New Labour Leader

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

On 19/02/2021 at 18:29, keelansgrandad said:

Only the swing voters.

As for members, there is no chance of CLP meetings at the moment and I wouldn't bother with a zoom meeting. SKS, or should I call him Mr Bond, is getting a clear ride at the moment but hopefully we can persuade him in the Autumn that you can revive a lettuce in ice water🤐

Maybe but it's already becoming clear that with Starmer's foolishness and poor judgement at the back end of last year he has already shot himself in one foot and he appears to be in the process of aligning the other barrel with his other foot 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/20/labour-mps-dismayed-at-orders-to-maintain-radio-silence-on-brexit

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

On 19/02/2021 at 18:29, keelansgrandad said:

Only the swing voters.

As for members, there is no chance of CLP meetings at the moment and I wouldn't bother with a zoom meeting. SKS, or should I call him Mr Bond, is getting a clear ride at the moment but hopefully we can persuade him in the Autumn that you can revive a lettuce in ice water🤐

The best he can achieve is a Kinnock type purge of Momentum from the party which for him has the downside of so much bad press sticking to him along the lines of not doing your dirty washing in public. In the case of Kinnock and Starker it can't be avoided. 

But it did leave the path clear for Kinnock's successor to have a clean run and it might be the same for Starter. Some one like Burnham can show he has experience of running things though by the time the opportunity comes around Labour might prefer a younger candidate similar to a young Blair. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The best he can achieve is a Kinnock type purge of Momentum from the party which for him has the downside of so much bad press sticking to him along the lines of not doing your dirty washing in public. In the case of Kinnock and Starker it can't be avoided. 

But it did leave the path clear for Kinnock's successor to have a clean run and it might be the same for Starter. Some one like Burnham can show he has experience of running things though by the time the opportunity comes around Labour might prefer a younger candidate similar to a young Blair. 

Might as well stick with Johnson if we are getting another Blair. We need an opposition not just a nodding head party.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Might as well stick with Johnson if we are getting another Blair.

We need an opposition not just a nodding head party.

Might as well stick with Johnson if we are getting another Blair  -  I really hope you are saying that with tongue firmly in cheek!

We need an opposition not just a nodding head party. - of course we do, 100%. However, that seems to be very unlikely to be Labour, since they have now elected three successive leaders none of whom have provided any real opposition at all despite a long period of  utter incompetence, economic failure and broken promises from the Tories and during which any decent opposition would have won any (or all) of the three general elections when our dysfunctional and malign government should have been held to account. That is pretty scary when we have effectively a two party system but of course it does explain why this country has become such an unholy mess with such a bleak future ahead of it.

Ed Miliband at least did understand the role of Leader of the Opposition and did his best to fulfill it but didn't really have the experience or personality to be successful, but neither Corbyn or Starmer seem to get it at all and if they can't manage to oppose PMs and governments as useless and disaster prone as TM's & BJ's then it's very difficult to see the situation improving.

Maybe RTB will be right and Starmer will prove to be merely an interim leader and will be replaced before the next election - there are certainly at least two obvious candidates who look as though they'd be much better candidates.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Might as well stick with Johnson if we are getting another Blair  -  I really hope you are saying that with tongue firmly in cheek!

We need an opposition not just a nodding head party. - of course we do, 100%. However, that seems to be very unlikely to be Labour, since they have now elected three successive leaders none of whom have provided any real opposition at all despite a long period of  utter incompetence, economic failure and broken promises from the Tories and during which any decent opposition would have won any (or all) of the three general elections when our dysfunctional and malign government should have been held to account. That is pretty scary when we have effectively a two party system but of course it does explain why this country has become such an unholy mess with such a bleak future ahead of it.

Ed Miliband at least did understand the role of Leader of the Opposition and did his best to fulfill it but didn't really have the experience or personality to be successful, but neither Corbyn or Starmer seem to get it at all and if they can't manage to oppose PMs and governments as useless and disaster prone as TM's & BJ's then it's very difficult to see the situation improving.

Maybe RTB will be right and Starmer will prove to be merely an interim leader and will be replaced before the next election - there are certainly at least two obvious candidates who look as though they'd be much better candidates.

TIC doesn't describe it.

Trouble with the party is, any faux pas is siezed upon by the right wing press. And instead of a leader who ignores it as part of the Westminster bubble, we delve as deep as we can and look upon errors as a slight on party policy.

The anti semitism slurs is proof enough. What other party would have had its own MPs and members agreeing with the accusers?

Recently, anyone who dared criticise Momentum was pilloried. Now the time is right for a new, proper leader but to be honest there isn't one.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Has the white knight said anything about the High court on the illegality of Hancocks PEP  decisions? And or the continuous support for a rabid murdering Saudi Arabia? No?, as expected.

[Van wink 2,994]

3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Might as well stick with Johnson if we are getting another Blair  -  I really hope you are saying that with tongue firmly in cheek!

We need an opposition not just a nodding head party. - of course we do, 100%. However, that seems to be very unlikely to be Labour, since they have now elected three successive leaders none of whom have provided any real opposition at all despite a long period of  utter incompetence, economic failure and broken promises from the Tories and during which any decent opposition would have won any (or all) of the three general elections when our dysfunctional and malign government should have been held to account. That is pretty scary when we have effectively a two party system but of course it does explain why this country has become such an unholy mess with such a bleak future ahead of it.

Ed Miliband at least did understand the role of Leader of the Opposition and did his best to fulfill it but didn't really have the experience or personality to be successful, but neither Corbyn or Starmer seem to get it at all and if they can't manage to oppose PMs and governments as useless and disaster prone as TM's & BJ's then it's very difficult to see the situation improving.

Maybe RTB will be right and Starmer will prove to be merely an interim leader and will be replaced before the next election - there are certainly at least two obvious candidates who look as though they'd be much better candidates.

You seem to criticise everyone CM, which to be honest is a position I can gain some traction with, when would anyone agree with everything a government does, or opposition proposes. My stated view has always been that I would prefer a centre left government,I don’t care which party or coalition delivers that. I had hoped that Starmer would engineer a credible position left of centre with a genuine prospect of gaining power but as time goes on Its becoming more and more clear to me that he doesn’t have enough to deliver. I was impressed with his initial clinical dissection of BJ at PMQ and his stance on JC but to be honest these are peripheral frivolities,  nothing further has impressed. I expect an opposition in waiting to be demanding recognition by the media and convincing the electorate of its relevance, but it ain’t there. In mitigation these are difficult times for an opposition, agree with government policy and you are acquiescent, disagree and you are against the national interest, also of course  we are miles away from an election so things may change.

But CM, going back to my initial phrase, instead of lobbing rocks, what is your proposal for the future and who has a realistic prospect of delivering it?

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Van wink

[BigFish 1,986]

The Tories have the largest majority since 1987 and the next election is not until May 2024. The idea that SKS can oppose anything successfully is fanciful. It's a long time to avoid giving the right wing media any hostages to fortune. No one was excited by sleepy Joe Biden but he won (easily) and that enabled the broader left to start enacting policy. Plenty of extra-parliamentary opposition to the Tories if that is what you want. A little patience is required in the House.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

You seem to criticise everyone CM, which to be honest is a position I can gain some traction with, when would anyone agree with everything a government does, or opposition proposes. My stated view has always been that I would prefer a centre left government,I don’t care which party or coalition delivers that. I had hoped that Starmer would engineer a credible position left of centre with a genuine prospect of gaining power but as time goes on Its becoming more and more clear to me that he doesn’t have enough to deliver. I was impressed with his initial clinical dissection of BJ at PMQ and his stance on JC but to be honest these are peripheral frivolities,  nothing further has impressed. I expect an opposition in waiting to be demanding recognition by the media and convincing the electorate of its relevance, but it ain’t there. In mitigation these are difficult times for an opposition, agree with government policy and you are acquiescent, disagree and you are against the national interest, also of course  we are miles away from an election so things may change.

But CM, going back to my initial phrase, instead of lobbing rocks, what is your proposal for the future and who has a realistic prospect of delivering it?

 

I think I react to events, and particularly with politicians, to what they actually do rather than what they may or may not say - with respect to Starmer I have said on a number of occasions that although I have never been much a fan of his I thought he got off to a very good start as leader of the party, yes by dismantling Johnson at PMQs but also by initiating some decisive actions on on Labour's internal problems.

But also as you say yourself, even if your terminology may vary from mine, I hoped he would create a credible and better alternative to the incompetence and corruption of the current government. Again like you since that early promise it seems to me ever clearer that he hasn't got what it takes and that, almost unbelieveably, he has saddled himself with a huge amount of baggage, on both Brexit and the the virus, that will make it impossible for him to ever hold this governemnt accountable for their actions in the way that a competent opposition should.

So frankly, although you appear to be suggesting that I'm unduly critical, it seems to me that my position, at least as far as Starmer and the Labour party, is concerned is remarkably similar to your own.

As to a proposal for the future then I'm afraid I don't have one, as I said earlier I genuinely believe that the future for the UK, well England anyway and sod's law dictates that I am English, is extremely bleak. Of course I do have actually have a proposal for the future but it is so to unlikely to happen that I don't really count it as a proposal, scarely even a pipe dream.

But for the record the only thing I believe that has any chance of turning around the horrendous mess this country has become is a written constitution, an elected head of state, and a parliament elected under some form of PR. But that simply isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future and there is no guarantee that even if it did we could turn this country around. But if it did come to pass then at least whatever happened would be as a result of a genuinely democratic process instead of the dysfunctional and undemocratic shambles that currently drives our inept governance and has left us with a two party system in which both parties are stuffed with second, third and fourth rate career politicians far more concerned with their own careers than any thought of the national interest.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Creative Midfielder

[Van wink 2,994]

22 minutes ago, BigFish said:

The Tories have the largest majority since 1987 and the next election is not until May 2024. The idea that SKS can oppose anything successfully is fanciful. It's a long time to avoid giving the right wing media any hostages to fortune. No one was excited by sleepy Joe Biden but he won (easily) and that enabled the broader left to start enacting policy. Plenty of extra-parliamentary opposition to the Tories if that is what you want. A little patience is required in the House.

Ok so he is biding his time, maybe the correct strategy, but inevitably when 2024 comes round his full record in opposition will be scrutinised, if he spends his time trying to avoid criticism in the media rather than promoting an alternative vision he is bound to fail IMO. He needs to be building up a groundswell of grass roots popular support, not with likes of most that post on here but with the real people of this country.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Van wink

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

12 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Ok so he is biding his time, maybe the correct strategy, but inevitably when 2024 comes round his full record in opposition will be scrutinised, is he spends his time trying to avoid criticism in the media rather than promoting an alternative vision he is bound to fail IMO.

Ok, I'm sure that agreeing with VW isn't going to become the new normal for me but I think on this occasion he is right.

On top of that I also think SKS has already given the right wing press several very significant hostages to fortune - for now they have been quietely filed away but you can be absolutely certain that as 2024 draws closer any attempt by SKS to hold the Tories to account is going to founder as the right wing press relentlessly point out how he acquiesced with Johnson's mistakes on both Brexit and Covid and his almost complete absence of any substance on the economy or the climate crisis. If SKS can't carve out a distinctive position now, and it appears that he can't, then his chances of doing so in the next three years are negligible IMO.

[Van wink 2,994]

10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Ok, I'm sure that agreeing with VW isn't going to become the new normal for me but I think on this occasion he is right.

On top of that I also think SKS has already given the right wing press several very significant hostages to fortune - for now they have been quietely filed away but you can be absolutely certain that as 2024 draws closer any attempt by SKS to hold the Tories to account is going to founder as the right wing press relentlessly point out how he acquiesced with Johnson's mistakes on both Brexit and Covid and his almost complete absence of any substance on the economy or the climate crisis. If SKS can't carve out a distinctive position now, and it appears that he can't, then his chances of doing so in the next three years are negligible IMO.

The only thing we fundamentally disagree on is Brexit, everything else is based on your inability to give any credit to this government even when they do something right, which ain’t that often, but does occasionally happen.I try to keep an open mind but would reiterate for the record my politics is centre left, a position that has been floating in a political vacuum for years.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Van wink

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

This may have been said here already, but the highly likely reality is that Labour cannot win the next election. So the only way to get rid of the Tories will be some kind of anti-grouping  - anything from the loosest of alliances to a fully-fledged coalition.

And Starmer, though he might not be ideal as a purely Labour leader (given that no-one ever can be), is a good choice (deliberate or accidental) to bring together enough disparate parties to get a majority in the Commons.

Amusingly ironic in this  neophiliac age of instant and superficial celebrity that two rather old-fashioned plodders, in the form of Biden and Starmer, are just what the world needs to bring it back to relative sanity.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

15 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The only thing we fundamentally disagree on is Brexit, everything else is based on your inability to give any credit to this government even when they do something right, which ain’t that often, but does occasionally happen.I try to keep an open mind but would reiterate for the record my politics is centre left, a position that has been floating in a political vacuum for years.

😃 Thanks VW, I knew that us being in agreement would be extremely short-lived and so it has proved  but it was fun while it lasted 😀

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

52 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Ok so he is biding his time, maybe the correct strategy, but inevitably when 2024 comes round his full record in opposition will be scrutinised, if he spends his time trying to avoid criticism in the media rather than promoting an alternative vision he is bound to fail IMO. He needs to be building up a groundswell of grass roots popular support, not with likes of most that post on here but with the real people of this country.

I always think an opposition leader ought to promote a statesman-like outlook. Sniping away at the government faults only gets you so far and if indulged too much one can appear a right, old misery. Being statesman-like means developing your own set of policies and promoting them as an alternative to the governments, so I agree with you VW that building up popular support is the best strategy for success.

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Ok so he is biding his time, maybe the correct strategy, but inevitably when 2024 comes round his full record in opposition will be scrutinised, if he spends his time trying to avoid criticism in the media rather than promoting an alternative vision he is bound to fail IMO. He needs to be building up a groundswell of grass roots popular support, not with likes of most that post on here but with the real people of this country.

The elctorate have very short memories, and most are paying little attention to politics at the moment. Johnson's litany of failures are largely forgotton due to the success of the vaccination programme that he had little to do with. That is how it works and SKS knows that. That said his rebuilding bond WAS a very significant policy anouncement,  and one that cleverly awaits as a trap for Sunak's budget in March.

That said @PurpleCanary's analysis is close to being write. SKS route to power is through the "anti-Johnson" vote e.g. not repelling the LibDem, Nats, Greens and most importantly traditional soft Tory voters. If he wins, it will be through a position that does not alienate rather than groundswells of popular support. Corbyn tried that, and we know how that ended.

[Van wink 2,994]

10 minutes ago, BigFish said:

The elctorate have very short memories, and most are paying little attention to politics at the moment. Johnson's litany of failures are largely forgotton due to the success of the vaccination programme that he had little to do with. That is how it works and SKS knows that. That said his rebuilding bond WAS a very significant policy anouncement,  and one that cleverly awaits as a trap for Sunak's budget in March.

That said @PurpleCanary's analysis is close to being write. SKS route to power is through the "anti-Johnson" vote e.g. not repelling the LibDem, Nats, Greens and most importantly traditional soft Tory voters. If he wins, it will be through a position that does not alienate rather than groundswells of popular support. Corbyn tried that, and we know how that ended.

I would be as happy as you to see SKS elected, but don’t assume an anti BJ vote will sweep him into power, in the same way that Biden got elected in the US. There was an unbelievable and naive arrogance on here before the last election from Labour supporters that completely misjudged the reality, I fear from what I am reading that the same may happen again in 2024 but in your defence that’s a long way off. Labour have forgotten how to win elections and if the strategy is to try and emulate the Biden strategy then thank you and goodnight. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Van wink

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

This may have been said here already, but the highly likely reality is that Labour cannot win the next election. So the only way to get rid of the Tories will be some kind of anti-grouping  - anything from the loosest of alliances to a fully-fledged coalition.

Name them, Purple -- Name the credible politicians within Labour, Lib-Dum and the Green Parties who would lead that fully fledged coalition? 

[Jools 584]

11 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Labour have forgotten how to win elections and if the strategy is to try and emulate the Biden strategy then thank you and goodnight. 

You're correct on two points there, Van Winkerton --- Labour long forgot the working class and Biden didn't win the US election legally..   The US have also said FU to the working class and it'll come back to bite them on the ****.

[Herman 9,717]

As has been said before nothing will change with our press and the billionaire owners having a massive say in how the country is run. And now with dodgy money piling into fakebook any non right wing party is seriously going to find a way through. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 hours ago, Jools said:

You're correct on two points there, Van Winkerton --- Labour long forgot the working class and Biden didn't win the US election legally..   The US have also said FU to the working class and it'll come back to bite them on the ****.

Wrong thread Jools.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Our CLP wanted to send a motion to the SKS that we had no confidence in him, but the Chairman pointed out there wasn't a quorum.

I think that shows the level of disappointment.

Trouble is, apart from Tessie, since 2010, all the party leaders, apart from Cable, have come from nowhere or certainly the backbenches.

Johnson was the most incompetent Foreign Secretary so proved he was incapable.

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Wrong thread Jools.

wrong planet, as far as he is concerned 😟

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Our CLP wanted to send a motion to the SKS that we had no confidence in him, but the Chairman pointed out there wasn't a quorum.

I think that shows the level of disappointment.

Trouble is, apart from Tessie, since 2010, all the party leaders, apart from Cable, have come from nowhere or certainly the backbenches.

Johnson was the most incompetent Foreign Secretary so proved he was incapable.

hope that Starmer will not loose more members and can get PM in another rigged election seems to be bigger in CLP's than what their brain cells tell them. CLP's are hopelessly outgunned with Blairites calling the shots and over 350.000 members have realised this and resigned.

The only chance for change at the next GE is to vote for Independent local candidates or the Green Party, whatever you may think of them. They can't be worse than that pseudo Tory/ nodding donkey.

[BigFish 1,986]

15 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

hope that Starmer will not loose more members and can get PM in another rigged election seems to be bigger in CLP's than what their brain cells tell them. CLP's are hopelessly outgunned with Blairites calling the shots and over 350.000 members have realised this and resigned.

The only chance for change at the next GE is to vote for Independent local candidates or the Green Party, whatever you may think of them. They can't be worse than that pseudo Tory/ nodding donkey.

Membership is higher now than it was for most of 2019, I think you have added a zero to the fall since the GE which is 35,000 (from 495,000 to 460,000). Membership is currently 512,000.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

28 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Membership is higher now than it was for most of 2019, I think you have added a zero to the fall since the GE which is 35,000 (from 495,000 to 460,000). Membership is currently 512,000.

Amazing that these people still have hope, I have not yet heard Starmer using the word socialism. Have you?

 

[Herman 9,717]

Because if he does then the rabid right wing press will use it to scare the natives.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

here is something for big fish to get his fangs into. Enjoy

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/02/the-utterly-useless-keir-starmer/

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

Because if he does then the rabid right wing press will use it to scare the natives.

But was it the policies that scuppered Labour at the GE? I still believe it was our pathetic Brexit stance.

I see no reason why SKS isn't promoting some of the 2019 policies which are opposite to the Tories.

[Herman 9,717]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But was it the policies that scuppered Labour at the GE? I still believe it was our pathetic Brexit stance.

I see no reason why SKS isn't promoting some of the 2019 policies which are opposite to the Tories.

The policies were not the problem. The basic problem was Mr Corbyn. He didn't engage with the general public and seemed to be only preaching to the converted. He wasn't popular at all. Even amongst friends who are Labour supporters.