byrne leaving behind the "ha ha there's no money letter" for David Laws (Not surprising that David Laws' career got utterly torched as a result - there was some serious payback there ). Labour spending three months electing a successor whilst the Tories, Lib Dems and SNP took the opportunity in the vacuum to blame Labour for their financial spending.

A lack of Scottish politicians, his support for austerity and a resurgent SNP meant Ed Miliband lost Scotland.

Corbyn then won the Labour leadership as a backslash against Tory austerity, and ended up losing the Red Wall over Brexit.

 

Whatever people's views of Blair/Brown are, they had a very strong team of heavyweights, not forgetting our very own Ed Balls, and pretty much any of the names you mention could have stepped up to be a credible leader. Today, there doesn't seem to be the depth of intellect in the Labour Party, and all this wokery nonsense must act as a brake on developing challenging new policies. At least, Starmer has time on his side to begin fixing it.

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11 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Whatever people's views of Blair/Brown are, they had a very strong team of heavyweights, not forgetting our very own Ed Balls, and pretty much any of the names you mention could have stepped up to be a credible leader. Today, there doesn't seem to be the depth of intellect in the Labour Party, and all this wokery nonsense must act as a brake on developing challenging new policies. At least, Starmer has time on his side to begin fixing it.

That is very true, SKS is pretty much a one man band which clearly doesn't help although the Tories are equally deficient in ability/intelligence and it doesn't seem to have held them back too much (at least in the voters' eyes 🙄).

But the impact of having an almost completely talentless bunch of career politicians in the HoC who are more concerned about their own careers than the good of country has been very obvious over the last few years, particularly as Sod's Law dictates that nearly all the decent ones are in the minor parties.

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Whatever people's views of Blair/Brown are, they had a very strong team of heavyweights, not forgetting our very own Ed Balls, and pretty much any of the names you mention could have stepped up to be a credible leader. Today, there doesn't seem to be the depth of intellect in the Labour Party, and all this wokery nonsense must act as a brake on developing challenging new policies. At least, Starmer has time on his side to begin fixing it.

And Cameron had a team if no marks but managed to take power from us. Because voters were disgusted at Blair because of WMD and Brown had a brain but not enough charisma to persuade 2008 was a world not just UK problem.

 

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3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That is very true, SKS is pretty much a one man band which clearly doesn't help although the Tories are equally deficient in ability/intelligence and it doesn't seem to have held them back too much (at least in the voters' eyes 🙄).

But the impact of having an almost completely talentless bunch of career politicians in the HoC who are more concerned about their own careers than the good of country has been very obvious over the last few years, particularly as Sod's Law dictates that nearly all the decent ones are in the minor parties.

Yeah it isn't an inspiring line up. I like Lisa Nandy but outside of that there isn't anyone else inspiring me off the top of my head.

I think it shows the paucity of options on both sides that Starmer seemed far and away the best choice as all the left of the party could offer was RLB and the moronic Richard Burgon. 

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10 hours ago, king canary said:

OK fair enough on the Corbyn point- but I would say it is pretty clear that from what you're saying that you'd rather a leader that pulls the party more to the left? Which to me would be unwise right now. We tried that with Corbyn and the population didn't respond well. I remember reading a study somewhere that the average voters social attitudes are to the right of the average Tory MP! So Starmer has to work to attract socially conservative voters too- there just aren't enough socially liberal, economically liberal types to win. 

I get the rage about the general public and their attitudes- I share it at times. But I think you massively overestimate the ability of LOTO to shape that public perception and Starmer can only work with the public he has, not the hypothetical one he might want.

My general opinion right now is the path to a Labour majority is somewhere between extremely difficult and borderline impossible due to the situation in Scotland. Getting angry about polls this far out from a general election feels like tilting at windmills, especially when you compare where Labour are in the polls compared to two years ago. The long term is, IMO, about how can Labour building working relationships with SNP, Lib Dems, Plyd Cymry etc etc. 

 

Why has Labour given up in Scotland - and to some extent Wales? Why is it a foregone conclusion that SNP is the only party that can provide a solution for Scots voters?

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8 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

And Cameron had a team if no marks but managed to take power from us. Because voters were disgusted at Blair because of WMD and Brown had a brain but not enough charisma to persuade 2008 was a world not just UK problem.

 

Not convinced that's true, even in 2010 Cameron barely won and had to get the Lib Dems to prop up his government. Clegg then traded the decimation of his party for a vote on AV.

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6 hours ago, Icecream Snow said:

Not convinced that's true, even in 2010 Cameron barely won and had to get the Lib Dems to prop up his government. Clegg then traded the decimation of his party for a vote on AV.

I was eluding to Labours shift to the right under Blair but that didn't stop them not being the majority party.

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7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Why has Labour given up in Scotland - and to some extent Wales? Why is it a foregone conclusion that SNP is the only party that can provide a solution for Scots voters?

I'd assume due to the independence debate- if you're a Scot Nat who wants an independence vote then you vote SNP, if you're a unionist who wants the opposite you vote Tory- voting Labour risks a coalition with the SNP based on the promise independence vote. 

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