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3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Still nothing to say about systemic racism of the Labour Party? The history of socialism is the history of anti-Semitism from Hitler to Corbyn. Starmer is an apologist for the haters. 

Why are you still saying your hero, Adolf, was leader of a socialist party?

I think you are Irving in disguise. 

And don't deny it. You want this country to be British only. You only want one party. You want rid of the left. And you only drivel on about Corbyn only because it suits. You don't want any other religion accept Protestant ones.

I hope you watch the Rob Rinder programmes about the holocaust and what Nationalism and blaming all the others can do. And what Trump has done to the US.

You might think Jools and yourself are being clever but you are trying to turn back the clock. Move on with the rest of us.

And SKS has sorted Corbyn. What more is there to say? Good day for the Right wing to bury bad news. Cummings, devolution, covid, brexit.

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28 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Why are you still saying your hero, Adolf, was leader of a socialist party?

I think you are Irving in disguise. 

And don't deny it. You want this country to be British only. You only want one party. You want rid of the left. And you only drivel on about Corbyn only because it suits. You don't want any other religion accept Protestant ones.

I hope you watch the Rob Rinder programmes about the holocaust and what Nationalism and blaming all the others can do. And what Trump has done to the US.

You might think Jools and yourself are being clever but you are trying to turn back the clock. Move on with the rest of us.

And SKS has sorted Corbyn. What more is there to say? Good day for the Right wing to bury bad news. Cummings, devolution, covid, brexit.

Has anyone noticed that the Conservative Party has the word "Party" in its name. But so do the Labour Party, and the Labour Party is a Socialist Party. So by the logic of RTB the Conservative Party is a Socialist Party. Who would have thunk it. RTB must be horrified, damn Tory socialist basta*ds.

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30 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Why are you still saying your hero, Adolf, was leader of a socialist party?

I think you are Irving in disguise. 

And don't deny it. You want this country to be British only. You only want one party. You want rid of the left. And you only drivel on about Corbyn only because it suits. You don't want any other religion accept Protestant ones.

I hope you watch the Rob Rinder programmes about the holocaust and what Nationalism and blaming all the others can do. And what Trump has done to the US.

You might think Jools and yourself are being clever but you are trying to turn back the clock. Move on with the rest of us.

And SKS has sorted Corbyn. What more is there to say? Good day for the Right wing to bury bad news. Cummings, devolution, covid, brexit.

You don't have to go very far back in your ancestry to find out that you're part French, Scottish, Irish, German etc etc. I have completed mine. Once you get back to the 1600's or before, it's very clear that the "English" are extremely mixed in heritage. Not only that but Protestants converted to Catholicism and vice versa. 

I think one day (perhaps next 100 years?), having strong views we currently understand as being to the 'right' will be considered very unacceptable for the vast majority of people - just how much though I'm of course unsure.

The future should be about what we can achieve together, with cooperation, with understanding and not about the division we get with nationalist thinking. Unfortunately, we are at a juncture in time where folk are becoming less open, less forward-thinking, more protectionist. Scotland and possibly Ireland could be next. 

I think your comment about 'moving on' is about right Keelansgrandad.

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3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Why are you still saying your hero, Adolf, was leader of a socialist party?

I think you are Irving in disguise. 

And don't deny it. You want this country to be British only. You only want one party. You want rid of the left. And you only drivel on about Corbyn only because it suits. You don't want any other religion accept Protestant ones.

I hope you watch the Rob Rinder programmes about the holocaust and what Nationalism and blaming all the others can do. And what Trump has done to the US.

You might think Jools and yourself are being clever but you are trying to turn back the clock. Move on with the rest of us.

And SKS has sorted Corbyn. What more is there to say? Good day for the Right wing to bury bad news. Cummings, devolution, covid, brexit.

Of course I want this country to be British only. We are after all the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Why would I want Britain to be something other than Britain? More to the point, why do you want Britain to be other than Britain? Unless of course, you support the ideas of Common Purpose and the Great Reset. I have often pointed out that you lefties do not understand the people of the United Kingdom, and you have provided the proof. The overwhelming majority of people in the country are patriotic and proud of their British heritage. Other countries are allowed to be proud of their heritage so why not us?

Yes, I would love to see the left extinguished as they are nothing but damaging to the lives of ordinary people. They are like parasites living off the efforts of hard-working people, keeping them suppressed, patronising and bullying at the same time.

You have no idea of my religious views so your comments are just projections of you. Corbyn is a wrecker, a man who has made a career out of student protesting, someone who never grew up. He would have torn the country apart had he become Prime Minister. Instead he just tore his party apart. SKS has not sorted Corbyn. Corbyn's allies have let him back into the party through the back door, making a mockery of the Labour Party leadership which is unable to control its membership. If Corbyn was any sort of man he would quit and form his own political party, but because he is a socialist he sits as unwelcome as a leech clamped to an open wound.

Nationalism is great. It defines the borders between cultures and allow those within to freely express traditions, heritage and culture without let or hindrance. Nationalism allows us to define our society in our own image. It also defends us against those who want to change our society against our will.

That's why you lost the Red Wall in the north because those people saw their culture and society undermined and no longer protected by Corbyn and the left. They remember Starmer's tenure as DPP and know he is yet another who will not protect them. You say move on. but to you moving on is surrendering. The Red Wall isn't for surrendering. It is never coming back to Labour, just as Scotland is never coming back to Labour. Bring on 2024 because you lot are getting obliterated.

Edited by Rock The Boat
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19 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

...They remember Starmer's tenure as DPP and know he is yet another who will not protect them. 

Do they ****. Try walking down the High Street in Mansfield or Hartlepool and ask what Kier Starmer's previous jobs were, what DPP stands for or who the current Director of Public Prosecutions is. The only reason anyone would know the answer would be if you and your kind start spreading more distortion on social media. 

 

Your claim to understand what the British public think would be laughable if your sort hadn't delivered a critical blow to the economy and fabric of this country by supporting Tory austerity and Brexit.

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9 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Do they ****. Try walking down the High Street in Mansfield or Hartlepool and ask what Kier Starmer's previous jobs were, what DPP stands for or who the current Director of Public Prosecutions is. The only reason anyone would know the answer would be if you and your kind start spreading more distortion on social media. 

 

Your claim to understand what the British public think would be laughable if your sort hadn't delivered a critical blow to the economy and fabric of this country by supporting Tory austerity and Brexit.

I think they voted Conservative at the last election when something called the Red Wall collapsed. Now why do you suppose that happened? And everybody in the north knows the backstory to the rape grooming gangs despite Labour councils trying to supress the truth.

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29 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Of course I want this country to be British only. We are after all the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Why would I want Britain to be something other than Britain? More to the point, why do you want Britain to be other than Britain? Unless of course, you support the ideas of Common Purpose and the Great Reset. I have often pointed out that you lefties do not understand the people of the United Kingdom, and you have provided the proof. The overwhelming majority of people in the country are patriotic and proud of their British heritage. Other countries are allowed to be proud of their heritage so why not us?

Yes, I would love to see the left extinguished as they are nothing but damaging to the lives of ordinary people. They are like parasites living off the efforts of hard-working people, keeping them suppressed, patronising and bullying at the same time.

You have no idea of my religious views so your comments are just projections of you. Corbyn is a wrecker, a man who has made a career out of student protesting, someone who never grew up. He would have torn the country apart had he become Prime Minister. Instead he just tore his party apart. SKS has not sorted Corbyn. Corbyn's allies have let him back into the party through the back door, making a mockery of the Labour Party leadership which is unable to control its membership. If Corbyn was any sort of man he would quit and form his own political party, but because he is a socialist he sits as unwelcome as a leech clamped to an open wound.

Nationalism is great. It defines the borders between cultures and allow those within to freely express traditions, heritage and culture without let or hindrance. Nationalism allows us to define our society in our own image. It also defends us against those who want to change our society against our will.

That's why you lost the Red Wall in the north because those people saw their culture and society undermined and no longer protected by Corbyn and the left. They remember Starmer's tenure as DPP and know he is yet another who will not protect them. You say move on. but to you moving on is surrendering. The Red Wall isn't for surrendering. It is never coming back to Labour, just as Scotland is never coming back to Labour. Bring on 2024 because you lot are getting obliterated.

Your thoughts are so dangerous. You hind behind something other than your Nationalistic mumbo jumbo. 

Britain is a great multicultural society because of those from other places like my grandfather from Russia and Granny from Ireland.

Our culture is based on the melting pot of ideas, music, writing etc from diverse beliefs.

The outdated ideas of Jools and yourself are based on a history of domination, exploitation and corruption.

That you support Trump and Boris is clear evidence you are a dinosaur.

 

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11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Your thoughts are so dangerous. You hind behind something other than your Nationalistic mumbo jumbo. 

Britain is a great multicultural society because of those from other places like my grandfather from Russia and Granny from Ireland.

Our culture is based on the melting pot of ideas, music, writing etc from diverse beliefs.

The outdated ideas of Jools and yourself are based on a history of domination, exploitation and corruption.

That you support Trump and Boris is clear evidence you are a dinosaur.

 

Your woke, PC culture is the antithesis of everything that is creative, original, stimulating and/or entertaining. Your identity politics seeks to shutdown and cancel everything that does not conform to your Marxist ideology. 

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Oh dear! RTB says:

 "Nationalism allows us to define our society in our own image".

 Totally ignoring the FACT that "us" includes precisely what Keelan describes: 

"Britain is a great multicultural society because of those from other places like my grandfather from Russia and Granny from Ireland. Our culture is based on the melting pot of ideas, music, writing etc from diverse beliefs."

By its nature that requires an open and tolerant society in which a multitude of perspectives get to coexist. The only societies that exhibit the homogeneity required for RTBs brand of nationalism are dictatorships that enforce that homogeneity through oppression, punishment, and genocide (Think Soviet Union, think N*zi Germany etc). And we have plenty of historical examples which enable us to choose rationally and morally between the alternatives. Thankfully, RTB is living in cloud cuckoo land if he ever thinks the UK is going down the road to despotic nationalism.

Edited by horsefly

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Of course I want this country to be British only. We are after all the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Why would I want Britain to be something other than Britain? More to the point, why do you want Britain to be other than Britain? Unless of course, you support the ideas of Common Purpose and the Great Reset. I have often pointed out that you lefties do not understand the people of the United Kingdom, and you have provided the proof. The overwhelming majority of people in the country are patriotic and proud of their British heritage. Other countries are allowed to be proud of their heritage so why not us?

Yes, I would love to see the left extinguished as they are nothing but damaging to the lives of ordinary people. They are like parasites living off the efforts of hard-working people, keeping them suppressed, patronising and bullying at the same time.

You have no idea of my religious views so your comments are just projections of you. Corbyn is a wrecker, a man who has made a career out of student protesting, someone who never grew up. He would have torn the country apart had he become Prime Minister. Instead he just tore his party apart. SKS has not sorted Corbyn. Corbyn's allies have let him back into the party through the back door, making a mockery of the Labour Party leadership which is unable to control its membership. If Corbyn was any sort of man he would quit and form his own political party, but because he is a socialist he sits as unwelcome as a leech clamped to an open wound.

Nationalism is great. It defines the borders between cultures and allow those within to freely express traditions, heritage and culture without let or hindrance. Nationalism allows us to define our society in our own image. It also defends us against those who want to change our society against our will.

That's why you lost the Red Wall in the north because those people saw their culture and society undermined and no longer protected by Corbyn and the left. They remember Starmer's tenure as DPP and know he is yet another who will not protect them. You say move on. but to you moving on is surrendering. The Red Wall isn't for surrendering. It is never coming back to Labour, just as Scotland is never coming back to Labour. Bring on 2024 because you lot are getting obliterated.

I guess at least you're being honest in what you think and beleive. I struggle to understand however. Just what does "British Only" mean? Who is British? Who isn't British? Folk born here in the 1960s who were asked to help labour shortages and have paid tax all their lives? People from other countries who fought with our troops?

Can you not be 'left' and patriotic? As someone you would call 'left' (whatever this really means....do you mean open minded or liberal or a 'woke') you want "extinguished"? You must hold quite a deep hatred for folk on this forum to say this? A real deep-seated dislike? Or are you wanting a reaction to create an argument?

How might you want to "extinguish" people you don't like or have different views to you? Isn't this language close to hate speech? Would you act out your feelings RTB? It's very troubling. Though at least as mentioned you've been very open right here on a public forum.

As I've stated I don't understand..I read the words and again and again I have lots more questions.

Would you prefer folk not to have opinions here and therefore not to post them? If so, do you boil with anger reading them? Just asking so that I know not to inflame any of those feelings in the future. I'm not the kind to be abusive and am peace loving. 

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Do you think we are all spending far, far too much time on pointless debates (I'm waiting the 7 day discussion on whether or not Pol Pot enjoyed folk music) with people we are not going to convince to change their mind and getting far too upset doing it?

 

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Your woke, PC culture is the antithesis of everything that is creative, original, stimulating and/or entertaining. Your identity politics seeks to shutdown and cancel everything that does not conform to your Marxist ideology. 

Far from it. I believe in progressive changes to the World. Revolution is not an answer.  But your insistence that nothing from left field is worth attention just illustrates your intransigence and unwillingness to think of others as well as yourself. 

And your ridiculous attitude that Britain is still Great rather than accepting it is a nice place to exist is why Jools and yourself are the laughing stock you are.

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3 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Do you think we are all spending far, far too much time on pointless debates (I'm waiting the 7 day discussion on whether or not Pol Pot enjoyed folk music) with people we are not going to convince to change their mind and getting far too upset doing it?

 

 

Agreed. But it is difficult to ignore outright lying. I did stop posting for a while because of the very same thing but the second lockdown and the need to self isolate drew me back to the site.

I may have just ignore it for a while.

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16 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Do you think we are all spending far, far too much time on pointless debates (I'm waiting the 7 day discussion on whether or not Pol Pot enjoyed folk music) with people we are not going to convince to change their mind and getting far too upset doing it?

 

 

I just want to understand, nothing more. I've nothing to sell, no point of view to push with much strong conviction in the sense that I want to change someone else's.

My own view (as expressed before here) is that as you get older, you should become more open minded and not merely rest lazily on a life experience (that for me is like a death before the time has come), to be more uncertain (because that means asking questions....and is life affirming), to be more humble. That would be my campaign if I had one (and I doubt I would get any followers BB! ....Haha)

I'm interested in why people feel the way they do. That seems to me anyway as interesting and provides for purposeful conversation. It is generative and not merely adversarial.

Edited by sonyc

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57 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I just want to understand, nothing more. I've nothing to sell, no point of view to push with much strong conviction in the sense that I want to change someone else's.

Thanks Sony and KG. I guess I just had a moment where I look at the debates here now and wonder if it is actually something I want to be part of anymore. 

Fair dos to you two (and others) i get the feeling that although you have a fairly consistent world view you are interested in hearing and discussing and it does remind me  bit why I got more involved here during lockdown 1.

 

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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Do you think we are all spending far, far too much time on pointless debates (I'm waiting the 7 day discussion on whether or not Pol Pot enjoyed folk music) with people we are not going to convince to change their mind and getting far too upset doing it?

 

 

Do you think you could get any more patronising? People post of their own free will and do not require your permission to do so. Why are you here if you find it all so pointless?

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3 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Thanks Sony and KG. I guess I just had a moment where I look at the debates here now and wonder if it is actually something I want to be part of anymore. 

Fair dos to you two (and others) i get the feeling that although you have a fairly consistent world view you are interested in hearing and discussing and it does remind me  bit why I got more involved here during lockdown 1.

 

I take the occasional week off ....great for recovering perspectuve if it starts to weaken. That's what holidays are for too.

Lots of very clever (and also very amusing) people are on this forum. Never ceases to amaze me.

I find I'm a passenger so often. That is helpful of course 😉

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7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

 People post of their own free will and do not require your permission to do so. Why are you here if you find it all so pointless?

Thats the question that i am asking.   

I guess I came here more often  because there was what I thought was lively and worthwhile debate about a matter of huge interest (and as I had more time on my hands).

Equally though I am a bit frustrated at the way it has gone with the same dominant voices shouting down anyone that dares venture a different opinion or put forward an idea for discussion or throws a cut and paste in just to stir it up.

You are probably right though.   if I dont like it I don't have to bother.

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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I have to say I think RTB is just playing bait the libs and I have fallen for it like most of the posters on this thread. The “n4zis were socialists” is exhibit A for the prosecution case, but once I decided he’s just trolling us, it just looks more and more obvious. Jools isn’t much better but at least he appears to be a genuine example of his own lunatic fringe.

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26 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I have to say I think RTB is just playing bait the libs and I have fallen for it like most of the posters on this thread. The “n4zis were socialists” is exhibit A for the prosecution case, but once I decided he’s just trolling us, it just looks more and more obvious. Jools isn’t much better but at least he appears to be a genuine example of his own lunatic fringe.

I have wondered if I'm being played too (and I'm naive enough to fall for it).

And yet, in my defence I rarely get annoyed to be honest, simply  wanting to know the underlying thoughts and psychology at work.

I believe Jools trolls and he shows it with some humour at least. 

What I often don't understand is that there is a right wing government in power (a quite appalling one) plus a Brexit in tow. Further, there may be a secession of Scotland within a couple of years....yet still those claiming to be on the right feel so annoyed as to be posting all this stuff.

They are getting now what they wish for, so why bother with all the 'losers' on this forum (not my term). If I thought and believed what they appear to, I wouldn't bother spending a minute on these threads! Would just leave folk to it.

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5 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Far from it. I believe in progressive changes to the World. Revolution is not an answer.  But your insistence that nothing from left field is worth attention just illustrates your intransigence and unwillingness to think of others as well as yourself. 

And your ridiculous attitude that Britain is still Great rather than accepting it is a nice place to exist is why Jools and yourself are the laughing stock you are.

Britain being a nice place to live is great isn't it? And how does wanting to conserve ones country as a great place to live make true conservatives a laughing stock? I'm talking true conservatives as in ordinary folk with conservative beliefs, not the pretend conservatives in parliament who are mostly liberal. 

The majority of people in the West don't want Socialism because they know it's an idea that has failed throughout history -- Types of Socialism are failing today and they'll fail in the future because a Socialist Utopia is a land of make-believe -- Capitalism will trump Socialism every time, because the former is based in reality whilst the latter is based on Brer Rabbit...

It's also the opposite of progress.

 

 

Edited by Jools

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3 minutes ago, Jools said:

Britain being a nice place to live is great isn't it? And how does wanting to conserve ones country as a great place to live make true conservatives a laughing stock? I'm talking true conservatives as in ordinary folk with conservative beliefs, not the pretend conservatives in parliament who are mostly liberal. 

The majority of people in the West don't want Socialism because they know it's an idea that has failed throughout history -- Types of Socialism are failing today and they'll fail in the future because a Socialist Utopia is a land of make-believe -- Capitalism will trump Socialism every time, because the former is based in reality and the latter is the opposite of progress.

 

 

Utterly meaningless piffle as usual. You haven't defined a single thing in this vague nonsensical rant. Democratic socialism has been a major force in Europe and continues to be. And the most radical socialist policy ever enacted in this country was the introduction of the National Health Service. The idea that all people of the UK should get free health care based on need rather than ability to pay was condemned by the Conservatives at the time as a dangerous assault on the principles of capitalism. In poll after poll the NHS remains the "ordinary persons" most respected and revered institution. Are you seriously going to claim that "ordinary people" don't regard the introduction of the NHS as "progress", that they are all clamouring to have it privatised to return it to the capitalist norm? 

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2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Utterly meaningless piffle as usual. You haven't defined a single thing in this vague nonsensical rant. Democratic socialism has been a major force in Europe and continues to be. And the most radical socialist policy ever enacted in this country was the introduction of the National Health Service. The idea that all people of the UK should get free health care based on need rather than ability to pay was condemned by the Conservatives at the time as a dangerous assault on the principles of capitalism. In poll after poll the NHS remains the "ordinary persons" most respected and revered institution. Are you seriously going to claim that "ordinary people" don't regard the introduction of the NHS as "progress", that they are all clamouring to have it privatised to return it to the capitalist norm? 

Your Socialist ideology both created the NHS and destroyed it -- It functioned quite well until you (Blair/Brown) opened the service to the world -- For at least 25 years or more there's been too many people using it who don't contribute to the pot.

The NHS is sadly no longer fit for purpose because of a lack of NI contributions that can't be feasibly increased.

And I'm mightily tired with the lib/lab/con using it as a political football..

I would suggest the German system 👍

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5 minutes ago, Jools said:

Your Socialist ideology both created the NHS and destroyed it --

 

Utter bollox as usual. I think you will find that the "ordinary member of the public" doesn't think the NHS has been destroyed. Any difficulties it encounters has been caused by underfunding by Conservative governments. The public want the NHS properly funded not rejected for a privatised bast*rdisation. Even this bunch of Tory tw*ts knows that the NHS is so popular with the populous that it can't resile from supporting the SOCIALIST philosophy of providing health care that is free to all according to need.

You ought to be grateful that the NHS props up care homes, but of course you're not. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jools said:

Your Socialist ideology both created the NHS and destroyed it -- It functioned quite well until you (Blair/Brown) opened the service to the world -- For at least 25 years or more there's been too many people using it who don't contribute to the pot.

The NHS is sadly no longer fit for purpose because of a lack of NI contributions that can't be feasibly increased.

And I'm mightily tired with the lib/lab/con using it as a political football..

I would suggest the German system 👍

Are you having a go at pensioners now? Because they are by far the main users of the NHS, and are a drain on the country's resources in other ways too.

 

It can't be immigrants you refer to, as it is demonstrably clear that on average every new immigrant contributes more to the UK economy than the average British citizen.

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